Transpennine Industrial Relations

[Starmill]

A multiplier of 1.15 (sometimes written as *1.15) and an increase of 15% (sometimes written as +15%) are definitely the same thing.

 

[Atishyou]

So it’s a 15% increase on the overtime rate then. .15 of £1 and 15% of £1 are the same thing.

They didn't say it like that. It was a .15% increase on overtime, RMT said it was a "15% increase on blue book terms" to make it look like it was an offer of a raise and stir up trouble.

And no, it's not a 15% increase when the previous rate was higher, it's actually a drop.

A multiplier of 1.15 (sometimes written as *1.15) and an increase of 15% (sometimes written as +15%) are definitely the same thing.

My point being the RMT were trying to stir up division between grades by what they wrote and how they wrote it. They're not stupid, they knew exactly what they were doing.

I said .15 and 15 were different, not 1.15 and 15. The important thing being what goes before the decimal.

 

[Fokx]

My point being the RMT were trying to stir up division between grades by what they wrote and how they wrote it. They're not stupid, they knew exactly what they were doing.

They weren’t.

The RMT reps are currently seeking an enhancement of the existing 2010 green book conditions regarding overtime. They were told pretty much point blank, no.

ASLEF reps onbehalf of the drivers did the same, and sought after a similar agreement and the company later came back with a time and 15%.

RMT aren’t having a go at the drivers themselves nor ASLEF, but the company for treating the two grades with completely different distain, despite both being required to physically run trains in passenger service. RMT are not verbally attacking or slating drivers, but simply stating that they’ve been told no, but at the same time they’re saying yes to other areas of the business.

A increase factor of 1.15 is still an increase on 1. It’s not a real terms increase, but we all know the RD and overtime payments will never be the same rate as they were previously (although I do agree they should be higher than 15% as it’s not worth getting out of bed for)

 

[Atishyou]

They weren’t.

The RMT reps are currently seeking an enhancement of the existing 2010 green book conditions regarding overtime. They were told pretty much point blank, no.

ASLEF reps onbehalf of the drivers did the same, and sought after a similar agreement and the company later came back with a time and 15%.

RMT aren’t having a go at the drivers themselves nor ASLEF, but the company for treating the two grades with completely different distain, despite both being required to physically run trains in passenger service. RMT are not verbally attacking or slating drivers, but simply stating that they’ve been told no, but at the same time they’re saying yes to other areas of the business.

A increase factor of 1.15 is still an increase on 1. It’s not a real terms increase, but we all know the RD and overtime payments will never be the same rate as they were previously (although I do agree they should be higher than 15% as it’s not worth getting out of bed for)

The drivers I know at TPE felt very much that it was a go at them, especially as many guards had been asking them why they were being offered a 15% pay rise.

I don't think we disagree that overtime should be paid at an enhanced rate for all grades, but again, that falls down to what the RMT have agreed in the past for guards.

 

[MDB1images]

Aside from the ongoing strikes on sundays, there have been alot of cancellations on the TPE North route and liverpool to glasgow amongs others. Tomorrow (28th may), amongst the worst hit is the liverpool to newcastle route, i wonder how long this could go on for? I believe there are lot of absences in the york TPE depot too.

I think the only sensible solution to the WCML services will be an emergency timetable as the level of daily cancellations is now high each day.
The obvious problem to this is when the trains do run they are very busy.
Long term though things can't carry on as Northern are now starting to cancel trains on the West side and Avanti also have some bad days of shortages.

 

[Some guy]

I think the only sensible solution to the WCML services will be an emergency timetable as the level of daily cancellations is now high each day.
The obvious problem to this is when the trains do run they are very busy.
Long term though things can't carry on as Northern are now starting to cancel trains on the West side and Avanti also have some bad days of shortages.

Or they could get over depots to to work west coast services. Liverpool depot could easily run the 3 services out towards Preston/ Carlisle with a Preston or Glasgow member to cover the rest or even open an edinburgh TPEdepot so they can focus on the east coast and Glasgow crews can focus on just west coast services

 

[MichaelAMW]

Not quite as clear cut as that. ASLEF removed the RDW agreement due to a disagreement about covid measures. The company seem happy enough without one, as negotiations have only just started about a new agreement. Drivers didn't directly have a say in it either way.

So, why can't a driver just work a rest day anyway? I guess I can see that having an agreement in place is helpful but if TPE offers overtime then why can't the individual driver decide whether and when to work extra? That could keep things ticking over, and be good for the passenger and the company, while a new agreement is being sorted out. I have always been mystified about situations where a union seems to feel it should intervene in an arrangement that is essentially about the contract between employer and employee. I've always seen unions as being there to help members, not tell them what to do.

 

[GordonT]

So, why can't a driver just work a rest day anyway? I guess I can see that having an agreement in place is helpful but if TPE offers overtime then why can't the individual driver decide whether and when to work extra? That could keep things ticking over, and be good for the passenger and the company, while a new agreement is being sorted out. I have always been mystified about situations where a union seems to feel it should intervene in an arrangement that is essentially about the contract between employer and employee. I've always seen unions as being there to help members, not tell them what to do.

I think the clue is in the first word of the expression "collective bargaining". To be an effective helper of its members there is an expectation that its membership will act in unity. Another expression which is sometimes cited in this context is "united we stand - divided we fall".

 

[43066]

I have always been mystified about situations where a union seems to feel it should intervene in an arrangement that is essentially about the contract between employer and employee.

