How do people afford a car?

[DelayRepay]

Given how high the rent is, my impression is that £30000 is not much beyond poverty. If the rent is £1000 pcm this already takes away half of your post-tax income.

My friend who works in a warehouse would love to earn £30k a year. He earns far less than that yet he manages rent a nice enough flat, run a cheap car, have a reasonable social life and have a holiday each year.

The difference is simply that he doesn't live in the South East of England, and cuts his cloth to fit.

 

[martin2345uk]

£800 a month for a 3 bed terrace house?! That's insanely cheap! Is it in somewhere which will take hours of high-speed train to reach London? Even in Bournemouth this price can only get me at most 1 bed, and in London, probably at most a studio. I'm already looking at a very large part of the South East, approximately the triangle formed by London, Poole and Dover, and Bournemouth is already in the lower end of the prices.

You say it's in a decent location? Where's that?



I don't think a 28-year old male wanting his first car is out of ordinary. And I'm already looking for cars in the low-risk group.

Given how high the rent is, my impression is that £30000 is not much beyond poverty. If the rent is £1000 pcm this already takes away half of your post-tax income.


This is unimaginable as well. Even if I have free parking at home (a rarity if I live in a flat / a terraced house) £50 may only last me for 2-3 months, as most of the places I go in urban areas charge for parking.

I've never lived in a flat that didn't have free residents parking, is that a common thing in the southeast?

 

[Watershed]

£800 a month for a 3 bed terrace house?! That's insanely cheap! Is it in somewhere which will take hours of high-speed train to reach London? Even in Bournemouth this price can only get me at most 1 bed, and in London, probably at most a studio. I'm already looking at a very large part of the South East, approximately the triangle formed by London, Poole and Dover, and Bournemouth is already in the lower end of the prices.

It's certainly on the cheaper side of the spectrum. But I doubt you are going to find somewhere that meets your requirements if you limit your search to south of the Thames. Try entering that limit into Rightmove/Zoopla, with a distance limit of say 100 miles, and see where the closest places are. That might give you an idea.

You say it's in a decent location? Where's that?

Property values generally decrease the further north you get. That doesn't have to mean it will take hours to get to London.

I don't think a 28-year old male wanting his first car is out of ordinary. And I'm already looking for cars in the low-risk group.

I agree; unfortunately you are still in a demographic where car insurance is more expensive. So people regaling you with tales of £300 insurance are being a bit unhelpful. As a foreigner and someone with little NCB, it simply will cost you a fair bit more.

Given how high the rent is, my impression is that £30000 is not much beyond poverty.

The median household income across the UK is £31,400. It would be stretching incredulity to suggest anyone below that is automatically in poverty.

It's true that around 1 in 5 people live in some form of poverty, depending on the definition used, but this still leaves a substantial proportion of the population who live on less than £30,000 and are not in poverty.

A significant proportion of those in poverty are also either retired (where they will inherently have less income) or have children (where they will inherently have higher costs). So as a working person without children, you would have to earn a lot less than £30,000 to be in poverty.

If the rent is £1000 pcm this already takes away half of your post-tax income.

Most people would not consider spending this much of their income on rent. They would either choose somewhere smaller, or shared accommodation, or live somewhere cheaper.

This is unimaginable as well. Even if I have free parking at home (a rarity if I live in a flat / a terraced house) £50 may only last me for 2-3 months, as most of the places I go in urban areas charge for parking.

£50 a year in parking is, again, on the low side. It very much depends on how much driving you do and where you tend to park. If you only go to the town centre once a month and only pay a few pounds for parking each time, it's perfectly feasible. Whereas if you often park at railway stations or city centres where parking is expensive, it will indeed only last you a short time. Either way, it is unlikely to be a substantial contributor to the cost of driving.

 

[miklcct]

Others have already disputed your figures, but in my case I took a bank loan to buy the car. That's paid off now so no ongoing costs. Insurance and breakdown cover are about £300 a year and I probably spend about £200 - £300 on maintenance.

I worked out that when I go to work, the fuel/parking cost about £4.50 a day combined. The bus costs £4.80 for a return journey. So the question shouldn't be how can people afford cars, it should probably be how do people afford to use the bus?!

