RMT Industrial Action - EMR

[LowLevel]

So every single Nottingham to Manchester and vice versa today (apart from one solitary bustitution) was suddenly cancelled this morning despite being in the timetable as running today as recently as yesterday? Meant that the only way to get up to Manchester was through Northern up to Sheffield then either TPE or the Hope Valley stopper (both of which leave Sheffield just as the Nottingham service comes in, so you end up with an hour wait unless you are very lucky with a 1 minute cross platform interchange to the Hope Valley.) Anyone know why this change suddenly appeared this morning?

(Unusually, there's also a pair of 150s running on the Northern Nottingham service mixed in with the usual 195s)

I assume that given they were also all cancelled yesterday they were put in by mistake.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

No, because the industry is too inflexible to allow such a substantial change at 2 days' notice.

Yet when the balloon goes up control teams apply their skills to dealing with the situation to do the best they can with resources available. So why not just remit them to do same in this situation?

The railways exist in a hyper-unionised environment, where conditions such as spare hours movement etc. severely restrict what can be done at short notice. In the context of a dispute you can hardly expect that staff will be willing to bend over backwards to help the company; they'll get paid one way or the other now that the strike is off.

But it's true that throughout this, no-one really represents the passengers' interests. And that's one of the major failures of the current railway setup.


In a truly private enterprise a dispute such as this would have been 'resolved' long ago. In a manner far less favourable to the employees, of course.

Totally correct and my take from Williams Shapps is that it doesn't acknowledge that there are underlying industrial relations issues that need addressing by both sides so the railway can deliver a reliable service 24/7 - 7 days a week. Thus I suspect these situations will just drag on and randomly burst out.

 

[DannyMich2018]

Currently on the 08:18 Beeston tp St Pancras service. I was hoping for a double unit given that only one Nottingham service an hour is operating today but no chance.

Its the normal five cars and it's already full and standing. I really believe that EMR just don't care about the service they provide and the DFT let them get away with it.

I also note on journey check that a lot of Nottingham to Manchesster services are cancelled today. Surely they cannot be short of staff today when running such a reduced service?

Yesterday Saturday 4th was mayhem. I was on the 10.05 St Pancras to Nottingham from Kettering. Standing room only (5 car 222), I got off at Leicester but sadly many of the people waiting at Leicester for it were left behind as was too crowded. Busy due to reduced service and of course the time of the year.

 

[Watershed]

Yet when the balloon goes up control teams apply their skills to dealing with the situation to do the best they can with resources available. So why not just remit them to do same in this situation?

It would be very unusual for them to create lots of additional services. Usually they would only do things like restart trains at a later location (e.g. a cancelled Penzance-Paddington service may be restarted at Exeter) or turn trains around short of their destination.

Totally correct and my take from Williams Shapps is that it doesn't acknowledge that there are underlying industrial relations issues that need addressing by both sides so the railway can deliver a reliable service 24/7 - 7 days a week. Thus I suspect these situations will just drag on and randomly burst out.

Indeed. There are a lot of 'hospital passes' that have been glossed over.

 

[Bald Rick]

Word on the street is that the dispute with RMT is settled and the strike next week is off (too late to do anything for tomorrow).

Any news on what the deal is from those close to it?

 

[LowLevel]

Word on the street is that the dispute with RMT is settled and the strike next week is off (too late to do anything for tomorrow).

Any news on what the deal is from those close to it?

Tomorrow is XC not EMR.

An agreement on working 170s in multi, introducing working week Sundays, reforming mentors/coaches, a 35 hour week and a few other bits and pieces.

All subject to a referendum with the union executive recommending a yes vote.

 

[Watershed]

Tomorrow is XC not EMR.

An agreement on working 170s in multi, introducing working week Sundays, reforming mentors/coaches, a 35 hour week and a few other bits and pieces.

All subject to a referendum with the union executive recommending a yes vote.

Presumably this just resolves the issues on the Regional side then?

 

[Bald Rick]

Tomorrow is XC not EMR.

of course, my mistake. It’s been a very long week.

 

[LowLevel]

Presumably this just resolves the issues on the Regional side then?

Yes but I don't think the Intercity side is problematic - they have the solution there, it's just sorting it out with other grades involved that is proving harder than anticipated.

The Regional side multiple working document for 170s, incidentally, permits the guard to move between units leaving the rear one unmanned at their discretion both for customer service and operational reasons so it's a fairly big change.

As a positive for the provision of guards on EMR the fact that these changes are being signed off by the Government despite the spending restrictions in place has to be a good sign that they have a long term future.

 

[Llandudno]

Tomorrow is XC not EMR.

An agreement on working 170s in multi, introducing working week Sundays, reforming mentors/coaches, a 35 hour week and a few other bits and pieces.

All subject to a referendum with the union executive recommending a yes vote.

