Manchester & North West Transformation Programme

[Glenn1969]

That's more of an issue with the 10 trams per hour Alty has, though. I would be very surprised if Rose Hill didn't get 5, it's got nowhere near the same traffic potential.

How much of this is likely to get funded. I read a Railnews piece yesterday saying TfN only has £7m funding for the next year after asking for £115m- most of that request was for high speed rail planning though

 

[Watershed]

Electrifying one of the two lines* between Manchester and Liverpool was enough to allow the fast Liverpool to Manchester airport services to be electrified

In theory yes, but that's not what ended up happening. The Liverpool to Manchester Airport (semi)fast services run via the CLC, to provide a half-hourly (semi)fast service over the route.

 

[Djgr]

As Elvis once said
"A little less conversation, a little more action, please"

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Eliminating the single track bottleneck at Navigation Road was one of the objectives of the Hale/Altrincham to Rose Hill proposal. It creates problems when trams don't run to time and usually results in a southbound service being terminated at Timperley to prevent delays in the city centre later on.

Interesting! Not seen that. How might the Navigation Road "bottleneck" be resolved without compulsorily purchasing properties immediately adjacent to the tracks? (Assuming here that Metrolink services are to continue to be kept separate from heavy rail trains).

 

[Bletchleyite]

How might the Navigation Road "bottleneck" be resolved without compulsorily purchasing properties immediately adjacent to the tracks? (Assuming here that Metrolink services are to continue to be kept separate from heavy rail trains).

Tram-train vehicles have been suggested as an option, it would then just be a double track railway. No plans to electrify it any time soon so tram OHLE would be fine.

 

[Greybeard33]

From the TfN report:

Following DfT confirmation of a development and design funding allocation of £26m which will fund Network Rail to develop Tranche 1 to Full Business Case and further development of Tranches 2 and 3, Network Rail have now let design contracts for key Tranche 1 works. This includes the 3rd platform at Salford Crescent, Salford area east facing turnback, new northwest platform at Manchester Victoria and Manchester Airport station platform lengthening and track layout.

Can anyone suggest where the "Salford area east facing turnback" will be located? Presumably it will have to be somewhere west of Salford Central station?

 

[Elecman]

From the TfN report:

Can anyone suggest where the "Salford area east facing turnback" will be located? Presumably it will have to be somewhere west of Salford Central station?

The sidings west of Salford Crescent?

 

[Watershed]

The sidings west of Salford Crescent?

They already exist and are used on occasion. The issue is that you have to (unnecessarily) conflict with traffic on the Windsor Link corridor to turnback there.

If you're going to do something like this, I would have thought it would make more sense looking into using the Hope Street freight sidings as a turnback facility, or simply adding a second reversing siding west of Victoria (perhaps at the northern side, between the two Fast lines - the formation is plenty wide enough for it).

That said, the issue with terminating capacity in Manchester has long been west-facing rather than east-facing. So I'm not quite sure where these proposals have come from.

 

[pemma]

Tram-train vehicles have been suggested as an option, it would then just be a double track railway. No plans to electrify it any time soon so tram OHLE would be fine.

We did have a report which showed a very high BCR for electrification between Chester and Stockport, mainly due to the level of freight using the line and short distances between stations between Greenback and Navigation Road. It is ironic that Drax run freight trains boasting sustainable biomass on the livery, when they are hauled by diesel locos.

There's also no plans for tram-trains anytime soon at the moment. How long did the Oldham conversion take to get from a proposal to a functional Metrolink system? Wasn't it over 15 years? And that materialised much quicker than the Trafford Centre spur.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That said, the issue with terminating capacity in Manchester has long been west-facing rather than east-facing. So I'm not quite sure where these proposals have come from.

It appears (though I can't recall where I saw it now) that an additional west facing terminal platform at Vic (which will be a Picc 13-14 like trek) is also included. You can see on Google Earth a fairly obvious location for it on the disused viaduct that butts up against the Arena building.

 

[Tayway]

It appears (though I can't recall where I saw it now) that an additional west facing terminal platform at Vic (which will be a Picc 13-14 like trek) is also included. You can see on Google Earth a fairly obvious location for it on the disused viaduct that butts up against the Arena building.

I would hope that if they went to all that effort they would have more than one west-facing terminal platform. Are there space constraints that make multiple platforms unfeasible?

 

[Purple Orange]

It appears (though I can't recall where I saw it now) that an additional west facing terminal platform at Vic (which will be a Picc 13-14 like trek) is also included. You can see on Google Earth a fairly obvious location for it on the disused viaduct that butts up against the Arena building.

Although not ideally located for passengers, if it provides the required west facing capacity, then great. I do wonder what services it would deal with. Perhaps North Wales, Cumbria or maybe Blackpool services? A 6-car 195 or 331 would require a 150m platform.

