Grand National (Liverpool) - Lack of extra/strengthened services

[ExRes]

Won't be any hotels available in the area tonight either. This is in essence a humanitarian emergency, they will need to activate emergency plans to put people up in schools etc if they can't run them.

Won't the horses have finished with their stables by then?

 

[dk1]

Back in the 70s we went on a Merrymaker from Euston. Some bookies had the same idea and were counting their money on the way there. Never seen so much cash!

Seem to remember the stock used to stable alongside the first six fences, (Fazakerley Yard?) now long gone it appears.

Managed to pick the 5th and 6th in todays race, have only picked the winner three times in 40 years.

Got a 2nd & 3rd today so more than happy. I was but a nipper when they climbed on the roof of the MK2s but that probably instilled the passion for the race. Proud to say I’ve been around 20 times since the first time in the late 80s.

 

[westcoaster]

I'm guessing staff might be reluctant to put in RDW for National day, and loads put in leave so they avoid it.

 

[Falcon1200]

But a thousand people stuck on the streets overnight will result in at least one hypothermia case and possibly even a death.

Given what some of the Aintree attendees on Ladies Day were wearing I'm surprised there haven't been hypothermia cases already.....

 

[High Dyke]

Humanitarian emergency? Compared to what is going on in the world? Some perspective please!,

That'll be the underperfoming 230 units between Bedford and Bletchley, causing such crisis situations.

 

[D6130]

Given what some of the Aintree attendees on Ladies Day were wearing I'm surprised there haven't been hypothermia cases already.....

....not to mention broken ankles and Prosecco poisoning!

 

[dk1]

Given what some of the Aintree attendees on Ladies Day were wearing I'm surprised there haven't been hypothermia cases already.....

Doesn’t matter. The volume of alcohol consumption will easily compensate

 

[507020]

Some services strengthened to 3 coaches using 158758 on the Ormskirk to Preston route today.

I just noted the 19:01 from Ormskirk to Preston was extremely busy, full and standing, even on a 3 car 158. Very good news that this will have relieved some crowds at Lime Street later. I heard some passengers say they were going to Lancaster.

 

[dk1]

I just noted the 19:01 from Ormskirk to Preston was extremely busy, full and standing, even on a 3 car 158. Very good news that this will have relieved some crowds at Lime Street later. I heard some passengers say they were going to Lancaster.

We have often used this route in the past if staying in Blackpool. The party after the Races continues in the Railway Tavern at Ormskirk. It gets crush loaded on this gentile route but again all good humoured. The service has improved to hourly I think in the last couple of years.

 

[TUC]

Clearly not. But a thousand people stuck on the streets overnight will result in at least one hypothermia case and possibly even a death.

So none of those thousand people are capable of taking any initiative to look after themselves?

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that this thread is in the UK railway section and is discussing train service provision for the Grand National.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else they are welcome to start a new thread in the appropriate forum section.

thanks

 

[urbophile]

It would be 18:30 before anyone got to Lime St realistically anyway but that’s if you want to leave the course that early. The strict queuing starts to get pretty intense for Merseyrail services too.

Merseyrail do pretty well, but the infrastructure creaks a bit. I arrived at Central station at about 20.10 yesterday, and two packed six-car trains arrived from Aintree within five minutes of each other. Because of the position of the escalators, and the island platform was impossibly full with the race crowds trying to get on the single escalator in the middle of the platform. (There is another escalator at the far end but not as many people use it and getting to it would be perilous). Meanwhile those of us ordinary passengers trying to get to other destinations had to struggle through a mass of overdressed tanked-up individuals (well, not exactly 'over'dressed in the case of the women, but...). The staff coped valiantly but the design of the station worked against them. It's not really big enough for normal use, but with crowds like this it's seriously dangerous.

This is tangential to this thread but either the station needs totally rebuilding, or the once-suggested new station at Paradise street should be built. Either would be a mammoth (and extremely expensive) task but the latter would have the advantage of spreading the crowds more evenly around the city centre, not just on occasions like this but generally.

 

[Kite159]

I noticed Northern were running extra Liverpool - Oxford Road (via Warrington) semifast services using a pair of 3 coach 195s.

