I'm not sure why you think they were withdrawn half-way through their book life ? Where's the evidence that the Eurostar fleet was meant to last 40 years ?
And BR didn't always cascade - the Deltics for example.
I recall seeing Deltics at Lime Street on Trans-Pennine workings in the early 1980s, possibly the first time they had appeared there since the prototype in the 1950s (which I also saw as a juvenile trainspotter).The Deltics were cascaded to ECML semi-fasts once the HSTs came in, weren’t they?
There's 2 either vep or cig coaches:
The NRMs former driving trailer, now on the east kent railway.
Also driving trailer from a vep think it is that's at the mizens miniature railway. Lives underneath a replica canopy.
What about class 506, two cut off cabs survive. Not even a full carriage.
There is a NER Tyneside Luguage van (3267). It survived due to being in departmental service. But i supose what killed the tyneside units off was due to de-electricification. There is a EPB varient which is also owned by the Suburban Electric Railway Assocation (sister group to the 4SUB).It's a great pity none of the first generation L&Y electric stock from 1904 (the 10 foot wide cars) survives, nor as far as I know any of the North Eastern's Tyneside emus of the same vintage. A Mersey Railway car was earmarked for preservation in 1956, but I believe destroyed in an accidental fire at a paint shop in Derby. This was a tragic loss, since the MR in 1903 was the pioneer of electrification (in the strict sense of conversion from steam, that is, excluding the handful of tube lines in London and the Liverpool Overhead built as electric from the start in the 1890s.
I recall seeing Deltics at Lime Street on Trans-Pennine workings in the early 1980s, possibly the first time they had appeared there since the prototype in the 1950s (which I also saw as a juvenile trainspotter).
....perhaps because SNCF has "cascaded" them.
WAO
The Deltics were cascaded to ECML semi-fasts once the HSTs came in, weren’t they?
They didn't. The HSTs were operating the top-link services on the ECML that were previously Deltic operated.They stayed on the ECML on some turns they already ran IIRC, so not really cascaded.
The cynical could suggest that SNCF, as the majority owner of Eurostar, have a vested interested in scrapping 373s - or limiting their cascades to other SNCF companies only - in order to keep them out of the hands of potential competitors.Yes, I know they were long trains and consumed prodigious amounts of power etc but stock should surely not be designed so narrowly to business specs that they can find no wider use when circumstances change.
The NER motorised luggage van has been restored to an excellent condition. It might only be one vehicle but it represents the NER electric fleet of that era well.There is a NER Tyneside Luguage van (3267). It survived due to being in departmental service. But i supose what killed the tyneside units off was due to de-electricification. There is a EPB varient which is also owned by the Suburban Electric Railway Assocation (sister group to the 4SUB).
Just because SNCF has cascaded them doesn't mean they had an expected working life of more than 20 years.
I suggest that scrapping of only half the class indicates that its demise was not due to life expiry, when all units would have been torched but rather due to lack of commercial demand (in the UK). To cascade them in the UK would have required more engineering and operational skills than the privatised railway and DfT possess at present.
The class 91 by contrast was built by BR with emulation capability, i.e. the locomotives could adopt the driving characteristics of other ac traction, if required to substitute. I don't know whether it was ever used but it was an insurance against early redundancy.
WAO
They were far more than halfway through their lives... but that off-topic for this discussion.The shame over the 373's is not the lack of preservation but the scrapping of half the fleet only half way through its book life...
Would that be the same BR that in the 1950s built lots of "Standard" steam locos, then withdrew and scrapped them all 10 - 15 years later?The shame over the 373's is not the lack of preservation but the scrapping of half the fleet only half way through its book life and probably much less through its potential service life. Yes, I know they were long trains and consumed prodigious amounts of power etc but stock should surely not be designed so narrowly to business specs that they can find no wider use when circumstances change.
BR had a word for it - "cascade".
WAO
Agreed that BR had vices as well as virtues.Would that be the same BR that in the 1950s built lots of "Standard" steam locos, then withdrew and scrapped them all 10 - 15 years later?