If I could find £300 insurance I would have already bought a car given how bad the connectivity in Bournemouth to the west or north-west (i.e. in the direction of Bristol) is. The X3 bus isn't a useful railway connection at Salisbury for onward connection to the west.

And how long is your commute? If the £4.80 bus is an express bus running direct on motorways, or a combination of frequent motorway buses having the interchange at a service station, it is a great value since driving itself is a nuisance. A good public transport system is a system which even the rich who owns luxury homes and cars will use, such as the one in Hong Kong. (The rich in Hong Kong, although having cars, use buses, minibuses, or taxis as their main mode of transport because it's so convenient to hail one at the doorstep)

Yes - you will be paying £ 200k for a studio flat in Zone 3 Thameslink - if you want more for your money you'd be better off looking just outside London at Luton, Hatfield or Stevenage where £ 200k will easily get you a 1 or 2 bed flat. You'll be looking at ~20-30 mins to St Pancras.

That will mean I will need to pay £4084 for my annual commute to Kentish Town, more if I need London Terminals. The reason is that only London can provide the facilities (apart from the beach) and the lifestyle I want.

And it will also limit my ability to find jobs as well. By living 20 minutes away on fast trains from St Pancras, anywhere not on the direct Thameslink line will be out of reach for a reasonable commute time when transfer times, onward waiting times, time needed to get to/from the station is added, as travelling within London can take a long time compared to travelling into London.

For where the OP is looking (Zone 3 Thameslink, so Hendon or Cricklewood) that's pretty much the going rate. https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/find.html?searchType=RENT&locationIdentifier=REGION^87511&insId=1&radius=0.0&minPrice=&maxPrice=&minBedrooms=&maxBedrooms=&displayPropertyType=&maxDaysSinceAdded=&sortByPriceDescending=&_includeLetAgreed=on&primaryDisplayPropertyType=&secondaryDisplayPropertyType=&oldDisplayPropertyType=&oldPrimaryDisplayPropertyType=&letType=&letFurnishType=&houseFlatShare=

However if the OP could bear to stray outside the M25 you can easily take 1/3 off that https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/find.html?locationIdentifier=REGION^1263&sortType=1&propertyTypes=&includeLetAgreed=false&mustHave=&dontShow=houseShare,retirement,student&furnishTypes=&keywords=

I don't think it's much cheaper if I go south of the M25. At least I have looked for Brighton, or places on the Thameslink between Brighton and London such as Horley, and I don't see much cheaper rents. It is slightly cheaper in Haywards Heath but not much though.

 

[miklcct]

My friend who works in a warehouse would love to earn £30k a year. He earns far less than that yet he manages rent a nice enough flat, run a cheap car, have a reasonable social life and have a holiday each year.

The difference is simply that he doesn't live in the South East of England, and cuts his cloth to fit.

This is just unimaginable.

In regard to South East v.s. elsewhere, the impression I have got from the forum is that the transport in the North is so bad. A single train cancellation can lead you to an hour of delay. Last trains run so early that it's not possible to use a train home after evening entertainment. The deregulated buses there are so expensive to use. These, in combination of the reduced job opportunities and the lack of facilities, I have already ruled out there as a place for me to live. Therefore, initially I only looked within the triangle bounded by Poole, London and Dover, and now after a year of complete dissatisfaction living in Bournemouth, I only look and budget within the triangle bounded by Hove, London and Dover, and get the conclusion that £30k is poverty wage, and all the numbers I have posted above.

 

[A0wen]

I don't think a 28-year old male wanting his first car is out of ordinary. And I'm already looking for cars in the low-risk group.

BIB - you say that, but given your other figures have been somewhat wide of the mark and I did ask what you'd been looking at that you consider a "low risk group" car - I'll reserve judgement.

 

[ar10642]

My friend who works in a warehouse would love to earn £30k a year. He earns far less than that yet he manages rent a nice enough flat, run a cheap car, have a reasonable social life and have a holiday each year.

The difference is simply that he doesn't live in the South East of England, and cuts his cloth to fit.

Problem is warehouse jobs also need to be done in the South East and they don't really pay any more than they do up north, which is why the whole "simply move somewhere cheaper" argument you often hear isn't particularly useful. Not everyone wants to leave all their friend and family behind in order to get cheaper housing costs either.

