Incomplete Preserved Emus

[Mat17]

What about class 506, two cut off cabs survive. Not even a full carriage.

 

[WAO]

I'm not sure why you think they were withdrawn half-way through their book life ? Where's the evidence that the Eurostar fleet was meant to last 40 years ?

And BR didn't always cascade - the Deltics for example.

....perhaps because SNCF has "cascaded" them.

WAO

 

[S&CLER]

It's a great pity none of the first generation L&Y electric stock from 1904 (the 10 foot wide cars) survives, nor as far as I know any of the North Eastern's Tyneside emus of the same vintage. A Mersey Railway car was earmarked for preservation in 1956, but I believe destroyed in an accidental fire at a paint shop in Derby. This was a tragic loss, since the MR in 1903 was the pioneer of electrification (in the strict sense of conversion from steam, that is, excluding the handful of tube lines in London and the Liverpool Overhead built as electric from the start in the 1890s.

The Deltics were cascaded to ECML semi-fasts once the HSTs came in, weren’t they?

I recall seeing Deltics at Lime Street on Trans-Pennine workings in the early 1980s, possibly the first time they had appeared there since the prototype in the 1950s (which I also saw as a juvenile trainspotter).

 

[WAO]

I think that the parcel van 3267 is still around and even 3170 although originally a DEMU, of the NER creations.

WAO

 

[4SubAsociation]

There's 2 either vep or cig coaches:

The NRMs former driving trailer, now on the east kent railway.

Also driving trailer from a vep think it is that's at the mizens miniature railway. Lives underneath a replica canopy.

2 VEPs trailers. East kent one is out of 3545 and the other as mentioned by pdeaves is 3562. Also another sort of VEP trailer survives but orinally was in TC 403.

What about class 506, two cut off cabs survive. Not even a full carriage.

Only one cab from M508404M survives. The rest where scrapped due to being in poor condition.

It's a great pity none of the first generation L&Y electric stock from 1904 (the 10 foot wide cars) survives, nor as far as I know any of the North Eastern's Tyneside emus of the same vintage. A Mersey Railway car was earmarked for preservation in 1956, but I believe destroyed in an accidental fire at a paint shop in Derby. This was a tragic loss, since the MR in 1903 was the pioneer of electrification (in the strict sense of conversion from steam, that is, excluding the handful of tube lines in London and the Liverpool Overhead built as electric from the start in the 1890s.

I recall seeing Deltics at Lime Street on Trans-Pennine workings in the early 1980s, possibly the first time they had appeared there since the prototype in the 1950s (which I also saw as a juvenile trainspotter).

There is a NER Tyneside Luguage van (3267). It survived due to being in departmental service. But i supose what killed the tyneside units off was due to de-electricification. There is a EPB varient which is also owned by the Suburban Electric Railway Assocation (sister group to the 4SUB).

 

[A0wen]

....perhaps because SNCF has "cascaded" them.

WAO

Just because SNCF has cascaded them doesn't mean they had an expected working life of more than 20 years.

Equally I'm not sure it would have been posdible to design Eurostar stock that would have been suitable for cascade elsewhere on the UK network.

The Deltics were cascaded to ECML semi-fasts once the HSTs came in, weren’t they?

They stayed on the ECML on some turns they already ran IIRC, so not really cascaded.

They were tried on Trans Pennine services but that didn't last.

 

[43096]

They stayed on the ECML on some turns they already ran IIRC, so not really cascaded.

They didn't. The HSTs were operating the top-link services on the ECML that were previously Deltic operated.

 

[XAM2175]

Yes, I know they were long trains and consumed prodigious amounts of power etc but stock should surely not be designed so narrowly to business specs that they can find no wider use when circumstances change.

The cynical could suggest that SNCF, as the majority owner of Eurostar, have a vested interested in scrapping 373s - or limiting their cascades to other SNCF companies only - in order to keep them out of the hands of potential competitors.

 

[DanNCL]

There is a NER Tyneside Luguage van (3267). It survived due to being in departmental service. But i supose what killed the tyneside units off was due to de-electricification. There is a EPB varient which is also owned by the Suburban Electric Railway Assocation (sister group to the 4SUB).

