Transpennine Industrial Relations

[baz962]

That has to be ARL?

Almost certainly. Before I left I was told that they were nearly 80%.

I think most train planners would accept that there will be new technology that would make their jobs easier and in time reduce the need for so many planners. Currently the technology is not there yet and the one that has been tried tends to be “too clever for its own good” hence the need for human interaction.

As for teaching you’d rightly be up in arms if you knew what teachers had to put up with on a daily basis for £35k. And don’t bring holidays into it because as a train planner I with normal holidays I have more free time than I had as a teacher.

My daughter works in the private sector at Sainsbury’s, extra time is paid at the going rate including additional days. They get plenty of volunteers for overtime because the wages are so low.

Drivers are on a pretty good basic wage (in most cases £50k plus) but still want massive enhancements for working their rest days. How can it be reasonable that a driver can be called in to do 3 hours work and get paid 17.5 hours minimum? No wonder the DfT won’t sign off new agreements like that! I know of one driver that actually drove a train for 20 mins on his Rest Day but still got the full rate!

I’d agree that TOCs need to take on more staff to avoid the need for RDW and they should be implementing this.

As for me I’m quite happy with my lot and I’ll point out that many train planners are on no where near £40k. NHS staff are on appalling wages for the work they do (harder work than train drivers).

As for being envious, not really I couldn’t be a train driver as I could stand the weight of the chips on my shoulders!

And as I predicted the Tories are going to try and implement a minimum service level even during industrial action:

MPs pressure Government to stop transport unions holding strikes

MPs said tough new laws are needed to smash the power of militant unions for transport workers and prevent them from 'holding the country to ransom' as another London Tube strike gets underway.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The old and tired NHS get this and teachers get that. It's never that bad. Yes student nurses and junior doctors. My local hospital and not in London were advertising for a nurse in midwifery for over 50k. That was around three or four years ago. My son in laws mum is a headteacher on over 60k. Again not in London. I know a signaller who was a teacher in London and not head on 54k. And I know many ex police that are now drivers and all were on between 45 to 55k. Yes granted not all are. But universally say they are all on 25 -35 is misleading.

 

[nedchester]

As a train driver I haven't a single crispy bit on my shoulder let alone a chip. I've done various jobs on the railway from box boy to signalman & roster clerk to planning & boooking office. I wouldn't want to do anything else after doing this for almost 24 years however. We get treated excellently & apart from some shifts I'm more than happy with my lot. Infact many days it's a joy to come to work especially when I've got a decent trainee or doing test trains like this week. No complaints here.

And you sound like the majority of train drivers that I know and have been friends with for years.

A shame that a few seem to have a lack of realism.

No-one thinks that people shouldn't get a decent rate of pay for the job they do.

 

[seagull]

Drivers are on a pretty good basic wage (in most cases £50k plus) but still want massive enhancements for working their rest days.

As for being envious, not really I couldn’t be a train driver as I could stand the weight of the chips on my shoulders!

The first part quoted above shows that you do not know the first thing about how rest day incentives work. If drivers (or anyone else for that matter) want to actually enjoy their rest days off, as you do your weekends, then they generally won't work as the basic salary is enough to live on. If the company need cover for those rest days due to sickness/maternity/vacancies etc. then they need to entice workers to come in, and one way is to offer a significant extra bonus. Or cancel trains instead. Very simple.
The same holds true for any industry, even staff on minimum wage won't come in on days off willingly unless either they are desperate for extra money, or get offered an incentive.

As for the second part, your postings here clearly show who has the biggest chips on their shoulder...

 

[Efini92]

Almost certainly. Before I left I was told that they were nearly 80%.


The old and tired NHS get this and teachers get that. It's never that bad. Yes student nurses and junior doctors. My local hospital and not in London were advertising for a nurse in midwifery for over 50k. That was around three or four years ago. My son in laws mum is a headteacher on over 60k. Again not in London. I know a signaller who was a teacher in London and not head on 54k. And I know many ex police that are now drivers and all were on between 45 to 55k. Yes granted not all are. But universally say they are all on 25 -35 is misleading.

