Russia invades Ukraine

[DanNCL]

Not sure that's entirely true. BA11, for example, made it to Singapore yesterday without flying over Russian airspace.

Of course, I keep forgetting we have longer range aircraft now than we had during the Cold War era of British aircraft not being able to overfly Russia!

 

[BananaRepublic]

A very angry and worried Latvian deputy Prime Minister has been on TV accusing the larger EU nations of being reluctant to take decisive action on sanctions and other measures.
He accuses them of putting money and their economic interests above the lives of Ukrainians and above the security of the eastern European states.
Asked to name names, he wouldn’t say, but clearly it was aimed at Germany, France and Italy, who objected to blocking Russia from SWIFT.
Joe Biden was asked by several journalists yesterday, why he hadn’t blocked Russia from SWIFT and he told them the “Europeans” wouldn’t agree to it.

 

[nw1]

But could Putin & China win against NATO?

China: What does it want from the Ukraine crisis with Russia?

As Xi and Putin prepare to meet, China says it supports Russia's concerns - but doesn't want war.

www.bbc.co.uk

How predictable, that Xi, currently, by my understanding, spreading misinformation about Omicron and making it out to be much worse than it is as an excuse to exert control via fear over the Chinese population, is cosying up to Putin.

 

[YorkshireBear]

A very angry and worried Latvian deputy Prime Minister has been on TV accusing the larger EU nations of being reluctant to take decisive action on sanctions and other measures.
He accuses them of putting money and their economic interests above the lives of Ukrainians and above the security of the eastern European states.
Asked to name names, he wouldn’t say, but clearly it was aimed at Germany, France and Italy, who objected to blocking Russia from SWIFT.
Joe Biden was asked by several journalists yesterday, why he hadn’t blocked Russia from SWIFT and he told them the “Europeans” wouldn’t agree to it.

I am not surprised that is their view. However, from what I gather, anything we buy from Russia would almost immediately cease if they were taken out of SWIFT and there are obviously fairly wide ranging consequences for a lot of people if that was to happen.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Can I point everyone towards this twitter post of an audio recording between a Ukrainian border guard post and a Russian naval vessel, where the border guards told the approaching Russian force to "go f*ck (themselves).

https://twitter.com/KnowNothingTV/status/1497008459287785472?t=ENx90QlcT0gUo086TX21Qw&s=19

 

[BananaRepublic]

Of course, I keep forgetting we have longer range aircraft now than we had during the Cold War era of British aircraft not being able to overfly Russia!

British and other European and Far Eastern nation's aircraft were allowed to overfly Russia (USSR) during the Cold War, from the late 1970's onwards.
i.e. flying between Europe and the Far East.
Japan Airlines was the first airline allowed on the route, followed by others, including BA.
Initially, refuelling stops had to be made in Moscow, before longer range aircraft made that stop unnecessary in the late '80's, which coincided with the fall of the USSR.

Prior to that, the "traditional" route was via the Middle East, India and SE Asia. ...and from the late 1960's, the quickest and shortest way was via the "Polar Route", with a refuelling stop in Alaska (usually Anchorage).

There we’re of course, regular scheduled flights between London and Moscow and Leningrad (St. Petersburg), throughout the 1960’s, 70’s and 80’s, flown by BEA (later to become BA in 1974) and Aeroflot; as well as various charter flights for organised tour groups.

 

[DustyBin]

I like seeing some of the sabre rattling on here from folks saying "we" should be getting involved with the fighting, they must be posting from the cockpits of their Typhoons perhaps... or not.

Indeed. The pertinent question is have they considered the implications of a full scale NATO-Russia conflict that would put them on the “frontline”, as that is a very possible outcome.

But could Putin & China win against NATO?

China: What does it want from the Ukraine crisis with Russia?

As Xi and Putin prepare to meet, China says it supports Russia's concerns - but doesn't want war.

www.bbc.co.uk

In a conventional war? No.

 

[BananaRepublic]

I am not surprised that is their view. However, from what I gather, anything we buy from Russia would almost immediately cease if they were taken out of SWIFT and there are obviously fairly wide ranging consequences for a lot of people if that was to happen.

The German's are worried, not only because of the risk to their Russian gas supplies (and the ability to pay for them), but because they're heavily embroiled in trade and industrial contracts with Russian companies.
The Italians wanted to exclude their sales of luxury goods and cars from any sanctions.
A lot of Russian money is sloshing around in Italy.

 

[Gathursty]

As Russian tanks are making a beeline to Kiev to get straight to the government and try to stop the war immediately, once again I say we direct every MOAB and nuclear weapon at the Kremlin and given Putin 15 minutes.

 

[YorkshireBear]

And we all know where that would lead!

