Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[fgwrich]

There is a muttering on the grapevine that 2 701s are close to ready for a sign off, so perhaps both SWR & SET need slightly less worry for now. He says for the moment...

SWR's get out of the whole clause is as mentioned above, restore some of the de-activated 455s. But, if they are correct, then at least a 2 x 10 car will help them... a little bit.

 

[TEW]

Not sure if it's directly connected, but I've noticed the last couple of weeks the Waterloo - Weybridge service no longer has any 707s on it at all.

The diagrams changed in February when the 456s came off lease and there haven't been any booked since then.

 

[Snow1964]

The agreement between SWR and SE is that they're going in August. They're subleased by SE to SWR so the latter doesn't have any say in the matter.

The DfT will have historical data that shows commuting always tails off during the school summer holidays, and trains are busy again from September (in pre-pandemic), so unlikely to be enthusiastic to extend it.

Further they have agreed transfers of units from SE to Southern during the Autumn, so that all the 313s on coastal services can be withdrawn by December timetable change. So SWR is not going to be able to hang on to 707s beyond the summer.

But there comes a point where someone has to draw a line in the sand, move on from what has happened, and effectively say get your act together and commission the trains. Remember the first ones should have entered service around September 2019, a third should have been working pre-covid (by March 2020), and final ones in service by December 2020.

By this August, about third of them will be over 2.5 years late, another third at least 2 years late and the balance over 18 months late. Delaying them further just means serious overhaul work needs to be authorised to keep 455s running, and ultimately money talks, nobody is going to want to pay millions in alternatives to keep the 701s idle.

 

[Goldfish62]

But there comes a point where someone has to draw a line in the sand, move on from what has happened, and effectively say get your act together and commission the trains. Remember the first ones should have entered service around September 2019, a third should have been working pre-covid (by March 2020), and final ones in service by December 2020.

I really don't understand what the issue is with these trains. It seems to be that they have to be absolute perfect in all respects for all parties concerned before they're introduced, which is not something I'm aware has ever been achieved before for any new train. Certainly, the 458s, 450s and 707s all had their issues. They still entered service though, as have Aventras at other TOCs (which also incidentally retain the original cab layout complete with bright warning lights and loud alarms, which seemingly ASLEF has deemed acceptable for other TOCs, but not SWR).

Then we have SWR and DfT. I'm surprised no one has tried to force the issue yet. There's also Alstom. At some stage they're going to consider that they've produced a train that is equivalent in all relevant respects to those already in service at other TOCs and conclude that's its purely an industrial relations problem at SWR causing the trains not to enter service. They will then want payment for the trains they've built.

 

[supervc-10]

I don't consider the Northern interior design gaudy. On the 195s and 331s with the various different shades of blue in conjunction with the wood-grain on the tables, it's pretty nice. The problem on the refurbished stock is that they've used poor quality retro-fit LED lighting which skews the whole colour spectrum towards blue and makes everything feel plain and flat, leading to a tacky, cheap appearance. The blue seats exacerbate this and are just the icing on the cake.

The black seat backs though are awful. Cannot understand why they did that.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I really don't understand what the issue is with these trains. It seems to be that they have to be absolute perfect in all respects for all parties concerned before they're introduced, which is not something I'm aware has ever been achieved before for any new train. Certainly, the 458s, 450s and 707s all had their issues. They still entered service though, as have Aventras at other TOCs (which also incidentally retain the original cab layout complete with bright warning lights and loud alarms, which seemingly ASLEF has deemed acceptable for other TOCs, but not SWR).

Then we have SWR and DfT. I'm surprised no one has tried to force the issue yet. There's also Alstom. At some stage they're going to consider that they've produced a train that is equivalent in all relevant respects to those already in service at other TOCs and conclude that's its purely an industrial relations problem at SWR causing the trains not to enter service. They will then want payment for the trains they've built.

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC (the rolling stock owners) has made significant payments on account to Bombardier ne Alstom already but have also received hefty liquidated damages for late delivery which are an admission of failure by the supplier to provide the product as specified. I would surmise also that First SWR will have also received some compensation for late delivery and clearly won't be paying any leasing charges currently. Alstom if they believe they have supplied a fully compliant defect free product would be legally entitled to pursue Rock Rail for full payment for those units but I suspect they won't want to be seen as aggressive currently as there reputation would suffer even if morally right.

