Sundays - back to the traditional?

[Philip]

No-one is forcing you to go to the shops rather than worshipping whichever imaginary sky fairy you believe in. You need to accept that others have different beliefs - I thought they preached to you about tolerance when you went to worship?

Your reference to 'imaginary sky fairy' is hardly tolerant towards others' views in itself.

From a non-religious perspective, Sunday can still be a day for entertainment without the need to have so much retail open - why do people have to always go shopping? Surely we can manage one day of the week where only the essential shops open? I don't feel it particularly enriches people's lives. Why not promote the reopening of local cinemas, or encourage people to visit country parks, the funfair, the beach, or National Trust sites?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No-one is forcing you to go to the shops rather than worshipping whichever imaginary sky fairy you believe in. You need to accept that others have different beliefs - I thought they preached to you about tolerance when you went to worship?

Although this thread is specific to Sundays, that being the officially accepted Christian religion day of worship in this country that is ruled by a monarch who is Head of the Church of England, there is now a considerable number of Muslim people in this country and they seem to attend Mosque on their day of worship in great numbers. The Jewish faith has many adherents, both traditional and reform sections, who also keep Holy their own Sabbath day.

 

[nlogax]

Your reference to 'imaginary sky fairy' is hardly tolerant towards others' views in itself.

It's an opinion about religion. Free country, remember? The statement doesn't impinge upon anyone's rights to worship said sky fairy.

From a non-religious perspective, Sunday can still be a day for entertainment without the need to have so much retail open - why do people have to always go shopping?

Often because they're working all hours of the week.

Surely we can manage one day of the week where only the essential shops open? I don't feel it particularly enriches people's lives.

Maybe it doesn't enrich your life. Maybe it enriches the life of others.

Why not promote the reopening of local cinemas, or encourage people to visit country parks, the funfair, the beach, or National Trust sites?

Why Sunday, specifically? Why should it be the same for everyone?

 

[DarloRich]

A chance to 'slow down' for the day, this could help with productivity when people work during the week; help strengthen families; encourage more people to enjoy nature and exercise by going out for a walk, visiting parks etc.

You can do that already on a Sunday if you so wish. What you want is people to be "forced" to do that. It is silly and old fashioned.

Can't be very devout Christians if Primark being open keeps them away from mass

Exactly - why does God, if he exists, mind when you go to the silly house to pray and listen to a bloke in a dress prattle on? Can't you talk to God at any point? Is he only available at 10 am on a Sunday? is the word of God not available to you 24/7 via your bible?

We should not be encouraging religious observance in any way. Religion is the biggest scam ever committed on the human race.

Agreed. I would add money making before the word scam.

Your reference to 'imaginary sky fairy' is hardly tolerant towards others' views in itself.

It is perfectly tolerant. It is an opinion.

why do people have to always go shopping?

because they want to. It is thier choice just as it is your choice to go to church Sunday

 

[Philip]

It's an opinion about religion. Free country, remember? The statement doesn't impinge upon anyone's rights to worship said sky fairy.


Often because they're working all hours of the week.


Maybe it doesn't enrich your life. Maybe it enriches the life of others.


Why Sunday, specifically? Why should it be the same for everyone?

Well in my opinion I don't feel shopping is especially beneficial for people's well being - people may want to go shopping but it can often be stressful. The things I've listed above on the other hand I think are more beneficial for people's mental health.

You can do that already on a Sunday if you so wish. What you want is people to be "forced" to do that. It is silly and old fashioned.

Exactly - why does God, if he exists, mind when you go to the silly house to pray and listen to a bloke in a dress prattle on? Can't you talk to God at any point? Is he only available at 10 am on a Sunday? is the word of God not available to you 24/7 via your bible?


Agreed. I would add money making before the word scam.


It is perfectly tolerant. It is an opinion.


because they want to. It is thier choice just as it is your choice to go to church Sunday

One of the commandments is to 'keep the Sabbath day holy' and it is normally obligatory in the Catholic Church to attend Mass every Sunday (aside from the last 2 years because of the pandemic). Faith and worship shouldn't be restricted to Sunday no, but Sunday is still a day of celebration in the church and one which shouldn't be diminished.

 

[DarloRich]

Faith and worship shouldn't be restricted to Sunday no, but Sunday is still a day of celebration in the church and one which shouldn't be diminished.

In your view. My view is that I don't care what the church thinks or tells me and I am off to Asda.

 

[nlogax]

Well in my opinion I don't feel shopping is especially beneficial for people's well being - people may want to go shopping but it can often be stressful. The things I've listed above on the other hand I think are more beneficial for people's mental health.