 

[ainsworth74]

As Russian tanks are making a beeline to Kiev to get straight to the government and try to stop the war immediately, once again I say we direct every MOAB and nuclear weapon at the Kremlin and given Putin 15 minutes.

Well I'm glad you're nowhere near the levers of power then. You're starting to make Putin sound reasonable and sane.

 

[adrock1976]

British and other European and Far Eastern nation's aircraft were allowed to overfly Russia (USSR) during the Cold War, from the late 1970's onwards.
i.e. flying between Europe and the Far East.
Japan Airlines was the first airline allowed on the route, followed by others, including BA.
Initially, refuelling stops had to be made in Moscow, before longer range aircraft made that stop unnecessary in the late '80's, which coincided with the fall of the USSR.

Prior to that, the "traditional" route was via the Middle East, India and SE Asia. ...and from the late 1960's, the quickest and shortest way was via the "Polar Route", with a refuelling stop in Alaska (usually Anchorage).

Regarding the Polar Route, is that still commonly used today?

A thought that came into mind was that due to crossing the International Date Line, you would be travelling backwards by one day via that route.

 

[RichJF]

As Russian tanks are making a beeline to Kiev to get straight to the government and try to stop the war immediately, once again I say we direct every MOAB and nuclear weapon at the Kremlin and given Putin 15 minutes.

I can't work out if this is a deliberate troll comment or an actual serious post!

As someone who works closely with companies involved with defence & the MoD, thank god you are nowhere near the level of decision making. By taking the steps you advocate, you actually give Putin a mandate to directly threaten a nuclear strike against the UK & destroy our way of life.
The point of nuclear weapons is the ultimate ultimate last resort; a weapon so disgusting that it would end humanity as we know it!

 

[najaB]

In a conventional war? No.

And nobody wins in a nuclear war. Except the species that takes over the Earth after us.

 

[DustyBin]

And nobody wins in a nuclear war. Except the species that takes over the Earth after us.

Very true!

 

[adrock1976]

A small snippet from the penultimate former US Ambassador to the then USSR Jack Matlock via the Democracy Now website

But the reason that I testified, along with a number of other people — many of them had been influential in bringing the Cold War to the end. The reason I testified against expanding NATO expansion — against expanding NATO, in the beginning, in the late ’90s, was because we had — at the end of the Cold War, we had removed the Iron Curtain. We had created what we had aimed for: a Europe whole and free. And it was obvious, if you start piecemeal expanding NATO, you are going to — without including Russia — you are going to once again precipitate a buildup of arms and a competition, an armed competition, then. But there was no reason to do it at that time. Russia was not threatening any East European country. Actually, the Soviet Union in its last years was not, because Gorbachev had accepted the democratization of the East European countries. And actually, one of the last acts of the Soviet parliament was to recognize the freedom and independence of the three Baltic countries, so that we had a Europe whole and free. The task was to build a security architecture that would include them all. And the reason I testified against it was that I saw that a process that we started then, if continued, and if continued up to the borders of the Soviet Union — I mean, to the borders of Russia and included former parts of the Soviet Union that were recognized as part of the Soviet Union at that time, such as, most importantly, Ukraine and Georgia, that this would bring about a confrontation.

The original can be found at https://www.democracynow.org/2022/2...uy3XnHJS-rX7L0lLwbYFYDHC1euQce8bG2ToHhxAhV2Uc

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Indeed. The pertinent question is have they considered the implications of a full scale NATO-Russia conflict that would put them on the “frontline”, as that is a very possible outcome.

Maybe those, like myself do believe that we should be willing to defend Ukraine militarily, if asked by their Government to do so, *have* considered those implications. But maybe, we have also considered the implications of appeasing dictators who constantly respond to appeasement by coming back for more, and maybe we have also considered the lessons of the Cold War, when a willingness to escalate if necessary was arguably precisely what prevented a full scale conflict from happening.

And maybe we have also considered the likely consequences for Taiwan if China gets the message that the the West isn't willing to defend allies when they are invaded.

 

[nw1]

As Russian tanks are making a beeline to Kiev to get straight to the government and try to stop the war immediately, once again I say we direct every MOAB and nuclear weapon at the Kremlin and given Putin 15 minutes.

I presume this is ironic. We certainly don't want nuclear threats being made.

 

[daodao]

Separately to this point, Ukraine has few friends able or willing to provide practical help and their resistance is admirable but futile. Notwithstanding their obvious and unalloyed right to exist as a sovereign nation - and let me repeat again that Putin is the aggressor and the bad guy here - Ukraine's conduct as a nation has been of, er, questionable wisdom over the last ten years. They have a preposterous leader, a literal comedian for a president. They unwisely staged a coup in 2014, encouraged by ideas of EU membership. They unwisely set up a regiment of neo-Nazis, whereby they basically took a volunteer militia of unfettered fascists and football hooligans and gave them official badges with Nazi insignia. The Azov battalion is literally a part of the army and is the most monumentally stupid thing for Ukraine to have done because this allows their enemies to project that regiment's evils on the whole populace. Ukraine continued to seek support from the EU and NATO even prior to the current crisis and has gone along with the West's unwise objective of trying to strip Ukraine away from the very overbearing orbit of Russia.