 

[Greybeard33]

If you're going to do something like this, I would have thought it would make more sense looking into using the Hope Street freight sidings as a turnback facility, or simply adding a second reversing siding west of Victoria (perhaps at the northern side, between the two Fast lines - the formation is plenty wide enough for it).

That said, the issue with terminating capacity in Manchester has long been west-facing rather than east-facing. So I'm not quite sure where these proposals have come from.

Terminating trains from the Rochdale Fast lines currently have to cross the Slow lines between Miles Platting and Victoria to access the Platform 1 & 2 bays. A turnback siding on the northern side will enable these trains to use Platforms 5 & 6, avoiding crossing movements. Also the bays are too short to allow future lengthening of Calder Valley trains.

 

[BrianW]

As Elvis once said
"A little less conversation, a little more action, please"

Agreed. The Forum is of course for discussing plans and ideas, from the 'no-brainer' to the speculative 'madness'; it would be nice to see more praise for tentative steps toward investment, especially against a background of at least understandably reducing and reduced 'public expenditure' and reduced rail useage. A lot of comment seems to suggest that all 'planners' (and politicians) are useless and/or malign.
Two cheers?

 

[Watershed]

Terminating trains from the Rochdale Fast lines currently have to cross the Slow lines between Miles Platting and Victoria to access the Platform 1 & 2 bays. A turnback siding on the northern side will enable these trains to use Platforms 5 & 6, avoiding crossing movements. Also the bays are too short to allow future lengthening of Calder Valley trains.

Indeed, but without extra west facing bay platforms (or reversing sidings) it will be difficult to split services such as Rochdale to Clitheroe, Leeds to Wigan, and Southport to Stalybridge into two.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed, but without extra west facing bay platforms (or reversing sidings) it will be difficult to split services such as Rochdale to Clitheroe, Leeds to Wigan, and Southport to Stalybridge into two.

With regards to Rochdale to Clitheroe above, would it not be better for a Rochdale to Blackburn direct service via the Copy Pit line, leaving from the east-facing bay platform at Rochdale station. How safe in financial terms is the service from Blackburn to Clitheroe as a viable entity?

Does anyone know of any future plans for the viaduct line that once led from Manchester Victoria station to the carriage sidings complex at Red Bank? On the other side of the Cheetham Hill Road bridge, there has been much in the way of new-build development where new terminal west-facing platforms could be built.

 

[Moonshot]

Terminating trains from the Rochdale Fast lines currently have to cross the Slow lines between Miles Platting and Victoria to access the Platform 1 & 2 bays. A turnback siding on the northern side will enable these trains to use Platforms 5 & 6, avoiding crossing movements. Also the bays are too short to allow future lengthening of Calder Valley trains.

A 6 car turn back siding is in the process of being built right now on the Northern side ....we were briefed on this a few weeks ago

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Terminating trains from the Rochdale Fast lines currently have to cross the Slow lines between Miles Platting and Victoria to access the Platform 1 & 2 bays. A turnback siding on the northern side will enable these trains to use Platforms 5 & 6, avoiding crossing movements. Also the bays are too short to allow future lengthening of Calder Valley trains.

Have any discussions ever been held to turn platforms 1 and 2 into dedicated Metrolink terminal platforms?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would hope that if they went to all that effort they would have more than one west-facing terminal platform. Are there space constraints that make multiple platforms unfeasible?

I reckon you could fit 2 or even 3 platforms there, but as it is an old structure I guess it will depend on its condition.

 

[Purple Orange]

I reckon you could fit 2 or even 3 platforms there, but as it is an old structure I guess it will depend on its condition.

It was originally planned to be two platforms if I recall correctly, so there’s no reason why that plan couldn’t be implemented now. What needs to be avoided is the time and effort to build 1 platform when further down the line capacity constraints demand a 2nd platform. Worse still would be designing a platform that means a 2nd can no longer be built.

In a practical sense, would it be an island platform meaning we have two platform faces?

 

[CdBrux]

Terminating trains from the Rochdale Fast lines currently have to cross the Slow lines between Miles Platting and Victoria to access the Platform 1 & 2 bays. A turnback siding on the northern side will enable these trains to use Platforms 5 & 6, avoiding crossing movements. Also the bays are too short to allow future lengthening of Calder Valley trains.

Would it be possible to finally add one or two platforms at Salford Central to work both as a reversing siding and allow the terminating services to serive another station, well sited for a large employment area and growing residential catchment area?

 

[snowball]

Have any discussions ever been held to turn platforms 1 and 2 into dedicated Metrolink terminal platforms?

Aren't the existing Metrolink platforms enough to meet the need for Metrolink platforms?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aren't the existing Metrolink platforms enough to meet the need for Metrolink platforms?