People may want to go shopping to feed and clothe themselves and their families. That's a thing, I hear.

One of the commandments is to 'keep the Sabbath day holy' and it is normally obligatory in the Catholic Church to attend Mass every Sunday (aside from the last 2 years because of the pandemic). Faith and worship shouldn't be restricted to Sunday no, but Sunday is still a day of celebration in the church and one which shouldn't be diminished.

And that's fine. It doesn't have to be diminished for practising believers. They just happen to be a minority. Letting a minority belief dictate the lifestyles of an entire country is out of order and I'm pretty sure you'd agree with that.

 

[GusB]

I'm not suggesting people should be forced to observe religion but as a Christian country I don't think we should be looking to make Sunday more and more like a normal working day, not just from a religious point of view but because it used to be a day people could relax and it is becoming less and less like this.

I would disagree with the assertion that this is a Christian country.

In England and Wales:

Population estimates by ethnic group and religion, England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

Annual estimates of population by ethnic groups and religion by age and sex at the national and regional level for England and Wales. Publishing for the first time, as Experimental Statistics.

www.ons.gov.uk

3.Religion in England and Wales​

In 2019, an estimated 51.0% of the population reported their religion as Christian, making it the most prevalent religious group in England and Wales. However, numbers identifying as Christian have fallen by 8.3 percentage points since the 2011 Census (when 59.3% identified as Christian).

The next most common responses in 2019 were No religion (38.4%), Muslim (5.7%) and Hindu (1.7%). The No religion group (combined with Not stated) increased by just over 6.1 percentage points from 2011.

!
It is not possible to quantify how much of the change between 2019 survey estimates and 2011 Census population estimates reflect true change and how much is because of differences in data collection.

In Scotland:

Scotland's Census at a glance: Religion

See what the 2011 census told us about religion in Scotland.

www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk

Census recorded a rise in people with no religion between 2001 and 2011, while Church of Scotland numbers dropped.
Religion was an optional question. In 2011, 7% of people did not state their religion.

No religion
36.7% of people said they had no religion.
That’s an increase from 27.5% who said they had no religion in 2001.
39.4% of males and 34.1% of females said they had no religion.

Church of Scotland
The number of people identifying with the Church of Scotland dropped to 32.4%.
This was a decrease of 10 percentage points from 42.4% in 2001.

Other religions
Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and Sikhs all increased in number from 2001.
1.4% of people said they were Muslim. That’s an increase of 0.6 percentage points since 2001.
Buddhists, Hindus and Sikhs made up 0.7% of the population. Each of these also increased between 2001 and 2011.
The number of Jewish people declined slightly to just under 6,000.

It will be interesting to see how much these figures change once the data for the 2021 (2022 in Scotland) Census is released. I haven't got time to dig out the figures for Northern Ireland.

It is a slightly sensitive issue for me because I work in an industry which is rumoured to be threatening to make Sunday working compulsory - and I think this is wrong. We should not be heading towards a more secular society, rather we should be taking steps to return to our Christian routes; individuals should be left to make their own choice, but as a country we should be taking steps to promote worship rather than diminish it - and setting Sunday aside may help with

In your opinion we should not be heading towards a more secular society but I, and an increasing number of the population, disagree. As others have said, there's nothing to stop you sitting in quiet contemplation on a Sunday should you wish to do so. That is your right as a Christian and I will respect that. However, you absolutely do not have the right to force your will on me!

 

[Philip]

In your opinion we should not be heading towards a more secular society but I, and an increasing number of the population, disagree. As others have said, there's nothing to stop you sitting in quiet contemplation on a Sunday should you wish to do so. That is your right as a Christian and I will respect that. However, you absolutely do not have the right to force your will on me!

Many people are like sheep when it comes to secularization - they follow the 'popular' or 'fashionable' bandwagon of the time which is driven by poisonous media, without actually thinking for themselves much. I accept there are some people who genuinely have no beliefs and that is their free will and right and something that should be respected. But I feel we can be doing more to encourage the people on the secular bandwagon I've mentioned to come off it and instead start turning towards Faith - and encouraging Sunday worship will help with this.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm not suggesting people should be forced to observe religion but as a Christian country I don't think we should be looking to make Sunday more and more like a normal working day, not just from a religious point of view but because it used to be a day people could relax and it is becoming less and less like this.

Well for one, I'm not convinced we are a "Christian country" in anything but name at this point. We have some cultural associations with Christianity, obviously, but many of those are tenuous (how many people are actually celebrating the birth of Christ on Christmas Day?) or artefacts of history (the Head of State also being the Head of Church). Statistically the majority of British people have no religion or worship a faith other than Christianity. It might be the most popular of religions amongst those who do worship but it is not a popular pursuit in the population at large.