 

[A0wen]

I don't think it's much cheaper if I go south of the M25. At least I have looked for Brighton, or places on the Thameslink between Brighton and London such as Horley, and I don't see much cheaper rents. It is slightly cheaper in Haywards Heath but not much though.

Crawley will be cheaper.

Brighton is expensive, has been for years.

See this article https://www.sussexlive.co.uk/news/property/sussex-house-prices-cheapest-towns-6067715

 

[ar10642]

Crawley will be cheaper.

Brighton is expensive, has been for years.

See this article https://www.sussexlive.co.uk/news/property/sussex-house-prices-cheapest-towns-6067715

Crawley is cheap(er) because it's a dump.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And do you really need to have you mum/girlfriend,uncle albert on your policy? That can bump it up too.

If that person is a lower risk it can actually reduce it too! Obviously you can't "front" insurance, the main driver must actually be the main driver, but you can put your Mum on in case she needs to shuffle cars on the driveway or something and it can cause a reduction!

I don't think a 28-year old male wanting his first car is out of ordinary. And I'm already looking for cars in the low-risk group.

It isn't abnormal but it is pricey! The cost will come down.

Given how high the rent is, my impression is that £30000 is not much beyond poverty. If the rent is £1000 pcm this already takes away half of your post-tax income.

It is more usual for young professionals like yourself to house/flat share in London. It is not usual to have your own place due to the cost of housing there. Typically in London people share when young and get a first place with their partner once they are in a long term relationship,

This is unimaginable as well. Even if I have free parking at home (a rarity if I live in a flat / a terraced house) £50 may only last me for 2-3 months, as most of the places I go in urban areas charge for parking.

London is the one place in the UK where a car is an encumbrance. Outside London free parking at home is the norm, even on street. There are only normally permit schemes where there is a problem with non resident parking, e.g. near stations and town centres.

 

[A0wen]

Crawley is cheap(er) because it's a dump.

There is a saying about beggars and choosers I suggest you acquaint yourself with.

Most of us make compromises when buying our first houses - that's life I'm afraid. You seem to have an inflated and unrealistic view of what you should be entitled to.

 

[90019]

How do people here have their car insurance so cheap?

Insurance groups are meaningless nowadays, it's all about the typical driver of a car and how often they're involved in accidents - so what may seem like something cheap to insure could have the premiums bumped up because they're driven by higher risk drivers and/or involved in more insurance claims.


My daily driver is a Volvo XC60 which costs me about £250 a year fully comp (I'm 31 and live in a flat in the centre of Edinburgh).
I've just sold my second car and I'm currently deciding between two very different cars to replace it - a Renault Twingo or a Fiat Barchetta.
The Twingo being a small hatchback with a 1.2 litre engine you would expect to be nice and cheap, but it'll cost the same as the Volvo at around £250.
Meanwhile the Fiat is a left hand drive sports car with a 1.7 litre engine so you might expect it to be more expensive but, using exactly the same details, it'll actually be around £150.


Try looking at cars not typically driven by young people, as they tend to be considered higher risk and have higher premiums as a result.

 

[ar10642]

There is a saying about beggars and choosers I suggest you acquaint yourself with.

Most of us make compromises when buying our first houses - that's life I'm afraid. You seem to have an inflated and unrealistic view of what you should be entitled to.

Would rather rent forever than live there. Not sure how that makes me "entitled".

In the other thread all I've done is point out the railway will never cut costs significantly without large scale closures. And maybe fares should be more reasonable. Again not sure what's entitled about that.

 

[Runningaround]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #39 originally in this thread.


Are most of the people in the UK so rich that they can afford private cars?

Before we can put a car on the road, we already need to pay insurance which, for the lowest-risk groups, already costs £700+ upwards per year. And we need to spare a few hundred pounds for general maintenance as well, that's already £1000 p.a. before any depreciation.

Then we come the car price. Of course you can buy very old cars having more than 10 years and 100k miles which have already been fully depreciated at just £1000, but how reliable are they? Anything less than that we have to include depreciation as well, and also the cost of capital. If we buy a 5-year car, the price will be commonly around £4000 - £5000, which if we run it until it becomes 10 years old, the depreciation itself will cost another £1000 p.a.