Their figures are misleading anyway because of the banding structure.
I hate that its always a race to the bottom in this country.

 

[Bald Rick]

That has to be ARL?

It isn’t. Nor TfL rail.

 

[43066]

The old and tired NHS get this and teachers get that. It's never that bad. Yes student nurses and junior doctors. My local hospital and not in London were advertising for a nurse in midwifery for over 50k. That was around three or four years ago. My son in laws mum is a headteacher on over 60k. Again not in London. I know a signaller who was a teacher in London and not head on 54k. And I know many ex police that are now drivers and all were on between 45 to 55k. Yes granted not all are. But universally say they are all on 25 -35 is misleading.

And always looking down rather than up: it’s always “my daughter who works twenty five hours a day in sainsburys” rather than “my mate who earns £200k for helping his employer to pay less tax and just bought his second property in Putney”. And almost always from people who earn fairly modest salaries themselves.

It’s a legacy of Thatcherism I suppose and it works like a charm; the solidarity of the working class has been destroyed. People have been programmed by the Daily Mail to regard unions as evil and seethe with envy at the bloke down the road, who earns a few quid more and has a slightly nicer car, while ignoring the guy who owns the properties they and their neighbours are renting, who is quite possibly paying a lower rate of tax!

This is why the trade union movement (what little is left of it) is so important.

It isn’t. Nor TfL rail.

Interesting.

Thameslink have seemed to be mighty busy through the core of late (of course the tube shutdown will have exacerbated that). There isn’t really anyone else it could be, so has to be them!

 

[Llandudno]

It isn’t. Nor TfL rail.

Presumably LNER as they are probably the only operator running a near full pre Covid timetable?

 

[Signal_Box]

I think most train planners would accept that there will be new technology that would make their jobs easier and in time reduce the need for so many planners. Currently the technology is not there yet and the one that has been tried tends to be “too clever for its own good” hence the need for human interaction.

As for teaching you’d rightly be up in arms if you knew what teachers had to put up with on a daily basis for £35k. And don’t bring holidays into it because as a train planner I with normal holidays I have more free time than I had as a teacher.

My daughter works in the private sector at Sainsbury’s, extra time is paid at the going rate including additional days. They get plenty of volunteers for overtime because the wages are so low.

Drivers are on a pretty good basic wage (in most cases £50k plus) but still want massive enhancements for working their rest days. How can it be reasonable that a driver can be called in to do 3 hours work and get paid 17.5 hours minimum? No wonder the DfT won’t sign off new agreements like that! I know of one driver that actually drove a train for 20 mins on his Rest Day but still got the full rate!

I’d agree that TOCs need to take on more staff to avoid the need for RDW and they should be implementing this.

As for me I’m quite happy with my lot and I’ll point out that many train planners are on no where near £40k. NHS staff are on appalling wages for the work they do (harder work than train drivers).

As for being envious, not really I couldn’t be a train driver as I could stand the weight of the chips on my shoulders!

And as I predicted the Tories are going to try and implement a minimum service level even during industrial action:

MPs pressure Government to stop transport unions holding strikes

MPs said tough new laws are needed to smash the power of militant unions for transport workers and prevent them from 'holding the country to ransom' as another London Tube strike gets underway.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Go with me on this one for a second….

You out of work, or even in work but looking for a new job.

You see job A is a vocation, long hours, poor pay and pension but it’s one of those jobs which give warm glow, and can offer a career.

Job B is a job, very little in terms of a career, good wages, terms and pension.

Be honest now, which would you course ?

I’m B every day of the week, 95% of people will go with me. There is a special 5% who’ll take option A for the glow and status it gives, then after global events have a rather elevated self importance.
They signed up for the job knowing full well what they signed up for, if they didn’t then that’s their own fault for not digging deep enough pre sign up.