Again, as for relaxing, who are you to decide what people do or do not do to relax? Someone people enjoy shopping and find that relaxing, some people enjoy spending time with family, some people enjoy doing sport or going out with friends to the pub or restaurant. I enjoy actually going for walk on Sunday morning, having a roast in the afternoon and then reading, watching Netflix or playing video games on Sunday afternoon/evening. But what I enjoy should have no baring what someone else can or cannot do with their Sunday.

We should not be heading towards a more secular society, rather we should be taking steps to return to our Christian routes; individuals should be left to make their own choice, but as a country we should be taking steps to promote worship rather than diminish it - and setting Sunday aside may help with this.

Why should we be promoting religion on a state level? It's no business of the state whether you, I or anyone else are religious. I wouldn't want you to be prevented from worshiping in the manner of your choosing but equally you have no right to impinge on my ability to have nothing to do with organised religion. Plus once the state decides to encourage people to worship it will soon become harder for individuals to resist the insidiousness of that approach. But I guess that's what's really at play here. Christianity has lost the argument in the market place of ideas so the only chance now is to force the issue by trying to use the power of the state to enforce Christian dogma on those that have rejected it.

Also why should we return to worshiping God specifically? How is he any better than Allah? Or Odin? or Ra? Or any other god? Why does it need to be Christianity specifically? If people wish to explore their faith, worship a specific deity that is of course their right. I don't see that it is any business of mine, yours or the states to decide what religion their follow.

Well in my opinion I don't feel shopping is especially beneficial for people's well being - people may want to go shopping but it can often be stressful. The things I've listed above on the other hand I think are more beneficial for people's mental health.

I'm not sure why your opinion is more valid than anyone else's. Especially to the point that we should use the state to enforce what private individuals and business can do on Sundays. You might think that shopping is stressful (why the obsession with shopping?) but lots of people clearly enjoy it and I don't see why they should be prevented from enjoying that just because you'd prefer them to be in church.

One of the commandments is to 'keep the Sabbath day holy' and it is normally obligatory in the Catholic Church to attend Mass every Sunday (aside from the last 2 years because of the pandemic). Faith and worship shouldn't be restricted to Sunday no, but Sunday is still a day of celebration in the church and one which shouldn't be diminished.

And if someone was arguing that church worship should be banned on Sunday's I'd quite agree. But as no-one is proposing that you are still perfectly able to enjoy your religious worship on Sunday just as you always have. Just as I'm able to enjoy undertaking the activities I enjoy on Sunday (not shopping actually but that's by the by).

 

[nlogax]

Many people are like sheep when it comes to secularization - they follow the 'popular' or 'fashionable' bandwagon of the time which is driven by poisonous media, without actually thinking for themselves much. I accept there are some people who genuinely have no beliefs and that is their free will and right.

Oh good grief. Religion inspires more sheep than most things.

 

[deltic]

The OP might find the 1904 Mudie-Smith survey of religious attendance in London of interest. He complains about the poor attendance of church services, especially in the working class areas of the city. It was also of interest that children were clearly sent to church by their parents who didn't attend themselves and far more women than men attended. Only around 20% of the population attended church then.

In 1980 around 10% of the population attended church services which has fallen to about 5% now, I'm one of them!

​

 

[LowLevel]

Many people are like sheep when it comes to secularization - they follow the 'popular' or 'fashionable' bandwagon of the time which is driven by poisonous media, without actually thinking for themselves much. I accept there are some people who genuinely have no beliefs and that is their free will and right and something that should be respected. But I feel we can be doing more to encourage the people on the secular bandwagon I've mentioned to come off it and instead start turning towards Faith - and encouraging Sunday worship will help with this.

Royal we there. Religion should be allowed to exist and thrive - but definitely should not be encouraged. We don't want to go back to the concept of holy men saying "best do as we say or you'll burn in the fires of hell for all eternity", because that sounds awfully like coercion of the feeble minded.

 

[ainsworth74]

Many people are like sheep when it comes to secularization - they follow the 'popular' or 'fashionable' bandwagon of the time which is driven by poisonous media, without actually thinking for themselves much. I accept there are some people who genuinely have no beliefs and that is their free will and right and something that should be respected. But I feel we can be doing more to encourage the people on the secular bandwagon I've mentioned to come off it and instead start turning towards Faith - and encouraging Sunday worship will help with this.