And finally we need fuel to run the car. Given how expensive petrol price is, at £1.7 per L, even for a very economic car at 8 L / 100 miles, that's £13.6 to run 100 miles. If we commute 30 miles per day for 232 days per year (52 weeks of 5 days work - 28 days of holidays), that's £946.56, nearly another £1000 p.a. even with minimal holiday travel.

The above already totals £3000 p.a., which can already get you nearly 4 annual train tickets between Hendon and Stratford, about 14 miles by car.

And, don't forget, the biggest car expense apart from depreciation is the PARKING!!! A search at Stashbee reveals that the market price of a monthly parking is around £200 - £300 pcm, which is approximately £3000 p.a. So the total cost of car ownership is as high as £6000 p.a. - approximately £9000 of pre-tax salary at 20% income tax rate + 13.5% National Insurance rate. This is absolutely a luxury to most people.

The rent has already eaten most of the annual income for most workers in the UK. For a family requiring a 2-bedroom flat, which usually costs £1200 pcm (which isn't even in the City centre and requiring travel to work), then another £150 for food each adult, and £100 for household bills, a salary of £30000 p.a. - a typical figure of full-time employment - can just get a family of 2 adults and a child the most basic needs of living.

Sorry, but I don't see how a car is affordable for those earning below £50000 p.a. Even if earning that much, the money is better put into buying a home instead, which nowadays costs £400k upwards. Of course it's possible buy a home at just £150k in somewhere in rural Kent, very far away from any decent economic activity, but then you will need to commute by high-speed train as using a car to the City will take you more than 2 hours in peak hours.

What planet are you on? You've gone full on exaggeration here. P.A a Car is cheaper than the train the bigger the family even more.So you saying 50,000 per year isn't enough to travel by train?
A car allows more freedom to work to earn more. Trains don't get you to within meters of the site, you can't carry tools on a bus and thet hardly run at night or sundays. Ditching the car removes the ability to earn

 

[A0wen]

Citroen C1

So look at something a bit different - the C1/108/Aygo are very popular with young drivers which means they are more likely to be involved in a bump.

Try looking at a Suzuki Alto, Nissan Pixo or Vauxhall Agila. Alternatively if you're looking at £1000-£2000 cars see what quotes you get on cars which "pensioners" like - Toyota Auris, lowest power version, Honda Jazz, Ford Fusion (which was basically a jacked up Fiesta), Vauxhall Meriva, Skoda Roomster. No, you won't be making a fashion statement, but you then have to decide what's more important - image or cost.

Would rather rent forever than live there

Fine, your decision.

But with that attitude you'll be renting forever.

 

[ar10642]

So look at something a bit different - the C1/108/Aygo are very popular with young drivers which means they are more likely to be involved in a bump.

Try looking at a Suzuki Alto, Nissan Pixo or Vauxhall Agila. Alternatively if you're looking at £1000-£2000 cars see what quotes you get on cars which "pensioners" like - Toyota Auris, lowest power version, Honda Jazz, Ford Fusion (which was basically a jacked up Fiesta), Vauxhall Meriva, Skoda Roomster. No, you won't be making a fashion statement, but you then have to decide what's more important - image or cost.



Fine, your decision.

But with that attitude you'll be renting forever.

I will be anyway, might as well not live in a 60s hellhole.

 

[A0wen]

Would rather rent forever than live there. Not sure how that makes me "entitled".

In the other thread all I've done is point out the railway will never cut costs significantly without large scale closures. And maybe fares should be more reasonable. Again not sure what's entitled about that.

BIB
So who makes up the gap in revenue?

The railways are already heavily subsidised - so do you want a higher tax bill but a lower train fare?

 

[yorksrob]

I work in a town and commute to a city. A car would be a pointless expense for me as I wouldn't use it for work as the train's there, and I wouldn't use it for leisure as the train's there and I like a drink.

It would be like having another heating boiler to go wrong expensively !

Expensive
Hassle
Potential to go wrong
Requirement to stay sober.

I'm out.

 

[ar10642]

BIB
So who makes up the gap in revenue?

The railways are already heavily subsidised - so do you want a higher tax bill but a lower train fare?

You sell more tickets because they are priced more competitively. The same way Tescos make more money by not selling bog roll at £20 each.

 

[miklcct]

If that person is a lower risk it can actually reduce it too! Obviously you can't "front" insurance, the main driver must actually be the main driver, but you can put your Mum on in case she needs to shuffle cars on the driveway or something and it can cause a reduction!