With all due respect if you’re mystified as to why a union would “intervene” in these matters then you fundamentally misunderstand what unions are and their raison d’etre.

 

[MDB1images]

Or they could get over depots to to work west coast services. Liverpool depot could easily run the 3 services out towards Preston/ Carlisle with a Preston or Glasgow member to cover the rest or even open an edinburgh TPEdepot so they can focus on the east coast and Glasgow crews can focus on just west coast services

If money wasn't an issue I suspect the DFT would agree to a RD work agreement as that's much cheaper than any other options and wouldn't impact on crewing at other locations.

 

[Fred Dinenage]

Maybe not directly, but they're still the people who the union representatives are elected to give voice to.

Yes. Same as when ASLEF pulled Northern’s RDW agreement. Elected reps, as you say. But drivers weren’t consulted, and lots of them are unhappy about RDW disappearing.

 

[Carlisle]

With all due respect if you’re mystified as to why a union would “intervene” in these matters then you fundamentally misunderstand what unions are and their raison d’etre.

You’ve failed to mention drivers are sufficiently well paid to absorb a long term refusal of overtime otherwise a sizeable proportion simply wouldn’t observe such bans without adequate compensation form their union.
Other professions might not be as well paid or just have a far better relationship & understanding with their employer than much of the railway does.
Your bound to say the ultimate answer is every workforce having an equivalently strong union but most live on the real world where government doesn’t underwrite the entire business.

 

[Watershed]

Or they could get over depots to to work west coast services. Liverpool depot could easily run the 3 services out towards Preston/ Carlisle with a Preston or Glasgow member to cover the rest or even open an edinburgh TPEdepot so they can focus on the east coast and Glasgow crews can focus on just west coast services

Any of those solutions would take a very long time. Whilst they potentially make sense from a long term perspective, they aren't going to solve the current issues.

 

[the sniper]

You’ve failed to mention drivers are sufficiently well paid to absorb a long term refusal of overtime otherwise a sizeable proportion simply wouldn’t observe such bans without adequate compensation form their union.
Other professions might not be as well paid or just have a far better relationship & understanding with their employer than much of the railway does.

You're failing to mention most of them understand that is largely due to the success of the union, which was achievable because the solidarity and support of its members. If people just did whatever, they probably wouldn't be in that position...

 

[43066]

You’ve failed to mention drivers are generally sufficiently well paid to absorb a long term refusal of overtime whereas many other professions might not be.,yes theoretically every workforce should have an equivalently strong union but most of us live on the real world where government doesn’t underweight everything

I didn’t mention it because it wasn’t directly relevant to the point I was responding to. Train drivers are reasonably well paid but hardly “rich” in the grand scheme of things.

The railway is a part of the “real world”, too. Thankfully just not the bit of it where everyone stabs their colleagues in the back and earns poverty pay so that they have to grab every morsel of overtime going. It’s a pity so many in this country seem to think that anything other than that is some quaint vision of the past.

 

[Carlisle]

In

You're failing to mention most of them understand that is largely due to the success of the union,

You probably don’t live in an area served by TPE if you think the word success should be associated with either it’s unions or management

 

[the sniper]

You probably don’t live in an area served by TPE if you think the word success should be associated with either it’s unions or management

Did you not see what I'd quoted, which you wrote, the point to which my post was in reference to...?

 

[43066]

if you think the word success should be associated with either it’s unions or management

One of those two runs the company which contracts with passengers to provide a service. The other doesn’t represent passengers’ interests at all.

Sadly many on here still don’t seem to know which is which.

 

[pnepaul]

Not a good day for TPE's Glasgow/ Edinburgh routes. I reckon about 50% cancelled. To make matters worse Avanti services were very very busy, well the ones I saw!.

On the other hand, I caught the 1701 TPE service from Preston to Carlisle, cancelled from Liverpool Lime St. It was almost empty, just 2 in the coach I occupied!. All went well to Penrith, but that's another story...

Moderator note: Thread temporarily locked until there are any further developments; when that happens,if anyone wishes for the thread to be reopened, please contact us with a draft of what you wish to post.

 

[Fokx]

Just a quick update on the Conductor Grade at TPE:

Saturday and Sunday action is currently on hiatus due to the national RMT action taking place.

What this will mean for the Conductor grade is that:

• Services on Sundays will start to return to relative normal as conductors will now return to working their booked Sundays (which averages at around 1 in 3 depending on the depot).
• Action short of strike is still ongoing. RMT Conductor grade members are instructed not to work any overtime or rest days until further notice (contractual obligations excepted)
• Conductor grade members will continue to carry out revenue operations without scanning QR/Aztec code tickets.

What this means for passengers:

• Sunday services will be restored to the planned May timetable change. However, There will still continue to be some cancelled and altered services on Sundays due to a lack of volunteer staff due to the overtime ban, planned TPRU engineering work, driver industrial relations and traincrew route knowledge.
• Services are still subject to industrial action on other days/dates due to national strike action. (Eg. 21/23/25 of June)

 

[Andyh82]

Two points there that are quite mad

The union telling staff that if they want to earn a bit more money by working overtime then they aren’t allowed to

And forcing them to do revenue duties in a harder way I.e actually looking closely and reading tickets to see if they are valid rather than just waving a scanner about which does the job for you.

 

[yorkie]

We'll just hold this thread here for now and reopen it in due course