And many people are like sheep when it comes to religion. Why are you and your beliefs more valid and proper than someone's who doesn't believe in God? Why are the none religious the ones who are on a "bandwagon" rather than you? You are certainly entitled to try and encourage more people to believe in your religion, plenty of people seem to try (does screaming at people on street corners actually work all that well?), but you have no right to expect anyone else to try and help you and certainly not the power of the state to help you force your specific beliefs onto people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure why your opinion is more valid than anyone else's. Especially to the point that we should use the state to enforce what private individuals and business can do on Sundays. You might think that shopping is stressful (why the obsession with shopping?) but lots of people clearly enjoy it and I don't see why they should be prevented from enjoying that just because you'd prefer them to be in church.

Well, quite. I don't go to church, and I hate shopping with a passion, but I have no problem wth anyone else engaging in either of those activities if they wish.

With regard to work and Sundays, there are plenty of jobs, the majority I suspect, where work is Monday-Friday 9am-5pm or thereabouts. If not working Sundays is important, it is a good idea to pursue one of those careers rather than one which doesn't follow that pattern. It's not like this changes particularly often.

Many people are like sheep when it comes to secularization - they follow the 'popular' or 'fashionable' bandwagon of the time which is driven by poisonous media, without actually thinking for themselves much. I accept there are some people who genuinely have no beliefs and that is their free will and right and something that should be respected. But I feel we can be doing more to encourage the people on the secular bandwagon I've mentioned to come off it and instead start turning towards Faith - and encouraging Sunday worship will help with this.

Who's "we"?

The Church? Fine, it can promote itself as it wishes (within advertising regulations etc), just like any other organisation can.

The Government? Absolutely not, it isn't their business.

 

[GusB]

Many people are like sheep when it comes to secularization religion - they follow the 'popular' or 'fashionable' bandwagon of the time which is driven by poisonous media missionaries and prophets, without actually thinking for themselves much.

Fixed that for you.

Now speaking about animals, I have a goat to sacrifice. Baaa

 

[lachlan]

Friday is a day of worship for Muslims. Shouldn't Fridays be a day of rest to allow Muslims to attend prayer?

The proportion of the population who are Christian has declined whereas the proportion of those with other religions has increased.

Clearly the fairest way is to not have any special "day of rest" and allow people to use their days off as they see fit. Hopefully the four day week becomes more widespread and people have more time off to spend as they wish.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Friday is a day of worship for Muslims. Shouldn't Fridays be a day of rest to allow Muslims to attend prayer?

The proportion of the population who are Christian has declined whereas the proportion of those with other religions has increased.

Clearly the fairest way is to not have any special "day of rest" and allow people to use their days off as they see fit. Hopefully the four day week becomes more widespread and people have more time off to spend as they wish.

An advantage of the four-day office week is that all three of the religious Sabbaths are days off if those days are Monday-Thursday.

Though interestingly countries which would consider themselves Muslim countries seem to be moving towards Western style Sat-Sun weekends.

 

[DarloRich]

Many people are like sheep when it comes to secularization - they follow the 'popular' or 'fashionable' bandwagon of the time which is driven by poisonous media, without actually thinking for themselves much. I accept there are some people who genuinely have no beliefs and that is their free will and right and something that should be respected. But I feel we can be doing more to encourage the people on the secular bandwagon I've mentioned to come off it and instead start turning towards Faith - and encouraging Sunday worship will help with this.

We get to the nub of the matter. The evangelicals zeal to force people to follow thier religion. This isn't a thread about Sundays. It is a thread about forcing people to be religious and to attend church.

No thanks. I am happy as a "sheep" on the "secular bandwagon".

 

[Mike99]

As another "church person" I agree with this approach.

I have used the shops on Sundays, and I sometimes go to the pub or use public transport on a Sunday, so it would be hypocritical and virtue signalling to say "..you shouldn't work on Sundays.." whilst quite happily expecting others to do so.

In any case, faith is about how you live your life 24 hours a day 7 days a week, not what you should or shouldn't do on on particular day of the week.

Having Sundays with shops and entertainment closed, and little if no public transport running, sounds almost like a mini lockdown, and we now know how bad that can be for people's mental health. I would not want the Lord's day to be associated with an increase in loneliness or mental health problems, so we should keep Sundays as they are and let people decide how to live their lives.

Having said that, work life balance is important, but it is up to each individual as to how they acheive that, recognising that not everyone has the choice. If attending a place of worship on a particular day of the week or spending Sunday at home with your family is important to you, you should choose a job that allows you to do that. (I know this is easier said than done for some people)

I've just clicked the 'imaginary' like button. I agree with all you say. I try my best to lead a good Christian life, my brother is a Minister, but I don't attend church (and that doesn't make me a lapsed Christian). I worked for many many years in the transport industry so rostered Sundays were just a normal working day both pre and post 1994.