The NER motorised luggage van has been restored to an excellent condition. It might only be one vehicle but it represents the NER electric fleet of that era well.

Of course the most recent generation of Tyneside electrics, the Metrocar, looks set to be very well represented in preservation, two being earmarked for preservation in Tyne & Wear, several being made available for training and miscellaneous use, and 6 being donated to community projects - the winners of those 6 units haven’t been announced yet, but the criteria set out for applications for them certainly allowed for preservation groups to bid.

The big thing missing in preservation from the Tyneside electric network is the 1930s LNER units, from which nothing, not even a cab, survived.

 

[WAO]

Just because SNCF has cascaded them doesn't mean they had an expected working life of more than 20 years.

I suggest that scrapping of only half the class indicates that its demise was not due to life expiry, when all units would have been torched but rather due to lack of commercial demand (in the UK). To cascade them in the UK would have required more engineering and operational skills than the privatised railway and DfT possess at present.

The class 91 by contrast was built by BR with emulation capability, i.e. the locomotives could adopt the driving characteristics of other ac traction, if required to substitute. I don't know whether it was ever used but it was an insurance against early redundancy.

WAO

 

[A0wen]

I suggest that scrapping of only half the class indicates that its demise was not due to life expiry, when all units would have been torched but rather due to lack of commercial demand (in the UK). To cascade them in the UK would have required more engineering and operational skills than the privatised railway and DfT possess at present.

The class 91 by contrast was built by BR with emulation capability, i.e. the locomotives could adopt the driving characteristics of other ac traction, if required to substitute. I don't know whether it was ever used but it was an insurance against early redundancy.

WAO

BIB - it would have required wholesale re-engineering of them and a few lines. Don't forget even those which did operate on domestic lines (ECML) could only do so on select routes. And those routes already had fit-for-purpose stock on them which wasn't due replacement.

Only about 20 of them have been withdrawn of which some have been scrapped - the point at which they were withdrawn was 10 years after the Pendolinos had been introduced on the WCML, so no chance of them going there - and there wouldn't have been enough, the WCML has over 50 Pendos.

The GW Mainline - even if it had been electrified - wouldn't have been suitable as GWR have taken over 50 class 800s, so again ~20 x 373s wouldn't have been of use.

So where would you have suggested they go in the UK ?

 

[WAO]

Actually, I generally agree with you. They didn't slot in seamlessly on East Coast services and would have needed both clever adaptation and a flexible rolling stock strategy, beyond us in the UK.

They were however big, 400m (but shorten-able), 18 trailer trains to international standards of comfort and fully written down financially.

I wonder which GWR's Cardiff customers would vote for, given the choice?

WAO

 

[D365]

The shame over the 373's is not the lack of preservation but the scrapping of half the fleet only half way through its book life...

They were far more than halfway through their lives... but that off-topic for this discussion.

 

[DelW]

The shame over the 373's is not the lack of preservation but the scrapping of half the fleet only half way through its book life and probably much less through its potential service life. Yes, I know they were long trains and consumed prodigious amounts of power etc but stock should surely not be designed so narrowly to business specs that they can find no wider use when circumstances change.

BR had a word for it - "cascade".

WAO

Would that be the same BR that in the 1950s built lots of "Standard" steam locos, then withdrew and scrapped them all 10 - 15 years later?

And the same BR that in the 1960s ordered lots of Modernisation Plan diesels to unproven designs, only to find that many were unsuccessful and were withdrawn and either sold off or scrapped within 10 - 15 years?

Things weren't always better in the past.

 

[Southern Dvr]

With Eurostar the great shame is the total destruction order on the 373s, I thought that a gutter out power car as a kitchen and a couple of carriages would have made a novel restaurant somewhere but alas it could not be.

There is one TSO from CIG 1306 in the car park at Hever which was previously owned by the business that occupied the former ticket office.