Terminating services at Vic rather than running across the city would be very unpopular, so I suspect so. There is a reversing bay in the present layout.

If they're not needed due to trains being too long for them at all times, I'd fill them in and create a proper concourse with retail and seating, moving the gateline a bit to accommodate it. Victoria's facilities are abysmal and the place feels oppressive.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I can't quite see the logic of Rochdale electrification over something like the Marple lines, unless it is going to be the first phase of a guaranteed full Calder Valley electrification and / or there is a plan for a half-hourly Rochdale - Victoria (and beyond) stopping train.

I was pondering the same. How many trains terminate or start from Rochdale which are currently diesel, could be replaced by EMUs ?

Or looking at it another way, once electrified, could electric trains which currently terminate at Victoria become through trains to and from Rochdale, because the current industry thinking prefers through trains at large stations - provided crew relief is not likely to be an issue.

 

[pemma]

2030 for the CLC! I'm glad it's not a big job!

Great news if it happens though.

It's very unambitious compared to previous plans. In 2015 the following were proposed to start in the five year period from 2019

• Calder Valley (Full)
• Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington Central
• Southport/Kirkby to Salford Crescent
• Chester to Stockport
• Northallerton to Middlesbrough
• Leeds to York via Harrogate
• Selby to Hull
• Sheffield (Meadowhall) to Leeds via Barnsley / Castleford & connections
• Bolton to Clitheroe
• Sheffield to Doncaster/Wakefield Westgate (Dearne Valley)
• Hazel Grove to Buxton
• Warrington to Chester

Electrification Task Force Final Report Revealed | Rail North

That may have been something to do with a General Election two months after that report was released.

I was pondering the same. How many trains terminate or start from Rochdale which are currently diesel, could be replaced by EMUs ?

Or looking at it another way, once electrified, could electric trains which currently terminate at Victoria become through trains to and from Rochdale, because the current industry thinking prefers through trains at large stations - provided crew relief is not likely to be an issue.

Currently an hourly Clitheroe to Rochdale service terminates there. All other services continue to Todmorden and beyond.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was pondering the same. How many trains terminate or start from Rochdale which are currently diesel, could be replaced by EMUs ?

Or looking at it another way, once electrified, could electric trains which currently terminate at Victoria become through trains to and from Rochdale, because the current industry thinking prefers through trains at large stations - provided crew relief is not likely to be an issue.

The first thought that sprung to my mind is not that you'd replace anything that currently goes there for that reason, but rather it'd be a terminus of convenience for electric services from the west - a northern Manchester Airport, if you like. Basically a very long reversing siding.

One service which could go there (once reinstated) is the Preston-Manchester Victoria service. Another might be a Wigan NW-Manchester Victoria fast EMU if one is to be added later. Or even move the Scottish service there.

 

[507020]

Currently an hourly Clitheroe to Rochdale service terminates there. All other services continue to Todmorden and beyond.

There is effectively going to be no option other than bi-mode 331s for Calder Valley through services, rejoining the wires at either Bradford Interchange or Heaton Lodge Junction. The Wigan - Leeds service could run under the wires via Bolton with the Diesel Southport going via Atherton. There would be options for Rochdale/Stalybridge - Blackpool N/Preston/Wigan NW via Bolton or Chat Moss/Lime St via CLC (Castlefield) or Chat Moss/Warrington BQ via Earlestown and Airport/Stockport/Hazel Grove/Alderley Edge via Ordsall Chord and Castlefield pure electric services though and it does say some reconfiguration of the service pattern may be necessary. Is Rochdale likely to get 100mph running?

 

[snowball]

Or looking at it another way, once electrified, could electric trains which currently terminate at Victoria become through trains to and from Rochdale, because the current industry thinking prefers through trains at large stations - provided crew relief is not likely to be an issue.

In the original North West electrification plan, services arriving from the west at Victoria would, to avoid terminating there, have been extended to Stalybridge if electric or to Rochdale if diesel.

It's very unambitious compared to previous plans. In 2015 the following were proposed to start in the five year period from 2019

Electrification Task Force Final Report Revealed | Rail North

However, nothing in that plan was an official government proposal.

 

[Greybeard33]

Indeed, but without extra west facing bay platforms (or reversing sidings) it will be difficult to split services such as Rochdale to Clitheroe, Leeds to Wigan, and Southport to Stalybridge into two.

One of the Leeds via Bradford services currently terminates at Victoria, and that is planned to continue in the December MRTF timetable. This service could make use of the new turnback siding.

A 6 car turn back siding is in the process of being built right now on the Northern side ....we were briefed on this a few weeks ago

Thanks for the information.

 

[jonesy3001]

Will newton heath depot be also electrified during the works, unable to download due to memory problems.