If i was DofT i would be quite happy no units are accepted as there are no leasing charges defacto cost of supporting First SWR is reduced.

 

[Goldfish62]

If i was DofT i would be quite happy no units are accepted as there are no leasing charges defacto cost of supporting First SWR is reduced.

If that's the case then I would expect the DfT (not DofT..) to put a halt to all new train introductions, but I can't see that happening.

What happens when SWR no longer sufficient rolling stock for passenger numbers? Will the DfT still be happy to maintain the status quo and let new trains rot away in sidings?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

If that's the case then I would expect the DfT (not DofT..) to put a halt to all new train introductions, but I can't see that happening.

What happens when SWR no longer sufficient rolling stock for passenger numbers? Will the DfT still be happy to maintain the status quo and let new trains rot away in sidings?

DfT (thanks for pointing that out) won't interfere with the process of train introduction as there are contractual agreements in place. My observation was that DfT mandarins trying to balance the budget must be quietly grateful that the cost of supporting SWR doesn't have to cover the more expensive 701 fleet currently. At least First SWR have the possibility of big influx of capacity if demand comes back. Over on GTR Southern are abandoning the 455/8's and maxing out 377 diagrams so if demand does recover they don't have a new fleet at least lined up in the wings to provide additional capacity.

 

[Goldfish62]

DfT (thanks for pointing that out) won't interfere with the process of train introduction as there are contractual agreements in place. My observation was that DfT mandarins trying to balance the budget must be quietly grateful that the cost of supporting SWR doesn't have to cover the more expensive 701 fleet currently. At least First SWR have the possibility of big influx of capacity if demand comes back. Over on GTR Southern are abandoning the 455/8's and maxing out 377 diagrams so if demand does recover they don't have a new fleet at least lined up in the wings to provide additional capacity.

Yes, that's fair comment, but only for the very short term. DfT will be fully aware that once the last 707s leave in August SWR is likely to start having serious capacity problems. I go into London around once a week in the morning peak and week-on-week the trains are getting busier and busier.

While there'll be a lull in passenger numbers over the summer they'll be back in September and that's when SWR will start needing the extra capacity of the 701s without having to run extra services (which themselves would need extra rolling stock!).

 

[43096]

Over on GTR Southern are abandoning the 455/8's and maxing out 377 diagrams so if demand does recover they don't have a new fleet at least lined up in the wings to provide additional capacity.

Not new, but the 379s are (currently) available should GTR need extra capacity after the cuts.

 

[spark001uk]

004 went from Feltham to Wimbledon pk today, on 5Q26 1135 Feltham Depot to Wimbledon E.M.U.D.

 

[Snow1964]

DfT (thanks for pointing that out) won't interfere with the process of train introduction as there are contractual agreements in place. My observation was that DfT mandarins trying to balance the budget must be quietly grateful that the cost of supporting SWR doesn't have to cover the more expensive 701 fleet currently. At least First SWR have the possibility of big influx of capacity if demand comes back. Over on GTR Southern are abandoning the 455/8's and maxing out 377 diagrams so if demand does recover they don't have a new fleet at least lined up in the wings to provide additional capacity.

I find this idea that the 701s are expensive to be questionable, as the launch press releases for ordering 750 new vehicles to replace 455, 456, 458, 707 clearly stated was that it was cheaper than getting fewer new trains and retaining some existing fleets.

I also suspect there are costs to retaining the 455s which should all have departed 16 months ago, and costs of keeping the 313s on coastway (because they can’t be released until 707s transfer to SE, releasing 375/377 from SE to Southern). Thus any potential savings on leasing 701s are offset by other costs which should have stopped months ago.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I find this idea that the 701s are expensive to be questionable, as the launch press releases for ordering 750 new vehicles to replace 455, 456, 458, 707 clearly stated was that it was cheaper than getting fewer new trains and retaining some existing fleets.

I also suspect there are costs to retaining the 455s which should all have departed 16 months ago, and costs of keeping the 313s on coastway (because they can’t be released until 707s transfer to SE, releasing 375/377 from SE to Southern). Thus any potential savings on leasing 701s are offset by other costs which should have stopped months ago.

