Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[CN04NRJ]

I’d need to check what numbers Longstone had pre-pandemic but I suspect some of these are idle as a result of the loss of the 20 and 63 to First and then yes as well as the existing routes being converted (in most cases temporarily) to double deck. This must have freed up a number of single deckers. Again the overall number left may be lower but it’s probably worth a look.

To the best of my knowledge Longstone had 11-35, 132, and then 134-170 when the first lockdown started. That is 63 single deckers.

Factor in the loss of the 20 and 63 that takes it down probably to around 50 needed. The remaining routes allocated to Longstone at the time I’m pretty sure were the 2, 30, 36 and 38. Longstone also did a few booked peak runs with single decks on both their own routes and on routes allocated to other depots. These normally ended up on the 20 or back to depot.

The 2 is now at Central/Marine and is currently 50/50 split with singles and doubles. The 30 is down a few buses overall, not much though. Then both the 36 and 38 are still every 30 mins - they were every 20 mins pre Lockdown 1.

That’s not even mentioning Central or Marine - or even ECB/LC, who have all had pretty big changes to the single deck allocations.

So you can see why many of these 7900’s are idle. Many of those routes have changed.

The 2 will be fully operated by Marine from the 5th June seven days a week.

Ahh right, I got you now, cheers for clearing that up!

I guess that could potentially happen, maybe if the 09 plate Gemini 2's are withdrawn from Lothian Country the 10 plates from East Coast Buses could come over but that is purely speculative from my part.

What would replace those in turn? There's no spare DDs.

 

[Graham Alexand]

What would replace those in turn? There's no spare DDs.

If this was to happen, I'm guessing Lothian Buses would purchased new buses and some would cascade to East Coast Buses. However, this is purely speculative and I don't actively believe this will happen.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I’m only coming into the discussion mid way, what’s wrong with the 09 plate Geminis at LC?.

Why would there be any difference even if speculative that the 10 plates are any better off than the 09 plates, it makes little to no sense to do that.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I’m only coming into the discussion mid way, what’s wrong with the 09 plate Geminis at LC?.

Why would there be any difference even if speculative that the 10 plates are any better off than the 09 plates, it makes little to no sense to do that.

The 10 plates are Ex-Airlink so are of a higher specification plus they have bonded glazing rather than gasket glazing, but they're fairly irrelevant points when it comes to the idea being mentioned. It makes little sense to replace one group of vehicles with another group of essentially identical vehicles that are only a year newer.

 

[Graham Alexand]

I’m only coming into the discussion mid way, what’s wrong with the 09 plate Geminis at LC?.

Why would there be any difference even if speculative that the 10 plates are any better off than the 09 plates, it makes little to no sense to do that.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with them, if anything the 10 plates have had a lot more of an abuse life than the 09 plates due to them operating East Lothian. When 928 - 936 were allocated to the 275 for a little while, I found that they were one of the most powerful vehicles in the Lothian Country fleet.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with them, if anything the 10 plates have had a lot more of an abuse life than the 09 plates due to them operating East Lothian. When 928 - 936 were allocated to the 275 for a little while, I found that they were one of the most powerful vehicles in the Lothian Country fleet.

The 09 plates, these are ex-Lothian City service buses with the Voith gearboxes?

I’ve never driven any B9 I didn’t like.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The 09 plates, these are ex-Lothian City service buses with the Voith gearboxes?

I’ve never driven any B9 I didn’t like.

Yes. 926-936 prior to 2015 were all allocated to Longstone from new. From 2015 until 2017 they became Central vehicles branded for and used on the 29 (gaining orange tops). LC started in 2017 (at this point based at Central) and used 928-936 - these would later to move to Livingston in stages to join the rest of the operation which started up in 2018, I think these moved over in 2019 though. 926-927 lost the orange tops in 2017 as well and moved back to Longstone until the start of the first lockdown, they remain in swoops to this day.

 

[mb88]

926-936 were fantastic buses when they first moved across with the 43 from Central to LC but sadly they are starting to really show their age now and are becoming more and more unreliable. I personally think 571-8 should form the majority of the 43 allocation they’re far more suited to that route being limited to 42mph where they’re on slower roads the majority of the time as opposed to the quicker speeds required on sections of the X18/X27/X28. Also the 43 is by far the busiest Country route, surely it makes sense to put your newest vehicles on your most profitable route?

 

[CN04NRJ]

If this was to happen, I'm guessing Lothian Buses would purchased new buses and some would cascade to East Coast Buses. However, this is purely speculative and I don't actively believe this will happen.

I mean no offence but what is the point of purely speculative posts that you yourself don't think have any basis in reality?

They're already Euro 6 with manual ramps, maybe a repaint and reupholstering?

Perhaps 926/927 the same treatment once all the 300/500s have been repainted (I believe 1050 is the cover bus at Longstone though).

I think it's more likely than not that 1-10 will be the next vehicles to go.

 

[Graham Alexand]

I mean no offence but what is the point of purely speculative posts that you yourself don't think have any basis in reality?