If person B can earn three times the national average wage, and plough a significant sum back into the economy then great and congratulations to them. Their families life chances will be greatly increased because of if.

Person A may well struggle to live in major cities or even struggle to buy in less glamorous areas, need to use a good bank (something has gone wrong there in their management of money), and simply not able to afford to have a child. Well that’s their choice for rhe career path they took.

To want to bring down person Bs standard of employment to that of A or ideally (in some quarters) worse seems to be a trait of those who are simply jealous or unable to attain the standards to do person Bs job.

Let’s be honest he train driving or train crew in generally really isn’t rocket science it’s a learned skill. So it really iso open to 99% of the population who have a average level of education.

We as working class people should be United in improving our life not fighting to drag those who are on a better wage down to our level.

 

[Bald Rick]

There isn’t really anyone else it could be, so has to be them!

It’s not them. I said they serve London, but not exclusively London. And no I’m not saying any more than that!

Go with me on this one for a second….

You out of work, or even in work but looking for a new job.

You see job A is a vocation, long hours, poor pay and pension but it’s one of those jobs which give warm glow, and can offer a career.

Job B is a job, very little in terms of a career, good wages, terms and pension.

Be honest now, which would you course ?

I’m B every day of the week, 95% of people will go with me. There is a special 5% who’ll take option A for the glow and status it gives, then after global events have a rather elevated self importance.
They signed up for the job knowing full well what they signed up for, if they didn’t then that’s their own fault for not digging deep enough pre sign up.

If person B can earn three times the national average wage, and plough a significant sum back into the economy then great and congratulations to them. Their families life chances will be greatly increased because of if.

Person A may well struggle to live in major cities or even struggle to buy in less glamorous areas, need to use a good bank (something has gone wrong there in their management of money), and simply not able to afford to have a child. Well that’s their choice for rhe career path they took.

To want to bring down person Bs standard of employment to that of A or ideally (in some quarters) worse seems to be a trait of those who are simply jealous or unable to attain the standards to do person Bs job.

Let’s be honest he train driving or train crew in generally really isn’t rocket science it’s a learned skill. So it really iso open to 99% of the population who have a average level of education.

We as working class people should be United in improving our life not fighting to drag those who are on a better wage down to our level.

Maybe I’m strange, as I chose A, over 30 years ago (although the pension is good).

 

[Watershed]

Presumably LNER as they are probably the only operator running a near full pre Covid timetable?

They are running more services than pre Covid! (Albeit fewer than they had planned to run at this stage)

 

[Bald Rick]

They are running more services than pre Covid! (Albeit fewer than they had planned to run at this stage)

So are London Overground and TfL Rail...

 

[142blue]

I'm not sure what the relevance of that is?

They had a 0% rise last year, and this year's is below inflation.

I'll tell you what the relevance is, no pay rise for three years, costs £15 more to fill the car, gas / elec doubled, council tax up, broadband increased, weekly shop costs more, water up £5 a month and much more.

Meanwhile these lot pocket a nice little payrise on top of all the expenses whilst we all suffer

They take the £20 universal credit uplift away from those in need but line their own pockets

This is the most loathsome government since Thatcher and that took some beating.

 

[43066]

It’s not them. I said they serve London, but not exclusively London. And no I’m not saying any more than that!

They are running more services than pre Covid! (Albeit fewer than they had planned to run at this stage)

Re. LNER I certainly wouldn’t have expected that…

I suppose it’s because long distance leisure travel and occasional commuting for meetings is bouncing back with a vengeance (and quicker than the five day per week 9-5ing which happens closer to london).

 

[dctraindriver]

It isn’t. Nor TfL rail.

Who is it then?

 

[O L Leigh]

As a train driver I haven't a single crispy bit on my shoulder let alone a chip. I've done various jobs on the railway from box boy to signalman & roster clerk to planning & boooking office. I wouldn't want to do anything else after doing this for almost 24 years however. We get treated excellently & apart from some shifts I'm more than happy with my lot. Infact many days it's a joy to come to work especially when I've got a decent trainee or doing test trains like this week. No complaints here.

