Elizabeth line ticketing

[JonathanH]

Going no stops (get on, touch, get off) breaks the OSI.

Confuses the driver a fair bit though.

 

[MikeWh]

Confuses the driver a fair bit though.

You'd be surprised. Many of them have someone do it. I usually just say "just breaking a journey, mate" as I approach the pad so they don't close the door behind me.

 

[matt_world2004]

The latest ticketing revenue update for London underground staff briefly mentions that National rail staff tickets are valid on the Elizabeth line core. But does not go into too much detail about status passes

 

[Haywain]

But does not go into too much detail about status passes

If it had followed the RSTL page on the subject it would just create more confusion!

 

[Mikw]

Beware - there is an OSI between Woolwich EL and NR/DLR, which will mean your journey will be extended and hence the journey time will continue 'ticking' towards the maximum journey time.

The only surefire way to break the journey is to either take longer than the permissible time for the OSI (it's 20 minutes for most OSIs - see Oyster Rail for full details), or to touch out and back in at a barriered station.

The latter detail is important, as standalone readers at unbarriered stations can get confused if you touch out and back in in quick succession.

Thanks, so i might be better off getting off at Abbey Wood, assuming that's barriered.

If not, i could always get off at Woolwich and walk very slowly to Woolwich Arsenal.

Why does it have to be so hard?

 

[Haywain]

Why does it have to be so hard?

It’s designed to be very easy for normal passengers, not for enthusiasts who are very heavily outnumbered.

 

[JonathanH]

Why does it have to be so hard?

The Oyster / Contactless system is set up for 'normal' point to point journeys, not hanging around on the railway. It works really well for such normal journeys.

 

[Mikw]

The Oyster / Contactless system is set up for 'normal' point to point journeys, not hanging around on the railway. It works really well for such normal journeys.

And that's what i normally do, normal point to point.

But tomorrow is the opening of the one of the finest pieces of engineering in Europe - and something that (with the current state of the country might be the pinnacle of transport enginnering for some time), so i'd like to at least have a bit of a ride on a special day without being duffed up financially.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Interesting to see the XR flows active already, as well as a not-yet-active station available for purchase!

Brownie points to anyone who recognises this piece of infrastructure!

Not tried Reading Green Park yet though..

 

[swt_passenger]

I’d be astonished if that won’t open on the same day, as the door is already open (with a tiny barrier) and you can see the escalators. Are there any passageways we know will be closed anywhere in the open stations of the core?

Seems it wasn’t open according to a post in the main discussion.
Perhaps it opened later if someone notices, I guess they’ll mention it somewhere…

 

[JonathanH]

Brownie points to anyone who recognises this piece of infrastructure!

Dundas Aqueduct, some way away from Bond Street XR.

 

[TFN]

Seems it wasn’t open according to a post in the main discussion.
Perhaps it opened later if someone notices, I guess they’ll mention it somewhere…

Very much open when I passed by at 1030. Long corridor and priority seats available en route.

 

[swt_passenger]

Very much open when I passed by at 1030. Long corridor and priority seats available en route.

Probably just a feature of crowd management initially then. Thanks for letting us know.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Dundas Aqueduct, some way away from Bond Street XR.

Ding ding, we have a winner!
(Was on another ticket at the point, obviously not on XR metals)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Going no stops (get on, touch, get off) breaks the OSI.

Doesn't that mean you get charged an extra £1.50 for the (presumed) bus journey?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't that mean you get charged an extra £1.50 for the (presumed) bus journey?

Not if it's already hit the cap.

 

[swt_passenger]

Doesn't that mean you get charged an extra £1.50 for the (presumed) bus journey?

Yes but the idea is that your underground ramblings will cap anyway so it doesn’t matter.

 

[Mikw]

Well rode the line up and down twice, then got off a Woolwich, walked to woolwich Arsenal, tooks a city beam train to London Bridge and then the bus to Kings Cross - Capped at £8, so pretty happy with that. For some reason Oyster saw one trip down the line, and then the Citybeam back to london Bridge at "one journey", Not complaining obviously but i'm clueless how they work it out sometimes.

 

[MikeWh]

Well rode the line up and down twice, then got off a Woolwich, walked to woolwich Arsenal, tooks a city beam train to London Bridge and then the bus to Kings Cross - Capped at £8, so pretty happy with that. For some reason Oyster saw one trip down the line, and then the Citybeam back to london Bridge at "one journey", Not complaining obviously but i'm clueless how they work it out sometimes.

Woolwich EL to Woolwich Arsenal NR/DLR is an OSI so it joins the journeys together if you take less than 20 minutes between touch out and back in. You may have been lucky that the overall journey was within the 90 minutes allowed for a zone 1 journey.

 

[akm]

Doesn't that mean you get charged an extra £1.50 for the (presumed) bus journey?

£1.65 these days

 

[Mikw]

I can't explain why i got capped, but i did, and i'm happy with that.

 

[miklcct]

It seems that London Terminals tickets without a U-zone extra are no longer offered on the line from Kent to Liverpool Street. How can this be right?

 

[Watershed]

It seems that London Terminals tickets without a U-zone extra are no longer offered on the line from Kent to Liverpool Street. How can this be right?

No doubt something has been changed in the data to prevent such tickets being sold. After being highlighted here it had little chance of remaining in place!

Unfortunately TfL will continue to illegally overcharge people until they're stopped.

 

[hkstudent]

No doubt something has been changed in the data to prevent such tickets being sold. After being highlighted here it had little chance of remaining in place!