They're already Euro 6 with manual ramps, maybe a repaint and reupholstering?

Perhaps 926/927 the same treatment once all the 300/500s have been repainted (I believe 1050 is the cover bus at Longstone though).

I think it's more likely than not that 1-10 will be the next vehicles to go.

Good point, I think I may have just thought about a unlikely possibility.

I'm guessing that 1 - 10 are Euro 5 vehicles?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

They're already Euro 6 with manual ramps, maybe a repaint and reupholstering?

Perhaps 926/927 the same treatment once all the 300/500s have been repainted (I believe 1050 is the cover bus at Longstone though).

Long term I think the 7900s are more likely than not to be replaced by DDs with Longstone being the only city garage requiring SDs.

I’d like to see every route that could run with doubles running with them - across the whole network that is (including subsidiaries). It’s possible that more routes in the future will, but all? Now that’s unlikely to happen. Ok I’ll admit not the 139 as that really is pointless - even if 591-594 regularly make appearances on it, but routes like the 36, 140 etc I’d like to see become doubles all the time.

The only daytime routes that need to be singles now that come to mind are the 30, 38, 106 and X7. I’m not as familiar as I’d like to be with West Lothian but I don’t think any routes in the current network require singles due to low bridges etc?


381 is currently away for repaint, 382 and 383 are currently being prepped and I don’t think 384 and 386 (which are the last two of that batch) will last much longer in swoops, possibly no later than the end of June (but could be sooner). Hopefully 553-566, 568-569 follow after that.

If there’s one batch that need a good refresh I’d suggest it’s (10)195-(10)199. Still going with the original interiors and could do with a paint too.

Even 441-465 are starting to look tired externally now as well, so hopefully they’ll be after the remaining ones in swoops.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Good point, I think I may have just thought about a unlikely possibility.

I'm guessing that 1 - 10 are Euro 5 vehicles?

The new exhausts I've spied on these suggests they are all now Euro6 in Livingston at least.

I've also seen a few of the B7 singles have a Euro6 plaque on the rear now.

 

[Graham Alexand]

The new exhausts I've spied on these suggests they are all now Euro6 in Livingston at least.

I've also seen a few of the B7 singles have a Euro6 plaque on the rear now.

I know 176 - 185 are and I think 186 - 190 are too.

 

[Siemens Trains]

926-936 were fantastic buses when they first moved across with the 43 from Central to LC but sadly they are starting to really show their age now and are becoming more and more unreliable. I personally think 571-8 should form the majority of the 43 allocation they’re far more suited to that route being limited to 42mph where they’re on slower roads the majority of the time as opposed to the quicker speeds required on sections of the X18/X27/X28. Also the 43 is by far the busiest Country route, surely it makes sense to put your newest vehicles on your most profitable route?

Certainly a common view that the more popular routes should benefit from investment in newer vehicles. But passengers have little choice along the 43 route so it's like shooting fish in a barrel. From a business perspective it could make more sense to use the newer or better-suited buses on routes where a good impression can help win passengers from other operators.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Certainly a common view that the more popular routes should benefit from investment in newer vehicles. But passengers have little choice along the 43 route so it's like shooting fish in a barrel. From a business perspective it could make more sense to use the newer or better-suited buses on routes where a good impression can help win passengers from other operators.

yet vehicle refurbishment can do the world of good even for mid life vehicles, much of the time a completely brand new vehicle isn't always the answer to increasing ridership.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Good point, I think I may have just thought about a unlikely possibility.

I'm guessing that 1 - 10 are Euro 5 vehicles?

1-10 have been upgraded to Euro 6, forgot that the terms of the funding means they have to stay for X number of years. Not sure what's happening with the newer 7900s that have been away for a long time, i've heard various things.

I’d like to see every route that could run with doubles running with them - across the whole network that is (including subsidiaries). It’s possible that more routes in the future will, but all? Now that’s unlikely to happen. Ok I’ll admit not the 139 as that really is pointless - even if 591-594 regularly make appearances on it, but routes like the 36, 140 etc I’d like to see become doubles all the time.

Everything out of Central could be DD, the 1 and 12 look busy enough lately to justify them though I haven't driven either for a while. Only really the 30/38 (low bridge) and then the 36 and 42 are the only routes i'd say are quiet enough to justify not using DDs anymore. We'll see in the next few months I guess in regards to SD/DD, enough said there!

 

[Busman757]

All vehicles in the Lothian Group are now Euro 6. As mb has already said the 09 plates in the LCB fleet are getting rather tired however there’s no reason why they should be replaced by vehicles that are only a year younger. On talking to the (I believe, past scheduler) for LCB the last time he was in the garage a few months ago, he was pressing for the B5 Hybrids 571-578 to be allocated to the 43 from the next service change. From a (now ex) drivers point of view, I preferred to have an ex London on the 43. The ZF gearbox on them made it smoother for breaking, especially for the bus stop going down the hill on The Loan, Queensferry (if you know, you know) than the Voith gearboxes in 928-936, however the engines in them are more powerful. The last time I did CPC, it was confirmed that LCB wouldn’t receive any brand new vehicles anytime soon, only cascades from the main LB fleet as and when it’s needed.