Although I don't have the benefit of your experience, I think I'd broadly agree. I came from outside the industry and know what it's like outside "the bubble", so I do see the difference that having strong staff-side representation has.

But while I'm generally content with my lot, what does irk me is the constant sniping from people who seem to want to drag me, my job and my industry down. Others have already said what I feel about such comments effectively representing a race to the bottom. For as long as there have been people there have been people worse off, and to suggest that we should all be meekly grateful for our lot because of it irritates me immensely. Teachers and nurses always seem to get wheeled out to back this point up, but it wasn't until after I joined the railways that I achieved anything near pay parity with my schoolteacher ex, and even then she was still the main earner.

Perhaps this discussion needs to be turned 180 degrees. Maybe what is being demonstrated here is just what can be achieved with strong representation. That union membership is virtually non-existent in many workplaces does not mean that union representation is unavailable. Maybe, rather than sniping, more people should be looking at exactly what their employment rights include and taking better advantage of them. Had this been the case at my last pre-railway employer, I'm sure that they would not have simply imposed new contracts of employment on the staff without consultation.

 

[Moonshot]

Extra dates now been announced for more strike action.......including Saturdays as well as Sundays.

 

[Eccles1983]

Just a point -

"They got paid a full day for 20 minutes work"

Let's break this down.

Firstly that person gave up a day of rest, then prepared for work by ensuring that they complied with the alcohol policy the night before - so whilst the pencil pushers may think it is only 20 minutes the driver actually started getting ready for it hours before. Put in travelling time the total time period lost by a person doing the company a favour would be several hours.

Secondly - the company saved money by ensuring this duty was covered. Cancelled trains cost much more than a driver coming in and doing work.

Lastly - the driver didn't demand that money. The company offered it.

Sounds like the roster clerk who pushes this agenda has an attitude problem. I will always do extras for good ones. One's with the attitude displayed here will get nothing from me.

 

[43096]

Just a point -

"They got paid a full day for 20 minutes work"

Let's break this down.

Firstly that person gave up a day of rest, then prepared for work by ensuring that they complied with the alcohol policy the night before - so whilst the pencil pushers may think it is only 20 minutes the driver actually started getting ready for it hours before. Put in travelling time the total time period lost by a person doing the company a favour would be several hours.

Secondly - the company saved money by ensuring this duty was covered. Cancelled trains cost much more than a driver coming in and doing work.

Lastly - the driver didn't demand that money. The company offered it.

Sounds like the roster clerk who pushes this agenda has an attitude problem. I will always do extras for good ones. One's with the attitude displayed here will get nothing from me.

Funny really you banging on about attitude. Referring to people as "pencil pushers" just betrays your attitude. The railway won't run without them. Same as it won't run without drivers, guards, signallers, p-way teams and a host of others. It also won't run without managers.

 

[dk1]

Although I don't have the benefit of your experience, I think I'd broadly agree. I came from outside the industry and know what it's like outside "the bubble", so I do see the difference that having strong staff-side representation has.

But while I'm generally content with my lot, what does irk me is the constant sniping from people who seem to want to drag me, my job and my industry down. Others have already said what I feel about such comments effectively representing a race to the bottom. For as long as there have been people there have been people worse off, and to suggest that we should all be meekly grateful for our lot because of it irritates me immensely. Teachers and nurses always seem to get wheeled out to back this point up, but it wasn't until after I joined the railways that I achieved anything near pay parity with my schoolteacher ex, and even then she was still the main earner.

Perhaps this discussion needs to be turned 180 degrees. Maybe what is being demonstrated here is just what can be achieved with strong representation. That union membership is virtually non-existent in many workplaces does not mean that union representation is unavailable. Maybe, rather than sniping, more people should be looking at exactly what their employment rights include and taking better advantage of them. Had this been the case at my last pre-railway employer, I'm sure that they would not have simply imposed new contracts of employment on the staff without consultation.

