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RMT Industrial Action - EMR

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LowLevel

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Am I right in thinking the TMs and other staff have their Personal Needs Breaks on board sometimes? Think it’s something to do with ts and cs. Don’t quote me though.
Yes, they are entitled to breaks on board and are permitted to block off the table bays nearest the kitchen for this purpose. There are still however signs in the kitchen reminding them of the need to remain professional.

It allowed the company to roster them more tightly. Train Managers now have PNBs booked at stations though with the lack of catering facilities on the 360s.
 
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Killingworth

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So if a group of happy football supporters meet up to go to watch the Shrimps at 7.30 on an East Midlands train and load the tables with open cans, over half consumed before leaving at Piccadilly, what should have happened? (The Owls lost!)

Sorry, I've drifted away from the RMT dispute.
 

Bald Rick

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"Where reasonable notice is, or has been, given prohibiting intoxicating liquor on any train service, no person shall have any intoxicating liquor with him on it, or attempt to enter such a train with intoxicating liquor with him."

what if it is on the inside ;)
 

MichaelAMW

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I've always taken rules like this to allow the railway to assert itself if needs be. E.g. every person who fails to present a valid ticket (exemptions aside) has committed a strict-liability offence and could be easily prosecuted, but as we all know that is frequently not the way it's dealt with - but it can be if necessary. Similarly, in practice a guard isn't going to be examining people's shopping but, say when a football match is involved, it does mean the byelaw/restriction may be invoked as a preventitive measure. Of course, there may be some over-zealous individuals out there but I doubt they are working in line with their employer's intention when the rule was created.
 

43066

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AIUI 360s are covered by St P, Kettering and Derby Drivers; St P Kettering, Derby and Nottingham TMs. as you say, not all of the Links at Derby / Nottingham though.

Correct re. drivers (and one drivers’ link at Derby sign the 180s).

I’m 99% sure at least some Sheffield TMs also do connect work…
 
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LowLevel

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Correct re. drivers (and one drivers’ link at Derby sign the 180s).

I’m 99% sure at least some Sheffield TMs also do connect work…
Sheffield TMs don't currently sign 360s unless they've learned them voluntarily.
 

Craig1122

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Interesting re alcohol when the Tfl restriction is from 'drinking or carrying open containers' which seems more reasonable given that people may wish to carry shopping home!
 

STINT47

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If a member of railway staff suspects your carrying alcohol do they have tge power to search through your bags?

If I was sat on a train and a staff member came up and asked to look through my belongings I would be reluctant to allow this.

If it were to happen I would expect two members of staff to be present st the time and any items confiscated to be clearly noted along with who to contact about the search/confiscation. Similar to a bag search at work.

Maybe I'm being paranoid but I wouldn't put it past a rogue staff member to search someone's shopping so they could take a bottle of nice wine hone that evening.
 

the sniper

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Are the TMs searching peoples bags for alcohol while also barricaded in the carriage with the galley though...?

Fascinating stuff.
 

bunnahabhain

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Maybe I'm being paranoid but I wouldn't put it past a rogue staff member to search someone's shopping so they could take a bottle of nice wine hone that evening.
Yes I'm sure they'd be more interested in throwing away a £31k a year salary for the chance of stealing a bottle of wine that at best would be £10... What utter rot.
 

185

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Wonder if they are eyeing up the 350/2s instead?
Could just go to B&Q and buy a job lot of front doors..

Seriously though, wonder how much a modification would cost... Theres still another 15 years in those units, and they do earn their keep unlike many newer trains.

Extra revenue taken could part fund them.
 
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Eccles1983

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Could just go to B&Q and buy a job lot of front doors..

Seriously though, wonder how much a modification would cost... Theres still another 15 years in those units, and they do earn their keep unlike many newer trains.

Extra revenue taken could part fund them.

A lot.

The safety case for the train would need to be re-written, as the crash worthyness and structural integrity would be seriously compromised.

That's before the rewiring of the cab and coupler potentially.

