Are the Euston - Blackpool (via Birmingham) services useless?

[David Goddard]

Is there some other way of bringing back the Crewe stop on the Glasgow fast services if the via Birmingham's don't return?

Doubt it, these services rely on being as close to 4h30 as they can, and additional calls south of Warrington (which can be picked up by other services) will extend these journeys somewhat.
Southbound, the Blackpool services follow the Glasgow fasts twenty minutes later from Preston to Warrington, where good connections can be made for Crewe, Stafford and the West Midlands. It is, unfortunately, not so good on the Northbound, with the West Midlands services typically reaching Warrington thirteen minutes after the fast train to Glasgow. Expect that moving the West Midlands service forward by twenty minutes would probably cause issues elsewhere, but that would solve the connectiona problem here.

 

[30907]

There are reserved paths for the Glasgow services, but they will not be running in Dec 22.

The document posted here interestingly suggests otherwise.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/december-2022-timetable-changes.231835/page-7#post-5702664
Restoring alternate Glasgows might be a first step?

 

[Some guy]

The document posted here interestingly suggests otherwise.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/december-2022-timetable-changes.231835/page-7#post-5702664
Restoring alternate Glasgows might be a first step?

I doubt it as they’d mention the reintroduction of the Glasgow services. Also it says on that it will take 1hour 16 minutes Euston to Birmingham meaning the Birmingham Scotland services will arrive into Birmingham at at xx:56 now instead of xx:07 so the departure time will be different and it might have a different path going up to Scotland

 

[Peter0124]

Doubt it, these services rely on being as close to 4h30 as they can, and additional calls south of Warrington (which can be picked up by other services) will extend these journeys somewhat.
Southbound, the Blackpool services follow the Glasgow fasts twenty minutes later from Preston to Warrington, where good connections can be made for Crewe, Stafford and the West Midlands. It is, unfortunately, not so good on the Northbound, with the West Midlands services typically reaching Warrington thirteen minutes after the fast train to Glasgow. Expect that moving the West Midlands service forward by twenty minutes would probably cause issues elsewhere, but that would solve the connectiona problem here.

The Northbound connection isn't great however, with the xx:09 from Crewe to Preston arriving at xx:53. Meaning a 48 minute wait for the next Glasgow service unless you use the xx:04 per two hours Transpennine service which so far this week have been getting cancelled quite a few times.

 

[JonathanH]

Also it says on that it will take 1hour 16 minutes Euston to Birmingham meaning the Birmingham Scotland services will arrive into Birmingham at at xx:56 now instead of xx:07 so the departure time will be different and it might have a different path going up to Scotland

I didn't think the presentation gave a departure time from Euston. It won't necessarily be xx40 as your posting is implying just because that is the current time.

 

[David Goddard]

Overall looks pretty positive in terms of the changes proposed. Stafford particularly appears to benefit.
Interesting how the 3ph to Birmingham is recast to create two express as core, with the third picking up the intermediate calls. Am actually suprised in a way that they havent proposed the same with the Manchesters (ie take two non stop to Stoke, then Macclesfield, Stockport and Piccadilly, with the third one via Crewe picking up Milton Keynes etc)
Be interesting to watch how well it beds in and whether there will be further tweaks in another year.

 

[30907]

Overall looks pretty positive in terms of the changes proposed. Stafford particularly appears to benefit.
Interesting how the 3ph to Birmingham is recast to create two express as core, with the third picking up the intermediate calls. Am actually suprised in a way that they havent proposed the same with the Manchesters (ie take two non stop to Stoke, then Macclesfield, Stockport and Piccadilly, with the third one via Crewe picking up Milton Keynes etc)

Think the change is partly the opportunities offered by the new stock PLUS wanting to simplify the Coventry corridor.

I didn't think the presentation gave a departure time from Euston. It won't necessarily be xx40 as your posting is implying just because that is the current time.

××50 off Euston would fit neatly at BHM (but have problems with the LNW services further south)..

 

[BeijingDave]

The market for Blackpool comes primarily from the North West, not London and the Midlands. That is why Northern run a half hourly service to Manchester with (mainly) double 331s.

And, strangely in the summer, Glasgow. Lots of Glaswegians holiday in Blackpool. Might be better to operate Glasgow-Blackpool services picking up at Motherwell and Carlisle too, with a reversal at Preston.

A lot of people in the north west tend to prefer the slightly more genteel North Wales.

 

[Some guy]

The Northbound connection isn't great however, with the xx:09 from Crewe to Preston arriving at xx:53. Meaning a 48 minute wait for the next Glasgow service unless you use the xx:04 per two hours Transpennine service which so far this week have been getting cancelled quite a few times.

The Glasgow TPE services seem to be prioritised more due to the depot being there so some can run. Also Crewe shouldn’t be given another London service it’s already got enough so they should make it set down and pick up only if they do

And, strangely in the summer, Glasgow. Lots of Glaswegians holiday in Blackpool. Might be better to operate Glasgow-Blackpool services picking up at Motherwell and Carlisle too, with a reversal at Preston.

A lot of people in the north west tend to prefer the slightly more genteel North Wales.

That would be a clever service but it would be unreliable due to switching ends at Preston. Plus there’s already 4 per hour to Blackpool and 5 in some hours

 

[jfollows]

That would be a clever service but it would be unreliable due to switching ends at Preston. Plus there’s already 4 per hour to Blackpool and 5 in some hours

Yes, it's even before my time when it was possible to do the journey without reversing, although I have done Morecambe-Glasgow behind a class 40 after electrification.

 

[Falcon1200]

Is there some other way of bringing back the Crewe stop on the Glasgow fast services if the via Birmingham's don't return?