According to ORR Rail industry finance (UK) data portal total rolling stock charges have been increasing year on year due to the new trains being introduced. They don't cite the 701's but in the commentary for last financial year they note the following train operators had the largest increase in costs:

(a) London North Eastern Railway costs increased by £129 million (63.0%) to £333 million due to the introduction of new Azuma trains;
(b) East Midlands Railway costs increase by £14 million (28.8%) to £63 million due to the introduction of the Class 170 Turbostar and Class 360 trains;
(c) TransPennine Express costs increased by £27 million (22.9%) to £146 million due to the introduction of new Mark 5 vehicles

The 701 capital cost was quoted as £900m the book value of the 455's is nothing like this albeit their value would have been increased following retractioning. This was all factored into the First SWR bid and i suspect they thought they would get DOO in with new stock but we know whats happened to that.

Anyhow there ought to an enquiry into whats happening with new rolling stock currently. This isn't the only fleet thats not being put into use for the benefit of the passengers who are indirectly paying for them through the farebox and the tax payer who will be on the hook to support the industry to the tune of billions per year for sometime yet.

​

 

[Wyrleybart]

According to ORR Rail industry finance (UK) data portal total rolling stock charges have been increasing year on year due to the new trains being introduced. They don't cite the 701's but in the commentary for last financial year they note the following train operators had the largest increase in costs:

(a) London North Eastern Railway costs increased by £129 million (63.0%) to £333 million due to the introduction of new Azuma trains;
(b) East Midlands Railway costs increase by £14 million (28.8%) to £63 million due to the introduction of the Class 170 Turbostar and Class 360 trains;
(c) TransPennine Express costs increased by £27 million (22.9%) to £146 million due to the introduction of new Mark 5 vehicles

The 701 capital cost was quoted as £900m the book value of the 455's is nothing like this albeit their value would have been increased following retractioning. This was all factored into the First SWR bid and i suspect they thought they would get DOO in with new stock but we know whats happened to that.

Anyhow there ought to an enquiry into whats happening with new rolling stock currently. This isn't the only fleet thats not being put into use for the benefit of the passengers who are indirectly paying for them through the farebox and the tax payer who will be on the hook to support the industry to the tune of billions per year for sometime yet.

​

You are absolutely right with a b and c in one sense but, they are all provided substantial extra seating for each franchise. In the case of "b" The Corby traffic was served by class 222s and HSTs, Granted the HSTs have gone but all the 222s are still in service therefore the 360s are providing thousands more daily seats per day.

"c". The Mk5s were a service enhancement to provide thousand more seats for TPE although nominally to replace some of the class 185 fleet. Have they done that ? AFAIK all the Mk5 sets are in service, but also all the 185s are still with TPE, as well as the nineteen class 802s.

Methinks some selective accountancy is being referred to

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

You are absolutely right with a b and c in one sense but, they are all provided substantial extra seating for each franchise. In the case of "b" The Corby traffic was served by class 222s and HSTs, Granted the HSTs have gone but all the 222s are still in service therefore the 360s are providing thousands more daily seats per day.

"c". The Mk5s were a service enhancement to provide thousand more seats for TPE although nominally to replace some of the class 185 fleet. Have they done that ? AFAIK all the Mk5 sets are in service, but also all the 185s are still with TPE, as well as the nineteen class 802s.

Methinks some selective accountancy is being referred to

Fair point although the high Azuma costs are as a result of letting the DfT let the contract and not a TOC. Of course the rub is though substantial extra seating when there has been a substantial reduction in traffic which ultimately will necessitate stock moves. First SWR will have too many 701's for the timetable its now planning to run from May 22 now traffic could pick up but evidence is pointing to the days of at least the high peak rush hour extras are now consigned to the history books. So perhaps part of the order should be reassigned to SE to allow more 465's to be withdrawn

 

[Goldfish62]

Fair point although the high Azuma costs are as a result of letting the DfT let the contract and not a TOC. Of course the rub is though substantial extra seating when there has been a substantial reduction in traffic which ultimately will necessitate stock moves. First SWR will have too many 701's for the timetable its now planning to run from May 22 now traffic could pick up but evidence is pointing to the days of at least the high peak rush hour extras are now consigned to the history books. So perhaps part of the order should be reassigned to SE to allow more 465's to be withdrawn

That would mean SE having an even more mixed fleet, which I doubt they'd be too keen on.