That's if you can get the rosco to agree the changes.
 

whoosh

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Sadly this is hardly an unexpected outcome as it has long been obviously that most of those on the regional side take pride in their jobs and actually want to be helpful where they can whilst most of those on the intercity side are happy to do as little as possible to collect their paycheque. I imagine one of the biggest issues with the TMs is that the 360s don't have a large enough first class area at one end of the train for the staff to treat as their personal area to spend time on their phones or talking about anything and everything other than work.

Senior Conductors are on ex-Central Trains terms and conditions. They have a booked PNB which during late running they will take, plus the walking time to and from the messroom, and their next service will go out late if necessary. They earn commission for selling tickets.
Train Managers have no entitlement to a PNB, taking 'natural breaks' at termini (which don't happen under late running) or take them 'when able' on board the train. They do not earn commission.

TM's issue is they don't want floodgates opened for Meridians to have one TM - there was an issue with a call for aid blocking Driver/Guard communication was how it was explained to me when MML TM's went on strike for 2 Guards on multiple 222s.
The Corby services are geographically too far away from the current network operated by the SCs for that to make any sense. Personally I'd be looking at making all of the TMs across the franchise redundant with an expanded role for SCs across the whole franchise (of course those TMs willing to transfer to the SC grade would be able to maintain their jobs) both because of the more favourable attitude amongst the SC colleagues and also to improve productivity and flexibility.

I think it says a lot that several TMs transferred to the Senior Conductor rôle when Midland Mainline and Central Trains merged into East Midlands Trains. Senior Conductors are on a 37 hour week, TMs on 35 and a higher salary so you might think it strange, but SC's terms and conditions are much more favourable - including a 4 day week with standard repeating rest day pattern so people know what their days off are even in two years time for example. I think their maximum shift length is 10.5 hours - but if it isn't it's still less than a TMs.
TMs number of rest days can change when the timetable does, and even varies between depots and links. Maximum shift length is 12 hours.

There's no way the company want SC terms and conditions across the board - other way round more like!
Only one person went from SC to TM at the merge.
 
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Deafdoggie

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If a member of railway staff suspects your carrying alcohol do they have tge power to search through your bags?

If I was sat on a train and a staff member came up and asked to look through my belongings I would be reluctant to allow this.

If it were to happen I would expect two members of staff to be present st the time and any items confiscated to be clearly noted along with who to contact about the search/confiscation. Similar to a bag search at work.

Maybe I'm being paranoid but I wouldn't put it past a rogue staff member to search someone's shopping so they could take a bottle of nice wine hone that evening.
Only the police have the power of search. Anyone can ask you if they can look through your things, but your right is to say no. There is nothing they can then do other than call the police and hope they arrive before you leave.
They can't detain you unless they are certain of an offence having being committed. Only the police can detain "on suspicion of..."
 

Watershed

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Only the police have the power of search. Anyone can ask you if they can look through your things, but your right is to say no. There is nothing they can then do other than call the police and hope they arrive before you leave.
They can't detain you unless they are certain of an offence having being committed. Only the police can detain "on suspicion of..."
Not quite correct I'm afraid - see section 24A of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 - any person has the power to arrest and detain someone who they observe committing an indictable offence, or who they reasonably suspect of having committed an indictable offence.

Understandably, the power of arrest is only exercisable if the police cannot assist, and only applies until the police arrive - but the standard of evidence required is exactly the same as that required of a police officer.

The significant difference is that the "any person" power of arrest doesn't apply to summary-only offences - such as contravening the Railway Byelaws.
 

Deafdoggie

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Not quite correct I'm afraid - see section 24A of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 - any person has the power to arrest and detain someone who they observe committing an indictable offence, or who they reasonably suspect of having committed an indictable offence.

Understandably, the power of arrest is only exercisable if the police cannot assist, and only applies until the police arrive - but the standard of evidence required is exactly the same as that required of a police officer.

The significant difference is that the "any person" power of arrest doesn't apply to summary-only offences - such as contravening the Railway Byelaws.
I live and learn! Obviously being of such good character I've never had anyone arrest me!
 