Russia is aggressive and borderline psychopathic in its conduct, having used war as statecraft numerous times in the Putin era. South Ossetia, Chechnya, Georgia, Syria, Crimea, etc etc. Why provoke such an angry and insecure state?

I agree - and the moral is "don't poke the bear".

 

[dosxuk]

Regarding the Polar Route, is that still commonly used today?

A thought that came into mind was that due to crossing the International Date Line, you would be travelling backwards by one day via that route.

Polar route is a lot further. For UK - far east routes, it's only really Hong Kong, Beijing and Tokyo where there is a significant portion of Russian overflight. London to Singapore regularly goes to the south of the Ukraine, as airlines have been avoiding the airspace ever since MH17.

(from gcmap.com - plots "great circle" routes between airports)

Going via Anchorage adds a lot of distance on to those sort of routes, around 2000nm extra for a flight to Tokyo (but this is still shorter than the current longest commercial flights).

 

[birchesgreen]

So RT are citing Farage as an example of a British politician who supports Russia. If this doesn't finish Nigel off i don't know what will.

 

[nw1]

So RT are citing Farage as an example of a British politician who supports Russia. If this doesn't finish Nigel off i don't know what will.

He certainly appears to blame the EU and Nato for the conflict, rather than Putin himself.

Doesn't surprise me that much, as, while Putin is a million times worse, I do see similarities in their politics if I am brutally honest. Seeing the EU as more to blame than Putin is just so typical of him.

Blaming people other than Putin for this is like blaming people other than Hitler (who might have 'provoked' him) for WW2.

Having said that I will say that it was monumentally stupid for European countries to do gas deals with the Putin administration.

 

[DanNCL]

I agree - and the moral is "don't poke the bear".

The “Russian Bear” hasn’t been poked. Have Western countries poisoned people they don’t like on Russian soil? Have Western countries invaded their neighbour for trying to join a competing defence alliance? Because they’re both things Russia have done to the West.

 

[LOL The Irony]

On top of the UCL final being moved to Paris, the Russian GP has been cancelled.

 

[daodao]

He certainly appears to blame the EU and Nato for the conflict, rather than Putin himself.

Doesn't surprise me that much, as, while Putin is a million times worse, I do see similarities in their politics if I am brutally honest. Seeing the EU as more to blame than Putin is just so typical of him.

Blaming people other than Putin for this is like blaming people other than Hitler (who might have 'provoked' him) for WW2.

Having said that I will say that it was monumentally stupid for European countries to do gas deals with the Putin administration.

I agree with Farage that the EU and NATO sowed the seeds of this conflict, and he said so in spring 2014, but Putin is directly responsible for the attack itself.

Similarly, the Bavarian Socialist Republic of 1919 sowed some of the seeds for WW2, but in no way were directly responsible for it.

 

[AlterEgo]

The “Russian Bear” hasn’t been poked. Have Western countries poisoned people they don’t like on Russian soil? Have Western countries invaded their neighbour for trying to join a competing defence alliance? Because they’re both things Russia have done to the West.

The point is not whether you actually poke the bear but whether the bear believes it is being poked.

 

[nw1]

I agree with Farage that the EU and NATO sowed the seeds of this conflict, and he said so in spring 2014, but Putin is directly responsible for the attack itself.

Similarly, the Bavarian Socialist Republic of 1919 sowed some of the seeds for WW2, but in no way were directly responsible for it.

Maybe Farage ought to be attacking Putin more than other organisations though. The fact he isn't speaks volumes, it appears to me that his fanatical hatred of the EU is causing him to use any excuse to attack that organisation above anyone else.

 

[DanNCL]

The point is not whether you actually poke the bear but whether the bear believes it is being poked.

We’ve only got to breathe and the “Russian Bear” thinks it’s being poked.

 

[Gostav]

The “Russian Bear” hasn’t been poked. Have Western countries poisoned people they don’t like on Russian soil? Have Western countries invaded their neighbour for trying to join a competing defence alliance? Because they’re both things Russia have done to the West.

Really? Have you forgotten how Western public opinion supports Chechenya separatists?

 

[AlterEgo]

We’ve only got to breathe and the “Russian Bear” thinks it’s being poked.

Not really. You have to do things like what Ukraine has done. Ukraine has the absolute right to pursue its own path and its violation by Russia is a crime, but that doesn’t detract from the very unwise path they decided to take prior to this.