 

[johnny_t]

For the Class 309s, there is also a spare TSO from 623 lurking at Carnforth

 

[WAO]

Would that be the same BR that in the 1950s built lots of "Standard" steam locos, then withdrew and scrapped them all 10 - 15 years later?

And the same BR that in the 1960s ordered lots of Modernisation Plan diesels to unproven designs, only to find that many were unsuccessful and were withdrawn and either sold off or scrapped within 10 - 15 years?

Things weren't always better in the past.

Agreed that BR had vices as well as virtues.

IMHO its virtues were that it contained the innards of four good, competent, integrated (if sometimes contradictory) railways.

Its vice was that it was nationalised so that its decisions were compromised financially and technically being overseen by arts graduate civil servants and politicians. It ceased to have a General Manager (the single directing mind) and had instead a (Railway Executive) Board Chairman (ex-SR) permanently at odds with a BTC Chair (ex DfT Permanent Secretary). From that the steam and diesel debacles flowed.

I did like the CIG/BIG's though and can't understand why anyone would want to preserve any part of a VEP - especially to have it named after a good railwayman!

WAO

 

[4SubAsociation]

For the Class 309s, there is also a spare TSO from 623 lurking at Carnforth

It is known about. Its a bit like the RES PCV's that are theres. They are ex 307.

Agreed that BR had vices as well as virtues.

IMHO its virtues were that it contained the innards of four good, competent, integrated (if sometimes contradictory) railways.

Its vice was that it was nationalised so that its decisions were compromised financially and technically being overseen by arts graduate civil servants and politicians. It ceased to have a General Manager (the single directing mind) and had instead a (Railway Executive) Board Chairman (ex-SR) permanently at odds with a BTC Chair (ex DfT Permanent Secretary). From that the steam and diesel debacles flowed.

I did like the CIG/BIG's though and can't understand why anyone would want to preserve any part of a VEP - especially to have it named after a good railwayman!

WAO

With the VEPs. Initally only the carraige at the EKR and Mizens where to be presereved. The EKR one was dedicated for the natonal collection but de-accessioned.

3417 was kept on after the end of the Slam Door opperations and was not got rid of until the 2010ish when it was sold to the Bluebell for a nominal fee.

3905 is a VEP converted to a VOP. It was a ex tractor unit for Chart Leacon. They initally went to the Brighton Belle Group with 3918. 3 of the carraiges are now owned by the 400 Series Preservation using the motor coach from 1399 to complete. Link https://www.facebook.com/400SPG

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed that BR had vices as well as virtues.

IMHO its virtues were that it contained the innards of four good, competent, integrated (if sometimes contradictory) railways.

Its vice was that it was nationalised so that its decisions were compromised financially and technically being overseen by arts graduate civil servants and politicians. It ceased to have a General Manager (the single directing mind) and had instead a (Railway Executive) Board Chairman (ex-SR) permanently at odds with a BTC Chair (ex DfT Permanent Secretary). From that the steam and diesel debacles flowed.

I did like the CIG/BIG's though and can't understand why anyone would want to preserve any part of a VEP - especially to have it named after a good railwayman!

WAO

I think the VEP's were quite underrated for what they did. Had many perfectly pleasant journeys on them.

 

[bramling]

I think the VEP's were quite underrated for what they did. Had many perfectly pleasant journeys on them.

Absolutely. A VEP fan here.

The only caveat is that I never *commuted* on them, not sure if I’d have appreciated them day in day out if using them when heavily loaded.

 

[yorksrob]

Absolutely. A VEP fan here.

The only caveat is that I never *commuted* on them, not sure if I’d have appreciated them day in day out if using them when heavily loaded.

Yes, they'd have been uncomfortable when crowded, but the same goes for a lot of trains.

 

[bramling]

Yes, they'd have been uncomfortable when crowded, but the same goes for a lot of trains.

It does surprise me more Southern EMUs weren’t preserved. CIGs in particular would have fitted be bill for some heritage railways, though I realise he difficulties involved in running them.

 

[yorksrob]

It does surprise me more Southern EMUs weren’t preserved. CIGs in particular would have fitted be bill for some heritage railways, though I realise he difficulties involved in running them.