LowLevel

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Only the police have the power of search. Anyone can ask you if they can look through your things, but your right is to say no. There is nothing they can then do other than call the police and hope they arrive before you leave.
They can't detain you unless they are certain of an offence having being committed. Only the police can detain "on suspicion of..."
This whole debate has nothing to do with industrial action. For those interested in how it works I suggest you travel on a Robin Hood line train on a Friday or Saturday evening and you'll get the full performance, quite probably witness at least one arrest and see how it's managed, without the silly flapping about bag searches that generally don't happen.

I've had precisely one security guard decide they're going to start going through someone's bag in all the time I've been working those trains and it was the contractor I removed from the service, not the passenger (who did not in fact have any booze on them).

If however you *do* have alcohol concealed on boarding and decide screw 'em, I'm having a drink on the move, as some occasionally do - you'll be dumped off the train at the next stop and reported, and possibly arrested too.
 

Deafdoggie

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This whole debate has nothing to do with industrial action. For those interested in how it works I suggest you travel on a Robin Hood line train on a Friday or Saturday evening and you'll get the full performance, quite probably witness at least one arrest and see how it's managed, without the silly flapping about bag searches that generally don't happen.

I've had precisely one security guard decide they're going to start going through someone's bag in all the time I've been working those trains and it was the contractor I removed from the service, not the passenger (who did not in fact have any booze on them).

If however you *do* have alcohol concealed on boarding and decide screw 'em, I'm having a drink on the move, as some occasionally do - you'll be dumped off the train at the next stop and reported, and possibly arrested too.
And this, I think, is the sensible approach. If only all railway employees deployed your level of common sense in all matters. Alas, they don't.
 

LowLevel

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And this, I think, is the sensible approach. If only all railway employees deployed your level of common sense in all matters. Alas, they don't.
I can only say that I know all of the nearly 200 guards who work trains on the Robin Hood line at least in passing and bar one or two possible grey areas that I'd still say almost definitely not, I don't think any of them would walk down the train on a Saturday night asking to check bags for alcohol. Neither would the regular security guards - though sometimes they do get people in to sub if they're short staffed who don't normally work on the trains.
 

43066

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This whole debate has nothing to do with industrial action. For those interested in how it works I suggest you travel on a Robin Hood line train on a Friday or Saturday evening and you'll get the full performance, quite probably witness at least one arrest and see how it's managed, without the silly flapping about bag searches that generally don't happen.

I've had precisely one security guard decide they're going to start going through someone's bag in all the time I've been working those trains and it was the contractor I removed from the service, not the passenger (who did not in fact have any booze on them).

If however you *do* have alcohol concealed on boarding and decide screw 'em, I'm having a drink on the move, as some occasionally do - you'll be dumped off the train at the next stop and reported, and possibly arrested too.

That all seems perfectly reasonable.

I’m not generally a fan of “dry trains” either. After all, part of the reason people choose to travel by train is so they can have a drink, and rightly so. However clearly there are certain routes and times where they’re the only sensible approach to combating some of the appalling behaviour alcohol contributes to, which you guys are all too often on the receiving end of.

I’ve never travelled on the Robin Hood line personally but the fact security guards are needed speaks volumes.
 

Robertj21a

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It's always good to read input from 'LowLevel', full of pragmatic common sense.
Do many lines routinely employ security guards - just recently, or long term?
Has anything else been attempted to keep troublemakers off the trains?
 

bunnahabhain

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It's always good to read input from 'LowLevel', full of pragmatic common sense.
Do many lines routinely employ security guards - just recently, or long term?
Has anything else been attempted to keep troublemakers off the trains?
Quite a few places have them these days, they're usually branded "Travelsafe Officers". EMR use them between Lincoln and Boston during the week as well, and in general a team of them are based at Nottingham. The full time staff are a decent bunch of chaps who know the regulars well enough and usually head off the problems before they occur.

The dry trains were brought in on the Robin Hood Line to my knowledge around ten years ago, maybe more, after repeated serious incidents of passenger on passenger or staff fights which were alcohol related. The line itself is a lot better than it used to be in terms of anti social behaviour, I believe at one stage it was in the top 10 for crimes reported to BTP, and this was before 61016 was a thing.
 