Unfortunately TfL will continue to illegally overcharge people until they're stopped.

Thing is, I doubt TfL can get any revenue from the London Terminal tickets for journeys from the southeast area to Liverpool Street or Blackfriars via Elizabeth Line in the current revenue share mechanism as it is not defined as one of the permitted routes. They are in the right not to offer that if they can get nothing.

Of course, that would require DfT and TfL to sit down to negotiate a revenue share on NR tickets in this situation. (For GA and GWR, it has well been discussed due to the takeover of the infrastructure. But I doubt that applies to SER / TL).

NB: Abbey Wood to St Pancras is charged a (+)Any Permitted fare for via EZL, while via Blackfriars would be a London Not Underground fare. I think this is more a legally challengable case (given that Elizabeth Line is not Underground), compare to the London Terminal designation problem.

 

[miklcct]

NB: Abbey Wood to St Pancras is charged a (+)Any Permitted fare for via EZL, while via Blackfriars would be a London Not Underground fare. I think this is more a legally challengable case (given that Elizabeth Line is not Underground)

I also see that some Not Underground fares, which were available on the initial days, are no longer offered for a journey via Elizabeth line and other National Rail services without using the Tube.

I have heard a rumour that such tickets will be changed to "via City Thameslink" instead.

 

[Watershed]

Thing is, I doubt TfL can get any revenue from the London Terminal tickets for journeys from the southeast area to Liverpool Street or Blackfriars via Elizabeth Line in the current revenue share mechanism as it is not defined as one of the permitted routes. They are in the right not to offer that if they can get nothing.

ORCATS distribution is determined completely separately from permitted routes. Revenue is distributed based on software which, by a journey planner of sorts, estimates the routes and services that customers are likely to have taken - taking into factors such as journey time, number of changes and the capacity of services. It's entirely possible that a TOC would receive revenue from a ticket which had no permitted routes involving their services.

There is also no formal definition anywhere in the NRCoT or Routeing Guide as to what London Terminals you may use. There is a London Terminals data feed which booking engines use when selling tickets, to indicate "London Terminals you can use". But as this file is not authoritative, and is not used for routeing purposes, it is entirely possible for a booking engine to offer a ticket to one particular London Terminal, despite saying that you can only use the ticket to certain other London Terminals!

Of course, that would require DfT and TfL to sit down to negotiate a revenue share on NR tickets in this situation. (For GA and GWR, it has well been discussed due to the takeover of the infrastructure. But I doubt that applies to SER / TL).

NB: Abbey Wood to St Pancras is charged a (+)Any Permitted fare for via EZL, while via Blackfriars would be a London Not Underground fare. I think this is more a legally challengable case (given that Elizabeth Line is not Underground), compare to the London Terminal designation problem.

Ultimately it's down to TfL's desire to extract the maximum revenue possible. That's all it boils down to.

A fare from Abbey Wood to London St Pancras costs the same as one to London Terminals, and as Crossrail is the shortest route the contractual validity is undeniable - but in practice I would expect you would face just the same sorts of issues using it to Liverpool Street. It also offer reduced flexibility in other respects (I wouldn't have said it could be used into Victoria, for example).

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

No doubt something has been changed in the data to prevent such tickets being sold. After being highlighted here it had little chance of remaining in place!

They should never have been sold according to the rules... I don't think the data has changed significantly, except for the definition of route 00998 - VIA UNDERGROUND/DLR - which now allows travel on the new section. It was just a bug fix on NRE. Everyone has had to do their own hacks, as the data cannot represent what RDG/TfL requirements are for the Elizabeth line .

 

[Watershed]

They should never have been sold according to the rules... I don't think the data has changed significantly, except for the definition of route 00998 - VIA UNDERGROUND/DLR - which now allows travel on the new section. It was just a bug fix on NRE. Everyone has had to do their own hacks, as the data cannot represent what RDG/TfL requirements are for the Elizabeth line .

I struggle to see how it shouldn't have been sold. Liverpool Street is a London Terminal. You can take a direct train there. Ergo it's valid.

 

[hkstudent]

ORCATS distribution is determined completely separately from permitted routes. Revenue is distributed based on software which, by a journey planner of sorts, estimates the routes and services that customers are likely to have taken - taking into factors such as journey time, number of changes and the capacity of services. It's entirely possible that a TOC would receive revenue from a ticket which had no permitted routes involving their services.

There is also no formal definition anywhere in the NRCoT or Routeing Guide as to what London Terminals you may use. There is a London Terminals data feed which booking engines use when selling tickets, to indicate "London Terminals you can use". But as this file is not authoritative, and is not used for routeing purposes, it is entirely possible for a booking engine to offer a ticket to one particular London Terminal, despite saying that you can only use the ticket to certain other London Terminals!


Ultimately it's down to TfL's desire to extract the maximum revenue possible. That's all it boils down to.

A fare from Abbey Wood to London St Pancras costs the same as one to London Terminals, and as Crossrail is the shortest route the contractual validity is undeniable - but in practice I would expect you would face just the same sorts of issues using it to Liverpool Street. It also offer reduced flexibility in other respects (I wouldn't have said it could be used into Victoria, for example).

If Elizabeth core is defined as LU for fare purposes, then I doubt ORCATS will allocate any fare revenue to that section.

 

[matt_world2004]

London terminals tickets from destinations east of Liverpool Street are valid between Stratford and Liverpool Street on the central line so should be valid on the Elizabeth line also.