Very true & you put the point across well.

 

[Eccles1983]

Funny really you banging on about attitude. Referring to people as "pencil pushers" just betrays your attitude. The railway won't run without them. Same as it won't run without drivers, guards, signallers, p-way teams and a host of others. It also won't run without managers.

It will run without rostering clerks.

It does in many places as the job is subsumed into a dtm/hr role.

No problem with my attitude, everyone has a place. Pencil pushers included. What I take issue with is the continual gripes from one said pusher of pencils about another grade.

Signed, a semi pencil pusher/lever puller.

 

[Signal_Box]

If your role is 0900-1700 Monday to Thursday, 0900-1600 Friday then the railway can run without you….

 

[Carlisle]

If your role is 0900-1700 Monday to Thursday, 0900-1600 Friday then the railway can run without you….

Probably unlikely in many cases , otherwise perpetually skint BR would’ve axed such roles decades ago.

 

[nedchester]

If your role is 0900-1700 Monday to Thursday, 0900-1600 Friday then the railway can run without you….

Aye no one to do those STP timetables and sort out the pay…….

 

[Bald Rick]

If your role is 0900-1700 Monday to Thursday, 0900-1600 Friday then the railway can run without you….

Aye no one to do those STP timetables and sort out the pay…….

Or do the rosters, or plan maintenance work, or assess level crossing safety, or run the accounts to make sure there’s enough mone6 to pay colleagues, or set fares, or try to convince Government not to close parts of the network...

 

[TUC]

What I do object to is TPE advising passengers in their announcements about the strike to consider whether their journey is necessary. Of course passengers should be advised about the potential for disruption, but life is not just made up of things that are 'necessary'. Getting the passengers where they need to go on strike days is TPE's problem, not for passengers to fit their lives around the rail industry.

 

[whoosh]

Pure greed

Where I work we had GUARANTEED Rest Day Work for a period.
Filled the pool with hot water that summer. Happy days!

Just a point -

"They got paid a full day for 20 minutes work"

Let's break this down.

Agree with your post. Like a Plumber's call out charge - there's more to it. The Plumber had to travel to get there and change plans/turn down other work to come out.

 

[Killingworth]

What I do object to is TPE advising passengers in their announcements about the strike to consider whether their journey is necessary. Of course passengers should be advised about the potential for disruption, but life is not just made up of things that are 'necessary'. Getting the passengers where they need to go on strike days is TPE's problem, not for passengers to fit their lives around the rail industry.

I suppose it's good advice. As far as passengers are concerned rail isn't a service to rely on in TPE/Northern land, particularly at weekends.

To add to it no trains by Northern between Edale and Sheffield next weekend, despite EMR and TPE apparently running normal services between Sheffield and Manchester, strike cancellations allowing. Whats that all about? Surely not engineering work if 2 TOCs can run? Recently Northern have been the most reliable of the 3 TOCs between the two cities on Saturdays and Sundays. Not a good way to get people out of their cars.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Extra dates now been announced for more strike action.......including Saturdays as well as Sundays.

Which Saturday's though? As I've got a few errands to do on one upcoming Saturday which will include a 5.30am departure because of where I'm going to warrants the early start and late finish.

 

[Fokx]

Which Saturday's though? As I've got a few errands to do on one upcoming Saturday which will include a 5.30am departure because of where I'm going to warrants the early start and late finish.

• Sunday 13th March 2022
• Sunday 20th March 2022
• Sunday 27th March 2022
• Sunday 3rd April 2022
• Saturday 16th April 2022
• Sunday 17th April 2022
• Saturday 30th April 2022
• Sunday 1st May 2022
• Saturday 4th June 2022
• Sunday 5th June 2022

 

[dk1]

At least Grand National weekend is clear.