I was at Chester when a single 508 rolled in from Liverpool and it took a good 5 minutes for it to empty out.

I was expecting that 222 to be a 7 coach unit for the extra seats, but I guess a 5 coach unit is better than nothing

 

[Starmill]

I think that if too many trains are very close together after the races, the specials can be held at Kirkdale for a few minutes, though many of them don't actually call there.

 

[D6130]

I just noted the 19:01 from Ormskirk to Preston was extremely busy, full and standing, even on a 3 car 158. Very good news that this will have relieved some crowds at Lime Street later. I heard some passengers say they were going to Lancaster.

Full marks to Northern's planners for managing to source one of their few 3 car 158s for this service in lieu of the usual 2 car 150 or 156.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

It's been quite alright in the LNWR services from Lime St, both yesterday and today. Not massively overcrowded and most people have spread themselves out between train times automatically.

Some go straight back, some have had a little drink, some coming back later. Plenty of RPIs, BTP and contract security around too.

 

[gazzaa2]

And not for the first time. Unbelievable incompetence from Avanti, as with most aspects of their operation.

The train at 5 was cancelled from Euston to Lime Street and the last train at 8. The one at 6.04 was also cancelled initially but ended up running somehow.

The service is dreadful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is a wind up of course??

No, it is quite serious. Stranding people overnight in temperatures around zero when there are no hotels available is dangerous and a gross failure of duty of care.

It appears the last Liverpool ran in the end, anyway. The Manchesters didn't though.

 

[Adam0984]

Full marks to Northern's planners for managing to source one of their few 3 car 158s for this service in lieu of the usual 2 car 150 or 156.

It came off the Wigan to Leeds service and was replaced by a 3 car 195

 

[Vespa]

It seems, there is a general decline in public service ethics and a greater willingness to cancel trains without consideration for passengers, especially last trains, covid is used as a convenient excuse to do so, in my drivers job we keep a float of spare drivers as a contingency in case of short notice sick absence or incidents to take over, surely it's not beyond the wit to keep a spare driver and guard for the last train in case of this.

Or is saving money more important than stranding passengers overnight.

 

[dk1]

It seems, there is a general decline in public service ethics and a willingness to cancel trains without consideration for passengers, especially last trains, covid is used as a convenient excuse to do so, in my drivers job we keep a float of spare drivers as a contingency in case of short notice sick absence or incidents to take over, surely it's not beyond the wit to keep a spare driver and guard for the last train in case of this.

Or is saving money more important than stranding passengers overnight.

There will be spare crews but once they are used they are used. At my depot we have standby shifts but in the event they can & will be poached for other uncovered work during the day. It’s often more practical to use taxis to cover for late evening or last service which during the week are often lightly loaded.

To be fair it’s much easier to cover road transport with spare drivers. With railways it usually needs a guard too & additional recourses are not so easy to come by. Saving money doesn’t really come into it in my experience.

 

[gazzaa2]

Why is it the later services on Saturday that are being cancelled left right and centre? The trains out of Euston were generally fine through the day and then it got to 5pm and they were being cancelled all over te place. Thankfully a couple of the Liverpool ones ended up running anyway.

I know there's staffing issues but it seems weird that they were between 5-8pm..

 

[dk1]

Why is it the later services on Saturday that are being cancelled left right and centre? The trains out of Euston were generally fine through the day and then it got to 5pm and they were being cancelled all over te place. Thankfully a couple of the Liverpool ones ended up running anyway.

I know there's staffing issues but it seems weird that they were between 5-8pm..

It’s always been the way that late turns on Saturdays are the ones that people want off & therefore take leave. Also they are the least popular jobs for all bar those wanting the extra overtime to cover. If as has been said many times that the rest day working agreement hasn’t been renewed with the likes of Avanti, who is going to cover such unpopular open shifts?

 

[wobman]

It seems, there is a general decline in public service ethics and a greater willingness to cancel trains without consideration for passengers, especially last trains, covid is used as a convenient excuse to do so, in my drivers job we keep a float of spare drivers as a contingency in case of short notice sick absence or incidents to take over, surely it's not beyond the wit to keep a spare driver and guard for the last train in case of this.

Or is saving money more important than stranding passengers overnight.