PG

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TM's issue is they don't want floodgates opened for Meridians to have one TM - there was an issue with a call for aid blocking Driver/Guard communication was how it was explained to me when MML TM's went on strike for 2 Guards on multiple 222s.
Firstly, thank you for your informative explanation of things.

As regards this issue with the Meridians, could/would TMs accept a resolution of the dispute if there was a specific requirement that multiple 222s would retain 2 Guards?
 

43055

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Glad to see progress ahs been made on the reginal side. It appears the strike page on the website has been removed yet a strike timetable is still in place today. Last time I checked it was only until the 2nd??
 

robbeech

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For those interested in how it works I suggest you travel on a Robin Hood line train on a Friday or Saturday evening and you'll get the full performance, quite probably witness at least one arrest and see how it's managed, without the silly flapping about bag searches that generally don't happen.
Personally I’d suggest people take your word for it. Having had to endure them on a few of occasions it’s one of the few routes that I’d sooner get a taxi home (and I live at the far end of the line). Those that know me will know I’m not likely to be phased by large groups of drunken people fighting and being threatening but it’s incredibly unpleasant on the southern half of the line.


I apologise to the powers that be for the alcohol comment that dragged this thread quite wildly off topic.
 

MCSHF007

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That said I completely agree staff conversation in front of passengers should be discrete and professional and will concede that it isn’t always. Some have probably became a little too used to having the entire carriage roped off during the lockdowns.
This was actually a "thing" long before lockdown.

Staff travelling passenger/on break in that vehicle should "tone things down" (conversation-wise) if anyone else is in earshot. Absolutely (and disappointingly) unprofessional to do otherwise.
 

ChrisC

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Personally I’d suggest people take your word for it. Having had to endure them on a few of occasions it’s one of the few routes that I’d sooner get a taxi home (and I live at the far end of the line). Those that know me will know I’m not likely to be phased by large groups of drunken people fighting and being threatening but it’s incredibly unpleasant on the southern half of the line.


I apologise to the powers that be for the alcohol comment that dragged this thread quite wildly off topic.
Still off topic but I totally agree. I completely avoid trains out of Nottingham on the Robin Hood Line in Friday and Saturday evenings and either use the bus from Nottingham or travel from Alfreton or Chesterfield instead. It’s horrendous and not just late night trains as those around 7 or 8pm on a Saturday are the worst. It isn’t just extremely unpleasant but extremely intimidating. I always feel sorry for elderly people and families who have used the train after a day out and are caught up in the middle of the drunken crowds.
 

RH Liner

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Still off topic but I totally agree. I completely avoid trains out of Nottingham on the Robin Hood Line in Friday and Saturday evenings and either use the bus from Nottingham or travel from Alfreton or Chesterfield instead. It’s horrendous and not just late night trains as those around 7 or 8pm on a Saturday are the worst. It isn’t just extremely unpleasant but extremely intimidating. I always feel sorry for elderly people and families who have used the train after a day out and are caught up in the middle of the drunken crowds.
Mansfield people aren’t like that, are they? (Note, not ‘we’!)
 

LowLevel

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Mansfield people aren’t like that, are they? (Note, not ‘we’!)

On Saturday night as I pulled out I was treated to a woman in her 30s who had had far too much drink in Nottingham catching an elderly lady's suitcase in the crossfire as she spewed across the platform at Mansfield whilst her boyfriend heaved over the fence.

Hopping over puddles of sick in the train all over the heaters, walls and windows when you do your empty stock check is standard but it's almost a mercy because that usually means they're too drunk to be fighting.

I'm not sure why anyone would expect any different though - degenerate behaviour on a night out is a British past time all over the country, why should the railway escape it.

Rarely is it the kids either. In that part of the world it's usually people in their 30s, 40s and 50s. That or the feral children at the North end of the route threatening traincrew and other passengers. Not enough law enforcement spread far too thin.

Short of just shooting them I doubt any measure will really work bar closing the line, which is really quite useful the rest of the time.
 
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