It isn't abnormal but it is pricey! The cost will come down.



It is more usual for young professionals like yourself to house/flat share in London. It is not usual to have your own place due to the cost of housing there. Typically in London people share when young and get a first place with their partner once they are in a long term relationship,

House share is not suitable for me as I really have to have my own place especially kitchen in my home, and I will be likely to piss off people unless they have the exact 100% the same lifestyle with me. (In other words I'm only willing to share with housemates with a particular set of life goals in order to have a harmonious life)

I haven't got in a long term relationship yet but it's possible that my partner will only have earning potential of £25k p.a. as she isn't a high-skilled professional. I am interested in a girl but she only earns about £19k p.a. and lives with her family in Reading at the moment. It will be even harder to afford a place with a low-earning partner rather than alone.

There is a saying about beggars and choosers I suggest you acquaint yourself with.

Most of us make compromises when buying our first houses - that's life I'm afraid. You seem to have an inflated and unrealistic view of what you should be entitled to.

Buying a home in Hong Kong is even more unrealistic - the income (and rent) level is similar but the house price is about double that of London!

Insurance groups are meaningless nowadays, it's all about the typical driver of a car and how often they're involved in accidents - so what may seem like something cheap to insure could have the premiums bumped up because they're driven by higher risk drivers and/or involved in more insurance claims.


My daily driver is a Volvo XC60 which costs me about £250 a year fully comp (I'm 31 and live in a flat in the centre of Edinburgh).
I've just sold my second car and I'm currently deciding between two very different cars to replace it - a Renault Twingo or a Fiat Barchetta.
The Twingo being a small hatchback with a 1.2 litre engine you would expect to be nice and cheap, but it'll cost the same as the Volvo at around £250.
Meanwhile the Fiat is a left hand drive sports car with a 1.7 litre engine so you might expect it to be more expensive but, using exactly the same details, it'll actually be around £150.


Try looking at cars not typically driven by young people, as they tend to be considered higher risk and have higher premiums as a result.

The car I'm looking is Citroen C1 as it's one of the very few cars which are ULEZ compliant, has low fuel consumption (to be cheaper than train fares), and cheap enough to buy second hand.

 

[miklcct]

So look at something a bit different - the C1/108/Aygo are very popular with young drivers which means they are more likely to be involved in a bump.

Try looking at a Suzuki Alto, Nissan Pixo or Vauxhall Agila. Alternatively if you're looking at £1000-£2000 cars see what quotes you get on cars which "pensioners" like - Toyota Auris, lowest power version, Honda Jazz, Ford Fusion (which was basically a jacked up Fiesta), Vauxhall Meriva, Skoda Roomster. No, you won't be making a fashion statement, but you then have to decide what's more important - image or cost.

Do they have fuel consumption under 6 L / 100 km and ULEZ-compliant? If not they will not be competitive with train fares.

 

[Adam Williams]

These, in combination of the reduced job opportunities and the lack of facilities, I have already ruled out there as a place for me to live. Therefore, initially I only looked within the triangle bounded by Poole, London and Dover, and now after a year of complete dissatisfaction living in Bournemouth, I only look and budget within the triangle bounded by Hove, London and Dover

This is absolutely an opinion you're entitled to hold, but the vast majority of folks who quite happily live outside the "triangle bounded by Hove, London and Dover" and live happy, fulfilling lives and earn a reasonable wage are going to roll their eyes at these assertions.

Some of the figures mentioned in the OP have already been picked apart by other forum members, but I think the perspective expressed in the first post suggests a very short-sighted view on what it's really like to live outside of the south east.

Places like Warwickshire are actually pretty decent, for example, and my house even cost less than 400k! Do I like visiting London? Sure, and I can acknowledge it does have a lot to offer in terms of night-life, things to do, shopping etc.

Also, as a software engineer, I'm surprised you're concerned about the physical location of potential job opportunities when there are so many remote or mostly-remote opportunities.

 

[Ken H]

This is absolutely an opinion you're entitled to hold, but the vast majority of folks who quite happily live outside the "triangle bounded by Hove, London and Dover" and live happy, fulfilling lives and earn a reasonable wage are going to roll their eyes at these assertions.