Should be good news for reliability if Sundays become part of the working week?

Will this help finding cover for sickness etc on Saturdays as there will be less overtime available on Sundays?

 

[liamf656]

Posters are emerging apologising to customers for the disruption on 31st December (tomorrow) and 1st January (Saturday) to the regional routes

The text says:
“There will be no services on our regional routes on the above dates due to industrial action by members of the RMT union. Customers are advised to check at eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk”

Crosscountry are also striking on New Year’s eve which will certainly cause full scale chaos in Nottingham, Derby and Leicester!

 

[Llandudno]

Posters are emerging apologising to customers for the disruption on 31st December (tomorrow) and 1st January (Saturday) to the regional routes

The text says:
“There will be no services on our regional routes on the above dates due to industrial action by members of the RMT union. Customers are advised to check at eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk”

Crosscountry are also striking on New Year’s eve which will certainly cause full scale chaos in Nottingham, Derby and Leicester!

According to the National Rail app and journey planner the EMR Crewe - Derby service is running normally on 1 January?

 

[bunnahabhain]

Posters are emerging apologising to customers for the disruption on 31st December (tomorrow) and 1st January (Saturday) to the regional routes

The text says:
“There will be no services on our regional routes on the above dates due to industrial action by members of the RMT union. Customers are advised to check at eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk”

Crosscountry are also striking on New Year’s eve which will certainly cause full scale chaos in Nottingham, Derby and Leicester!

This is incorrect, there are no strikes.

 

[LowLevel]

Posters are emerging apologising to customers for the disruption on 31st December (tomorrow) and 1st January (Saturday) to the regional routes

The text says:
“There will be no services on our regional routes on the above dates due to industrial action by members of the RMT union. Customers are advised to check at eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk”

Crosscountry are also striking on New Year’s eve which will certainly cause full scale chaos in Nottingham, Derby and Leicester!

One picture of a poster which was never displayed on someone's desk has been irresponsibly uploaded by someone to the Internet and some people have taken it on themselves to share it.

The strike action has been suspended with a recommendation from the RMT National Executive to end the dispute.

 

[liamf656]

One picture of a poster which was never displayed on someone's desk has been irresponsibly uploaded by someone to the Internet and some people have taken it on themselves to share it.

The strike action has been suspended with a recommendation from the RMT National Executive to end the dispute.

Thank you for the explanation. Hopefully it’s all good things from here on in

 

[DDB]

But if the industrial action is over what will EMR have to fill up thier website front page and poster boards. They have been very very keen to advertise service changes due to strikes but don't have the same enthusiasm to publicise all the cancelled services they have made since the May timetable.
As an example there were posters and announcements on Spondon station about strike action on Sundays despite Spondon not having a Sunday service anyway but nothing about them withdrawing nearly all weekday services!

 

[Sleepy]

1st 3 services from Norwich tommorow morning (and 1057) all cancelled, starting at Nottingham with reason given crew shortage. However a 3 hour line block is being taken from 0700 between March & Peterborough for a track repair.

UPDATE : EMR have now changed reason for cancellations to track repairs, they really don't help themselves ! GA have also cancelled some Peterborough services - Couldn't they turn them at Ely or March ?

UPDATE 2 GA services reinstated to Ely (At least Soham will still have early service now) Numerous other EMR routes regional cancellations tommorow now showing up, lack of volunteers for NYE overtime combined with Covid absence appears to be causing big problems.

 

[LowLevel]

1st 3 services from Norwich tommorow morning (and 1057) all cancelled, starting at Nottingham with reason given crew shortage. However a 3 hour line block is being taken from 0700 between March & Peterborough for a track repair.

UPDATE : EMR have now changed reason for cancellations to track repairs, they really don't help themselves ! GA have also cancelled some Peterborough services - Couldn't they turn them at Ely or March ?

UPDATE 2 GA services reinstated to Ely (At least Soham will still have early service now) Numerous other EMR routes regional cancellations tommorow now showing up, lack of volunteers for NYE overtime combined with Covid absence appears to be causing big problems.

Absolutely stuffed for crews and it'll probably get worse before it gets better.

As you say, not much incentive to come to work on your day off and get battered (not literally) running a knackered service with a chronic shortage of trains and staff. Managers, supervisors, fitters, station staff, controllers, traincrew and every other grade are in ridiculously short supply.

Absolutely nothing to do with industrial relations though.

 

[Signal_Box]

There was a dispute years ago along similar lines with Meridians running in multiple (8,9, and 10 cars). This was resolved with a Train Manager in each portion.

I think maybe the RMT feel it will erode their position (and current agreements) on Meridians and future Hitachi trains if they sit back over twelve car 360s.