My idea would be to operate 701s on more lines - Basingstoke stoppers, Alton, Guildford to Farnham and Ascot to Aldershot. That releases 450s to create a sub-class with 2+2 seating for the Portsmouth line and dump the 458s. But of course the 458s will need to be fully refurbished before they're dumped.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That would mean SE having an even more mixed fleet, which I doubt they'd be too keen on.

My idea would be to operate 701s on more lines - Basingstoke stoppers, Alton, Guildford to Farnham and Ascot to Aldershot. That releases 450s to create a sub-class with 2+2 seating for the Portsmouth line and dump the 458s. But of course the 458s will need to be fully refurbished before they're dumped.

Its a no brainer the 458's aren't needed and agree makes more sense to keep the 701's captive to SWR but unless they bite the bullet and do that the outcome will be too many 701's. Mind you there not the only operator that will have too much stock as GA's order for 720's do.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If 701s end up used on Alton and Basingstoke, I struggle to think what 127x 450s are even needed for, especially as more 444s will become freed by 458s on Portsmouth fasts - and cannot exactly be used up strengthening Weymouths due to the 5 car restriction beyond Bournemouth.

At the moment, Class 450 are booked to the following routes

London Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour fast (to become 458 dominated)
London Waterloo - Portsmouth/Haslemere semi-fast (with 444s, more of which to be released by 458s)
London Waterloo - Portsmouth via Basingstoke (with 444s, more of which to be released by 458s)
London Waterloo - Reading/Windsor/Weybridge (to become 701 worked)
London Waterloo - Alton/Basingstoke semi-fast

Winchester - Bournemouth (with 444s, more of which to be released by 458s)
Ascot - Aldershot requiring 3 single trains
Farnham - Guildford requiring 3 single trains
Southampton Central - Portsmouth requiring 3 single trains
Brockenhurst - Lymington Pier requiring 1 single train

 

[Goldfish62]

If 701s end up used on Alton and Basingstoke, I struggle to think what 127x 450s are even needed for, especially as more 444s will become freed by 458s on Portsmouth fasts - and cannot exactly be used up strengthening Weymouths due to the 5 car restriction beyond Bournemouth.

At the moment, Class 450 are booked to the following routes

London Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour fast (to become 458 dominated)
London Waterloo - Portsmouth/Haslemere semi-fast (with 444s, more of which to be released by 458s)
London Waterloo - Portsmouth via Basingstoke (with 444s, more of which to be released by 458s)
London Waterloo - Reading/Windsor/Weybridge (to become 701 worked)
London Waterloo - Alton/Basingstoke semi-fast

Winchester - Bournemouth (with 444s, more of which to be released by 458s)
Ascot - Aldershot requiring 3 single trains
Farnham - Guildford requiring 3 single trains
Southampton Central - Portsmouth requiring 3 single trains
Brockenhurst - Lymington Pier requiring 1 single train

If you read my post you'll see I'm suggesting dumping the 458s. They're non-standard and not particularly reliable.

 

[pompeyfan]

If 701s end up used on Alton and Basingstoke, I struggle to think what 127x 450s are even needed for, especially as more 444s will become freed by 458s on Portsmouth fasts - and cannot exactly be used up strengthening Weymouths due to the 5 car restriction beyond Bournemouth.

At the moment, Class 450 are booked to the following routes

London Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour fast (to become 458 dominated)
London Waterloo - Portsmouth/Haslemere semi-fast (with 444s, more of which to be released by 458s)
London Waterloo - Portsmouth via Basingstoke (with 444s, more of which to be released by 458s)
London Waterloo - Reading/Windsor/Weybridge (to become 701 worked)
London Waterloo - Alton/Basingstoke semi-fast

Winchester - Bournemouth (with 444s, more of which to be released by 458s)
Ascot - Aldershot requiring 3 single trains
Farnham - Guildford requiring 3 single trains
Southampton Central - Portsmouth requiring 3 single trains
Brockenhurst - Lymington Pier requiring 1 single train

That’s factually incorrect. 458s have never been intended to work the Portsmouth via Basingstoke services. Out of the 45 444s, the vast majority spend their whole day on Weymouth or Bournemouth service groups. There’s a few services which start and end at Fratton depot formed 10.444 but not many. A Real time trains search of Portsmouth and Southsea or Fratton corroborate this.

Also, no one wants the 701s west of Woking, especially not the RMT!

 

[fgwrich]

If you read my post you'll see I'm suggesting dumping the 458s. They're non-standard and not particularly reliable.