Some of the figures mentioned in the OP have already been picked apart by other forum members, but I think the perspective expressed in the first post suggests a very short-sighted view on what it's really like to live outside of the south east.

Places like Warwickshire are actually pretty decent, for example, and my house even cost less than 400k!

Also, as a software engineer, I'm surprised you're concerned about the physical location of potential job opportunities when there are so many remote opportunities.

Houses in Barrow and Burnley for £30k. You can live cheaply and have a lower paid job. Many Many people do live in places like that and manage OK.

 

[telstarbox]

This is a strange approach. Living in Manchester would be a lot more fulfilling than living in Ashford for many educated young people. I think the OP might be on an elaborate wind up

 

[A0wen]

You sell more tickets because they are priced more competitively. The same way Tescos make more money by not selling bog roll at £20 each.

The difference is Tesco make a *profit* from selling bog roll. The rail network is making a *loss* from most passenger tickets.

So Tesco when promoting items are taking a hit on their margin in the hope it will increase overall profit. But they're still making a profit.

With the rail network making a loss, you'd be making a bigger loss unless it stimulated enough demand to offset that. Alternatively you could actually *increase* fares, because a 5% fare increase might only result in a drop in demand of 2% meaning the overall income is higher.

 

[ar10642]

The difference is Tesco make a *profit* from selling bog roll. The rail network is making a *loss* from most passenger tickets.

So Tesco when promoting items are taking a hit on their margin in the hope it will increase overall profit. But they're still making a profit.

With the rail network making a loss, you'd be making a bigger loss unless it stimulated enough demand to offset that. Alternatively you could actually *increase* fares, because a 5% fare increase might only result in a drop in demand of 2% meaning the overall income is higher.

If they increase fares any more I'll simply never use rail and I expect many feel the same.

This is absolutely an opinion you're entitled to hold, but the vast majority of folks who quite happily live outside the "triangle bounded by Hove, London and Dover" and live happy, fulfilling lives and earn a reasonable wage are going to roll their eyes at these assertions.

Some of the figures mentioned in the OP have already been picked apart by other forum members, but I think the perspective expressed in the first post suggests a very short-sighted view on what it's really like to live outside of the south east.

Places like Warwickshire are actually pretty decent, for example, and my house even cost less than 400k! Do I like visiting London? Sure, and I can acknowledge it does have a lot to offer in terms of night-life, things to do, shopping etc.

Are you from Warwickshire originally or did you leave a life you already had in the South East to go there?

Also, as a software engineer, I'm surprised you're concerned about the physical location of potential job opportunities when there are so many remote or mostly-remote opportunities.

 

[Mojo]

Before we can put a car on the road, we already need to pay insurance which, for the lowest-risk groups, already costs £700+ upwards per year.

Seems a bit much? I've just renewed my car insurance and it was a short bit over £300, and from that nearly £80 was for breakdown cover in which I paid for some extra enhancements, only got a couple of years no claims due to not having owned a vehicle for a few years before that.

And we need to spare a few hundred pounds for general maintenance as well, that's already £1000 p.a. before any depreciation.

Probably looking at about £120-ish p.a for an MoT and a service for your average car, plus of course any repairs.

And, don't forget, the biggest car expense apart from depreciation is the PARKING!!! A search at Stashbee reveals that the market price of a monthly parking is around £200 - £300 pcm, which is approximately £3000 p.a. So the total cost of car ownership is as high as £6000 p.a. - approximately £9000 of pre-tax salary at 20% income tax rate + 13.5% National Insurance rate. This is absolutely a luxury to most people.

I doubt many people pay £300 a month for parking, unless you are a regular commuter into a city centre.

 

[A0wen]

If they increase fares any more I'll simply never use rail and I expect many feel the same.

But that doesn't matter *if* the increase in revenue offsets the loss in users.

The evidence actually doesn't support you - fares have been going up since the 1980s but so has usage.

 

[ar10642]

But that doesn't matter *if* the increase in revenue offsets the loss in users.

The evidence actually doesn't support you - fares have been going up since the 1980s but so has usage.

Alright, charge £10,000 a ticket then. Loads more revenue according to your logic.

 

[A0wen]

Alright, charge £10,000 a ticket then. Loads more revenue according to your logic.

No. Not what I said. Try reading my posts rather than misrepresenting me..