At my depot we have asked for standby turns for years but management won't have it, even though its a big depot with multiple routes.
The higher management prefer to save money and cancel services unfortunately, it happens throughout the railway network.

The DFT needs to take responsibility for letting this still happen, it's all about budgets and franchise agreements that they impose.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

It seems, there is a general decline in public service ethics and a greater willingness to cancel trains without consideration for passengers, especially last trains, covid is used as a convenient excuse to do so, in my drivers job we keep a float of spare drivers as a contingency in case of short notice sick absence or incidents to take over, surely it's not beyond the wit to keep a spare driver and guard for the last train in case of this.

Or is saving money more important than stranding passengers overnight.

There are obviously spare jobs in the link for every day, but they get used up quite quickly to cover annual leave (always maxed on Fri/Sat).
I wish RDW would be used to fill up the spare turns but that's not how my TOC work, so if someone who should be spare is AL then there is less spares to cover last minute vacant turns or to cover delays/incidents.

Cross-cover is a big issue for my depot, especially on the drivers side having to cover New St work, and especially evening work!

Covid hasn't been used as an excuse at my TOC since New Year, sickness can still be high regardless.

 

[Towers]

What would be a massive help in getting shifts covered on these sorts of occasions - aside from the obvious further issues casued by industrial disputes - would be for the railway as a whole to ensure that proper support was in place for those who are working. Horse racing in recent years has sadly fallen into the same 'mass gathering of yobs' bracket in as kickball matches, and it's not at all surprising that a lot of staff would rather be somewhere else. I'd hazard a guess that those who were working trains were left largely to their own devices? I'd be pleasantly surprised to be wrong on that. Further fueling the fire by sending crews out to shift thousands of people with two or three car trains does very little to help the situation.

The industry desperately needs to get a grip on this stuff; the DfT might be aiming for a policy of managed decline to keep the numbers down, but that won't work with the sports crowds. The railway used to at the very least be able to fundamentally cope with the numbers, even if not the misbehaving. Even that seems to have well and truly evaporated now.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

What would be a massive help in getting shifts covered on these sorts of occasions - aside from the obvious further issues casued by industrial disputes - would be for the railway as a whole to ensure that proper support was in place for those who are working. Horse racing in recent years has sadly fallen into the same 'mass gathering of yobs' bracket in as kickball matches, and it's not at all surprising that a lot of staff would rather be somewhere else. I'd hazard a guess that those who were working trains were left largely to their own devices? I'd be pleasantly surprised to be wrong on that. Further fueling the fire by sending crews out to shift thousands of people with two or three car trains does very little to help the situation.

The industry desperately needs to get a grip on this stuff; the DfT might be aiming for a policy of managed decline to keep the numbers down, but that won't work with the sports crowds. The railway used to at the very least be able to fundamentally cope with the numbers, even if not the misbehaving. Even that seems to have well and truly evaporated now.

Absolutely, thankfully planning for Ascot for LNWR was well thought-out and the whole event well ran and we'll staffed. This I would mostly attribute to our H&S rep and local management, along with the support of BTP, RPI teams from across the company and private security.

There does need to be more done to support rail services, especially sporting events where intoxication is encouraged. Certain stations are well supported for this, probably from a historical point, others receive nothing or just have a presence rather than actually supporting

 

[Towers]

Absolutely, thankfully planning for Ascot for LNWR was well thought-out and the whole event well ran and we'll staffed. This I would mostly attribute to our H&S rep and local management, along with the support of BTP, RPI teams from across the company and private security.

There does need to be more done to support rail services, especially sporting events where intoxication is encouraged. Certain stations are well supported for this, probably from a historical point, others receive nothing or just have a presence rather than actually supporting

That's encouraging to hear

 

[Chesh]

I decided against visiting the parents (Hartford travelling from Birmingham) when I realised it was the Grand National after past experiences of how packed the train always ended up.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The issues with these big sporting events work both ways. Cancelling late trains is bad. But the sports events organisers have deliberately chosen to put greater strain on late trains with their scheduling plans.

The Grand National used to run at 3.45. It now runs at 5.15, for the TV. It's the same with FA Cup finals starting at 5.30pm not 3pm.

It's easy to blame the railways, but sports event organisers need to take some responsibility too.