And the same BR that in the 1960s ordered lots of Modernisation Plan diesels to unproven designs, only to find that many were unsuccessful and were withdrawn and either sold off or scrapped within 10 - 15 years?
Things weren't always better in the past.
It is known about. Its a bit like the RES PCV's that are theres. They are ex 307.For the Class 309s, there is also a spare TSO from 623 lurking at Carnforth
Agreed that BR had vices as well as virtues.
IMHO its virtues were that it contained the innards of four good, competent, integrated (if sometimes contradictory) railways.
Its vice was that it was nationalised so that its decisions were compromised financially and technically being overseen by arts graduate civil servants and politicians. It ceased to have a General Manager (the single directing mind) and had instead a (Railway Executive) Board Chairman (ex-SR) permanently at odds with a BTC Chair (ex DfT Permanent Secretary). From that the steam and diesel debacles flowed.
I did like the CIG/BIG's though and can't understand why anyone would want to preserve any part of a VEP - especially to have it named after a good railwayman!
WAO
Agreed that BR had vices as well as virtues.
IMHO its virtues were that it contained the innards of four good, competent, integrated (if sometimes contradictory) railways.
Its vice was that it was nationalised so that its decisions were compromised financially and technically being overseen by arts graduate civil servants and politicians. It ceased to have a General Manager (the single directing mind) and had instead a (Railway Executive) Board Chairman (ex-SR) permanently at odds with a BTC Chair (ex DfT Permanent Secretary). From that the steam and diesel debacles flowed.
I did like the CIG/BIG's though and can't understand why anyone would want to preserve any part of a VEP - especially to have it named after a good railwayman!
WAO
I think the VEP's were quite underrated for what they did. Had many perfectly pleasant journeys on them.
Absolutely. A VEP fan here.
The only caveat is that I never *commuted* on them, not sure if I’d have appreciated them day in day out if using them when heavily loaded.
Yes, they'd have been uncomfortable when crowded, but the same goes for a lot of trains.
It does surprise me more Southern EMUs weren’t preserved. CIGs in particular would have fitted be bill for some heritage railways, though I realise he difficulties involved in running them.
IIRC, one of the main reasons for ordering the 374s and scrapping half of the 373s - as well as the planned expansion of services - was that many of the 373 power cars were suffering from severe corrosion problems.I suggest that scrapping of only half the class indicates that its demise was not due to life expiry, when all units would have been torched but rather due to lack of commercial demand (in the UK). To cascade them in the UK would have required more engineering and operational skills than the privatised railway and DfT possess at present.
Sometimes though you have a bunch of special requirements that force a special design. HS1 wasn't built when they were introduced, so they needed to fit down the classic british lines, they also needed to meet the (overly restrictive in retrospect) tunnel safety regulations, they needed to be fast enough not to clog up the french TGV network and they needed to deal with up to four different power systems. None of these requirements were really "negotiable", they were critical requirements to run the planned Eurostar service.The shame over the 373's is not the lack of preservation but the scrapping of half the fleet only half way through its book life and probably much less through its potential service life. Yes, I know they were long trains and consumed prodigious amounts of power etc but stock should surely not be designed so narrowly to business specs that they can find no wider use when circumstances change.
It is known about. Its a bit like the RES PCV's that are theres. They are ex 307.
With the VEPs. Initally only the carraige at the EKR and Mizens where to be presereved. The EKR one was dedicated for the natonal collection but de-accessioned.
3417 was kept on after the end of the Slam Door opperations and was not got rid of until the 2010ish when it was sold to the Bluebell for a nominal fee.
3905 is a VEP converted to a VOP. It was a ex tractor unit for Chart Leacon. They initally went to the Brighton Belle Group with 3918. 3 of the carraiges are now owned by the 400 Series Preservation using the motor coach from 1399 to complete. Link https://www.facebook.com/400SPG
Believe it’s used by Rampart as an office.3918's motor coach 69321 survives at Barrow Hill, so could be rescued once the Brighton Belle Group finishes with it