 

[Lothianbus703]

When we're the V reg batch of Dennis darts withdrawn and for how long was 151 in the training fleet?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

When we're the V reg batch of Dennis darts withdrawn and for how long was 151 in the training fleet?

Withdrawn in 2007/08. 151 didn’t last long in the training fleet, I believe one of 51-53 replaced it.

 

[mb88]

From a (now ex) drivers point of view, I preferred to have an ex London on the 43. The ZF gearbox on them made it smoother for breaking, especially for the bus stop going down the hill on The Loan, Queensferry (if you know, you know) than the Voith gearboxes in 928-936, however the engines in them are more powerful.

Totally agree with this. The 10xx are also that wee bit shorter which makes all the difference on parts of the route such as the tight corner at the bottom of The Loan and also turning into Burgess Road. The only downside to the hybrids going on the 43 would be trundling along the A89 at 42mph when you’re running light to the garage and wanting finished.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Totally agree with this. The 10xx are also that wee bit shorter which makes all the difference on parts of the route such as the tight corner at the bottom of The Loan and also turning into Burgess Road. The only downside to the hybrids going on the 43 would be trundling along the A89 at 42mph when you’re running light to the garage and wanting finished.

Strange they've got different limiters as 11-50 and 551-570 are limited to 47mph. I've not had one of the Longstone 67 plates on any fast roads yet.

 

[InOban]

The only daytime routes that need to be singles now that come to mind are the 30, 38, 106 and X7. I’m not as familiar as I’d like to be with West Lothian but I don’t think any routes in the current network require singles due to low bridges etc?

Excuse my ignorance, but I know that Newcraighall is single deckers because of its bridge, which is used by the 30 and the 106, but what brudge restricts the 38 and X7?

 

[eh1]

I think it's more likely than not that 1-10 will be the next vehicles to go.

Let's hope, they're not in a good way.

Everything out of Central could be DD, the 1 and 12 look busy enough lately to justify them though I haven't driven either for a while.

Both routes really vary, the 12s can be busy on weekends with the zoo - I believe it was all deckers yesterday and a tri axle made its way onto it the day before! The 1s seem to allocated more deckers at the moment so perhaps they're seeing how passenger numbers are on both to decide if feasible to run as decker routes.

 

[stevenedin]

Excuse my ignorance, but I know that Newcraighall is single deckers because of its bridge, which is used by the 30 and the 106, but what brudge restricts the 38 and X7?

For the 38 the bridge at Balgreen and the X7 I think a bridge at East Linton.

 

[InOban]

What height are Lothian's deckers? Both bridges are 4.2m

 

[90019]

What height are Lothian's deckers? Both bridges are 4.2m

Geminis are 4.4m, Enviros are 4.3m.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

What height are Lothian's deckers? Both bridges are 4.2m

Yes, it’s 4.3-4.4m for most (if not all) of Lothian’s double decks.

First did run double decks on their X6 (Edinburgh to Dunbar) for a while, I’m not sure how they got around this though. If the road was lower than it is now or if the double decks used were short enough or it bypassed East Linton completely?

The 38 prior to the pandemic had one double deck journey per day. It was a weekday only one way journey from Longstone to Royal Infirmary. It then went onto another route afterwords, if anyone remembers which one? I thought it was the 44.

 

[stevenedin]

Yes, it’s 4.3-4.4m for most (if not all) of Lothian’s double decks.

First did run double decks on their X6 (Edinburgh to Dunbar) for a while, I’m not sure how they got around this though. If the road was lower than it is now or if the double decks used were short enough or it bypassed East Linton completely?

The 38 prior to the pandemic had one double deck journey per day. It was a weekday only one way journey from Longstone to Royal Infirmary. It then went onto another route afterwords, if anyone remembers which one? I thought it was the 44.

First used Scania Omnidekkas on the X6 and 106 routes to Dunbar. I think that they were lower in height.

I remember seeing the odd double decker on the 38.

 

[InOban]

Thanks for the information.
If you look on Google maps you will see that there is an earlier bypass to East Linton which skirts the village avoiding the low bridge.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Yes, it’s 4.3-4.4m for most (if not all) of Lothian’s double decks.

First did run double decks on their X6 (Edinburgh to Dunbar) for a while, I’m not sure how they got around this though. If the road was lower than it is now or if the double decks used were short enough or it bypassed East Linton completely?

The 38 prior to the pandemic had one double deck journey per day. It was a weekday only one way journey from Longstone to Royal Infirmary. It then went onto another route afterwords, if anyone remembers which one? I thought it was the 44.

That extra still runs, occasionally see a decker on it but it returns to the garage after. Here's a pic of 925 on it back last year a few days before it was withdrawn.