Yes, I do hope the VEP will be out and about before too long.

 

[WAO]

I'm sorry for hurting the sensibilities of the VEP community but I did commute extensively on this stock.
The trouble was that so many customers were seriously "out of gauge" and so could not fit into the 5-a-side seats. Stock like the Subs had recessed sides allowing that little extra room...

I had to see my GP several times with a painful hip caused by being crushed by other seated passengers. In the end standing in the spacious van was prescribed - even better when a disabled seat was fitted!. There was also an elbow tussle as to who could fit into the narrow seating space. I just about could but others spread well over the 50% boundary.

I liked the ride of the B5(S) bogies and the express gear ratio but the passenger accommodation was (and is) awful at full load.

WAO

 

[D6130]

I suggest that scrapping of only half the class indicates that its demise was not due to life expiry, when all units would have been torched but rather due to lack of commercial demand (in the UK). To cascade them in the UK would have required more engineering and operational skills than the privatised railway and DfT possess at present.

IIRC, one of the main reasons for ordering the 374s and scrapping half of the 373s - as well as the planned expansion of services - was that many of the 373 power cars were suffering from severe corrosion problems.

 

[plugwash]

The shame over the 373's is not the lack of preservation but the scrapping of half the fleet only half way through its book life and probably much less through its potential service life. Yes, I know they were long trains and consumed prodigious amounts of power etc but stock should surely not be designed so narrowly to business specs that they can find no wider use when circumstances change.

Sometimes though you have a bunch of special requirements that force a special design. HS1 wasn't built when they were introduced, so they needed to fit down the classic british lines, they also needed to meet the (overly restrictive in retrospect) tunnel safety regulations, they needed to be fast enough not to clog up the french TGV network and they needed to deal with up to four different power systems. None of these requirements were really "negotiable", they were critical requirements to run the planned Eurostar service.

Other uses were found for some of the sets from time to time (wikipedia claims one started being operated by IZY in 2018 but I have no idea if that is still the case), but presumablly their operating costs were too high to make them worth keeping around for long when more normal trains became available.

 

[gc4946]

It is known about. Its a bit like the RES PCV's that are theres. They are ex 307.



With the VEPs. Initally only the carraige at the EKR and Mizens where to be presereved. The EKR one was dedicated for the natonal collection but de-accessioned.

3417 was kept on after the end of the Slam Door opperations and was not got rid of until the 2010ish when it was sold to the Bluebell for a nominal fee.

3905 is a VEP converted to a VOP. It was a ex tractor unit for Chart Leacon. They initally went to the Brighton Belle Group with 3918. 3 of the carraiges are now owned by the 400 Series Preservation using the motor coach from 1399 to complete. Link https://www.facebook.com/400SPG

3918's motor coach 69321 survives at Barrow Hill, so could be rescued once the Brighton Belle Group finishes with it

BR 62321 Class 423 4-VEP EMU Motor Brake Second Open built 1972

 

[Southern Dvr]

3918's motor coach 69321 survives at Barrow Hill, so could be rescued once the Brighton Belle Group finishes with it

BR 62321 Class 423 4-VEP EMU Motor Brake Second Open built 1972

Believe it’s used by Rampart as an office.

 

[VEP3417]

did someone say vep fan.....

be nice to ride on it again yes once its done, fingers crossed they might couple it to the swanage TC

as for trouble running emus on a preserved line is it not as simple as coupling up a diesel to it, 33 or 73 would be appropriate

or is it more to do with the fact people still dont really see them as classic traction yet, theyre still a bit "modern" to be lurking around a preserved/steam railway

what about doing an 80s style preserved railway.....minus the graffiti and grubby stations unless you where going for authenticity

 

[gc4946]

Several 373 carriages survive in preservation or other use in the UK according to Vintage Carriages' Trust database:
3101 driving motor http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=17063 at Doncaster
3102 driving motor http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=17065 at Birmingham
3304 driving motor http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=17066 at Margate
and trailer open first http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=17067 also at Margate
3308 driving motor at National Railway Museum http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=15584