 

[Philip]

To summarize, I don't have a problem with people going crazy shopping on Sunday, it is just my opinion that people may enjoy their day more by not doing this and spending their time doing other leisure activities, examples of which I have listed above.

Religion and faith is an important aspect of life in my opinion and more should be done to try and increase people's faith and that's why I'm suggesting people should have more time and opportunity to attend worship without the distraction of things like retail, it they want to. I appreciate the Muslim day of Observance is Friday, Jewish day is Saturday and there are increasing numbers of Muslims and Jewish believers in this country. However, Christianity is still the mainstream religion here and that's why I'm focusing on Sunday in this instance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Religion and faith is an important aspect of life in my opinion and more should be done to try and increase people's faith and that's why I'm suggesting people should have more time and opportunity to attend worship without the distraction of things like retail, it they want to.

If the existence of retail on a Sunday is enough of a distraction that you choose that instead of pursuing your faith, then your faith isn't very strong, is it?

Isn't it the Bible itself that says Christians should eschew temptation? Right back to the apple?

Muslims seem to manage to make Friday prayers despite everything being open on a Friday.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

No, simply interested to hear people's opinions.

Is that really the case?

This isn't a thread about Sundays. It is a thread about forcing people to be religious and to attend church.

A more honest answer?

 

[AlterEgo]

Many people are like sheep when it comes to secularization - they follow the 'popular' or 'fashionable' bandwagon of the time which is driven by poisonous media, without actually thinking for themselves much. I accept there are some people who genuinely have no beliefs and that is their free will and right and something that should be respected. But I feel we can be doing more to encourage the people on the secular bandwagon I've mentioned to come off it and instead start turning towards Faith - and encouraging Sunday worship will help with this.

Then your arguments are mere evangelism and I say no, thank you very much.

I think people would enjoy their Sundays more - and find them more fulfilling - if they were forced to go for a long walk by the seaside once a month but I’d never suggest organising society to force people towards it!

 

[Philip]

Is that really the case?

A more honest answer?

Yes, it is no skin off my nose at the end of the day and I am happy with my present Sunday arrangements. I am looking at this in terms of whether it will benefit the nation, both in terms of restoring the 'day of rest' aspect and in strengthening faith and religion, and reducing secularism.

 

[Busaholic]

It wasn't just almost all shops not opening on Sundays, any sporting fixture charging an admission fee was banned on that day, plus theatre and other live shows including music and dance. The John Player League on Sundays in cricket managed to get started in 1969, but only with the proviso that it didn't start before 2 p.m., which is why it became a 40 over per side competition.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Many people are like sheep when it comes to secularization - they follow the 'popular' or 'fashionable' bandwagon of the time which is driven by poisonous media, without actually thinking for themselves much. I accept there are some people who genuinely have no beliefs and that is their free will and right and something that should be respected. But I feel we can be doing more to encourage the people on the secular bandwagon I've mentioned to come off it and instead start turning towards Faith - and encouraging Sunday worship will help with this.

So being secular is a "bandwagon", but being religious isn't? Righto...
I'm sorry, but while you're trying to use the language of tolerance you're actually letting your own fears and prejudices show. Secularism is "a populist bandwagon driven by evil media" but then you make a platitude to the 'genuine' non-religious people.
If you've had a renewal of faith and it benefits you, great. But to then come to the conclusion that everyone else will benefit from the same thing is either very naive or very arrogant.

If you want to encourage people to join your religion, you're going to need better arguments than "not being religious is somehow bad in a vague and nebulous way because I don't like it".

 

[ainsworth74]

I am looking at this in terms of whether it will benefit the nation, both in terms of restoring the 'day of rest' aspect and in strengthening faith and religion, and reducing secularism.

But how does "strengthening faith and religion" whilst "reducing secularism" benefit the nation? In what way is my life going to be improved by going to church every Sunday?

 

[Philip]

But how does "strengthening faith and religion" whilst "reducing secularism" benefit the nation? In what way is my life going to be improved by going to church every Sunday?

Church music is more soothing to the ears than the hits being blasted out of the supermarket speakers...

 

[nlogax]

Church music is more soothing to the ears than the hits being blasted out of the supermarket speakers...

For you. For others it can sound like an asthmatic cat yowling for dinner. Can we please return to the idea of 'each to their own' and leave it at that?