It is somewhat intresting that the 458 rebuild project seems to have gone rather quiet of late with just the one unit up at Widnes - I appreciate it was always due to take its time (until 2027) and relies on enough units (mostly 701s) to release the majority of the 458s but I’d have thought Alstom / Porterbrook would have shouted about the first unit to arrive at Widnes at least. I do still get the feeling this project will be dumped.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It is somewhat intresting that the 458 rebuild project seems to have gone rather quiet of late with just the one unit up at Widnes - I appreciate it was always due to take its time (until 2027) and relies on enough units (mostly 701s) to release the majority of the 458s but I’d have thought Alstom / Porterbrook would have shouted about the first unit to arrive at Widnes at least. I do still get the feeling this project will be dumped.

Not before they've wasted a load of money though.

Anyhow if the 707's definitely have to go by August then they will need the 458's given they ain't no chance of even one 701 being in passenger use by then.

 

[Mikey C]

Fair point although the high Azuma costs are as a result of letting the DfT let the contract and not a TOC. Of course the rub is though substantial extra seating when there has been a substantial reduction in traffic which ultimately will necessitate stock moves. First SWR will have too many 701's for the timetable its now planning to run from May 22 now traffic could pick up but evidence is pointing to the days of at least the high peak rush hour extras are now consigned to the history books. So perhaps part of the order should be reassigned to SE to allow more 465's to be withdrawn

If there are too many 701s (and they actually can enter service) surely it would make more sense to share some with GTR Southern, seeing that Southern won't have any high capacity Metro stock once the 455s and 313s depart?

SE can then keep the 377s (or at least some of them) so it then won't have to send 465/9s deep into Kent.

 

[Goldfish62]

There's of course the potential scenario that the 701s will be rejected. That would mean retaining and overhauling the 455s, and the 458s would then probably need to be retained in their current form given they would be the only 10 car trains on the metro network.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

London Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour fast (to become 458 dominated)

Just curious, but has this specific scenario, other than in rumour-ville, ever been confirmed by 'official' sources?

 

[swt_passenger]

Just curious, but has this specific scenario, other than in rumour-ville, ever been confirmed by 'official' sources?

Yes definitely. The SWR statement from April last year is in the dedicated 458 thread.
But also from the current TOC website:

The Class 442 Wessex Electric fleet has now been retired. Following the impact of Covid-19, we withdrew these trains from use in 2020 as part of service reductions. The Portsmouth Direct route between Portsmouth Harbour and London Waterloo via Guildford will benefit from refurbished Class 458 Coradia Juniper trains in the future.

Class 442

www.southwesternrailway.com

 

[Islineclear3_1]

If there are too many 701s (and they actually can enter service) surely it would make more sense to share some with GTR Southern, seeing that Southern won't have any high capacity Metro stock once the 455s and 313s depart?

Do 701s have SDO?

 

[43096]

Do 701s have SDO?

They have to for the Windsor lines.

 

[fgwrich]

There's of course the potential scenario that the 701s will be rejected. That would mean retaining and overhauling the 455s, and the 458s would then probably need to be retained in their current form given they would be the only 10 car trains on the metro network.

Given where we are with the fleet now (and talk of getting a handful in service shortly), I would be highly surprised to see them dumped now in favour of the 455 and 458s. A lot earlier on in the program with half the units built perhaps, but not when almost all of the 10 car units are complete and a start seems to have been made on the 5 car units. I am surprised though that they haven’t chosen to do a Greater Anglia and trim down the 10 car order for more 5 car units though.

That said, this is SWR and anything can happen. My bet is on a solution resulting in the 458s being dumped though.

 

[hwl]

Given where we are with the fleet now (and talk of getting a handful in service shortly), I would be highly surprised to see them dumped now in favour of the 455 and 458s. A lot earlier on in the program with half the units built perhaps, but not when almost all of the 10 car units are complete and a start seems to have been made on the 5 car units. I am surprised though that they haven’t chosen to do a Greater Anglia and trim down the 10 car order for more 5 car units though.

That said, this is SWR and anything can happen. My bet is on a solution resulting in the 458s being dumped though.

GA did that because they didn't have the ability to do heavy maintenance on 10 car sets without the new Brantham depot that got canned, that isn't the case for SWR where Wimbledon can. Adding more 5 car sets would cost more as cabs cost about a quarter of a million each.