I believe 12 car 360s were run on Greater Anglia with only one Guard (possibly Driver Only in places). Great Northern did have 12 car 365s (and 321s as well once upon a time) until recently with just a Driver, both of which have no gangways between units.
Although they are different companies with different negotiated arrangements, it does weaken RMT's case (a bit like how 12 car Thameslink DOO on the Brighton Mainline weakened their case in the Southern dispute over the role of the Guard).


I can't see them doing well out of it either way - in fact I was very surprised that 360s were chosen for the Corby service and not DOO in-cab-CCTV-ready 379s - although by chance they happen to have not been finished with by Greater Anglia yet.

Silverlink operated 12 car Class 321s back in 2004 with only one guard who was expected to do full revenue across all cars so leaving the rear 8 unmanned at times.

Indeed if 12 EMUs can run to Bedford multiple times an hour what’s the issue with extending DOO to Corby. Would make a lot of sense operationally as on board staff could then be left to look after the passengers in much the same way as OBS staff on Southern.

I would assume GTR via its previous franchise holders going back to BR have DOO agreements in place.

EMT, who are a former Intercity (Corby route being former MML area, not Central) probably don’t have DOO agreements so a new one would need to be sort with ASLEF and RMT.

Yes great Anglia 1000am braintree to London liverpool Street 12 car 321.
But only as far as Witham.
Then driver only to London liverpool Street.
Only remaining Anglia 12 car class 321 at momment retaining a guard.

Network South East set up with agreements of ASLEF and NUR (later RMT) a area of operation for DOO after a long and bitter strike by NUR members.

Thats why you have isolated areas where guards work and get off like the example above.

LTS (later C2C) retained guards under 357 operation on 12 cars, but later did away with the method of working - beating strikes by simply running 4 and 8 car trains vice 12 on strike days!

 

[robbeech]

But if the industrial action is over what will EMR have to fill up thier website front page and poster boards.

Around me the signs just remind you that if you’re a 72 year old bloke with a (completely sealed) bottle of wine and a microwave meal for one in a Sainsbury’s carrier bag and you get on the train at Nottingham to get off at Hucknall you will have the bottle of wine forcibly taken off of you by staff.

They actually just say no alcohol, but as the chap (ex BR senior staff as it happens) found out, the power trip is very real.

 

[LowLevel]

Referendum concluded today, Regional Senior Conductors voted to accept the company proposals on terms and conditions and multiple working of class 170s. Intercity/Connect Train Managers voted to reject company proposals on multiple working of class 360s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Referendum concluded today, Regional Senior Conductors voted to accept the company proposals on terms and conditions and multiple working of class 170s. Intercity/Connect Train Managers voted to reject company proposals on multiple working of class 360s.

<sigh>

Wonder if they are eyeing up the 350/2s instead?

 

[Meerkat]

Just don't run multiples and let the Train Managers explain why to the crushed in passengers.

 

[Signal_Box]

Referendum concluded today, Regional Senior Conductors voted to accept the company proposals on terms and conditions and multiple working of class 170s. Intercity/Connect Train Managers voted to reject company proposals on multiple working of class 360s.

Great to see the unity there between corporate titles of the same grade.

 

[Sleepy]

Just don't run multiples and let the Train Managers explain why to the crushed in passengers.

Should think the amount of people in a 4 car 360 to Corby is unlikely to reach "crushed in" levels any time soon.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Should think the amount of people in a 4 car 360 to Corby is unlikely to reach "crushed in" levels any time soon.

Agree - observed trains might as well be class 5 (empty stock) ..has to be one of the emptiest electric train service going.

 

[43096]

<sigh>

Wonder if they are eyeing up the 350/2s instead?

Why would they? The 360s are on long term lease. Angel are not very likely to agree to terminate the 360 lease on the basis that EMR's guards don't like it. The other solution is to go DOO and make the guards redundant.

 

[robbeech]

Just don't run multiples and let the Train Managers explain why to the crushed in passengers.

Over the broken PA from the back cab.

Agree - observed trains might as well be class 5 (empty stock) ..has to be one of the emptiest electric train service going.

Indeed I’ve seen a couple of these and certainly agree. Although I think the calling pattern of these and importantly the calling pattern of other services has a bearing on it. When other services don’t call at certain stations it leaves passengers no other option. Am I right in thinking that the calling patterns are a bit up in the air at the moment ?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

<sigh>

Wonder if they are eyeing up the 350/2s instead?

Going DOO would seem a much simpler solution

 

[Bald Rick]

Over the broken PA from the back cab.

Indeed I’ve seen a couple of these and certainly agree. Although I think the calling pattern of these and importantly the calling pattern of other services has a bearing on it. When other services don’t call at certain stations it leaves passengers no other option. Am I right in thinking that the calling patterns are a bit up in the air at the moment ?

On the EMR 360s? Almost every service has the same calling pattern and always has.