Yes, in alternate hours stop at Crewe instead of Warrington Bank Quay (which would still get three Avanti expresses every two hours).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, in alternate hours stop at Crewe instead of Warrington Bank Quay (which would still get three Avanti expresses every two hours).

Is it that important? If I was going from MKC to Glasgow I'd probably go via Manchester, and people going from Brum could do the same.

(Yes, TPE is a mess at the moment, but it won't be forever, and you don't make these decisions based on a short-term industrial dispute).

I do however think it would have been better if the recast had included putting a Crewe stop in these.

That would be a clever service but it would be unreliable due to switching ends at Preston. Plus there’s already 4 per hour to Blackpool and 5 in some hours

Blackpool has very close to a metro frequency service from Preston. There's no need for any long distance services to be going there, other than in this sort of case where it's just using it as a reversing siding to get out of the way at Preston. It's a very easy change, and now Northern are using long EMUs it's got plenty of capacity. It's otherwise all a bit like suggesting running Euston-Liverpools through to Southport.

 

[Falcon1200]

Is it that important? If I was going from MKC to Glasgow I'd probably go via Manchester, and people going from Brum could do the same.

I have travelled between Birmingham and Glasgow via Manchester but it is slower than via Crewe, and the Manchester/Glasgow service (when it runs) is 5 cars only and already busy enough with Manchester traffic. For there to be barely any through trains between two of the UK's largest cities, which are on the same, fast, electrified route is IMHO an absolute disgrace, but providing a slightly better service by changing at Crewe would be a start in rectifying that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have travelled between Birmingham and Glasgow via Manchester but it is slower than via Crewe, and the Manchester/Glasgow service (when it runs) is 5 cars only and already busy enough with Manchester traffic. For there to be barely any through trains between two of the UK's largest cities, which are on the same, fast, electrified route is IMHO an absolute disgrace, but providing a slightly better service by changing at Crewe would be a start in rectifying that.

The connections are currently a bit messy overall, but it appears that, roughly, you have a reasonable service changing at Preston/Lancaster/Carlisle (take your pick) at even:15 onto the TPE, the connection is 15 minutes.

I think I would lean towards reinstating it, that said.

 

[Peter0124]

Is it that important? If I was going from MKC to Glasgow I'd probably go via Manchester, and people going from Brum could do the same.

(Yes, TPE is a mess at the moment, but it won't be forever, and you don't make these decisions based on a short-term industrial dispute).

I do however think it would have been better if the recast had included putting a Crewe stop in these.

Is a off peak rtn between Glasgow and Birmingham valid via Manchester?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Of course they are. But the requirement to provide Preston via Birmingham simply means they may as well go to Blackpool in what would otherwise be something stupid like a 1h40 turnaround at Preston.

It’s a Covid hangover mess.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is a off peak rtn between Glasgow and Birmingham valid via Manchester?

Yes. Someone will no doubt post a counterexample, but generally WCML tickets to stations on the mainline are valid via Brum/Trent Valley and Warrington/Manchester. A bit like with Northampton, those minor deviations are sort of just seen as fast/slow lines.

Of course they are. But the requirement to provide Preston via Birmingham simply means they may as well go to Blackpool in what would otherwise be something stupid like a 1h40 turnaround at Preston.

It’s a Covid hangover mess.

Presumably if this was permanent you could rediagram to make that 40 minutes instead.

 

[jfollows]

Is a off peak rtn between Glasgow and Birmingham valid via Manchester?

Yes
Map BE from the routeing guide (https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps):

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Yes. Someone will no doubt post a counterexample, but generally WCML tickets to stations on the mainline are valid via Brum/Trent Valley and Warrington/Manchester. A bit like with Northampton, those minor deviations are sort of just seen as fast/slow lines.



Presumably if this was permanent you could rediagram to make that 40 minutes instead.

To then have something sat at Glasgow for almost 2 hours…

 

[BeijingDave]

It's otherwise all a bit like suggesting running Euston-Liverpools through to Southport.

From an operational perspective maybe, but perhaps not from a business perspective.

As pointed out, you get a lot of Glaswegians going to Blackpool. A direct service would probably increase the numbers. You don't meet a lot of Londoners who holiday in Southport, when you have Bognor, Brighton and Eastbourne, to name but three seaside locations Londoners are much more likely to visit.

Yes, in alternate hours stop at Crewe instead of Warrington Bank Quay (which would still get three Avanti expresses every two hours).

Also often overlooked from a business perspective, Warrington is actually now a very big town (200,000 people, bigger than many provincial cities) with a relatively strong and diversified economy (with a lot of tech firms), that probably needs links to major cities much more than Crewe does.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also often overlooked from a business perspective, Warrington is actually now a very big town (200,000 people, bigger than many provincial cities) with a relatively strong and diversified economy (with a lot of tech firms), that probably needs links to major cities much more than Crewe does.

Crewe is a major interchange and parkway station. The town is basically utterly irrelevant - it is not very big and quite poor, so long distance rail travel won't be a majority pursuit. It might as well be in the middle of a field (backed up by the old Basford Hall proposal) - indeed, it was, and the town exists because of the railway.

 

[BeijingDave]

Crewe is a major interchange and parkway station. The town is basically utterly irrelevant - it is not very big and quite poor, so long distance rail travel won't be a majority pursuit. It might as well be in the middle of a field (backed up by the old Basford Hall proposal) - indeed, it was, and the town exists because of the railway.

I hear you, but people for some reason see changing trains as a major hassle.

Warrington's links to London and Birmingham really don't need downgrading. They should be as good as anywhere on the West Coast Mainline main trunk.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I hear you, but people for some reason see changing trains as a major hassle.

But, in the context of this thread, nobody really benefits from the need to change introduced by Avanti running services to Blackpool instead of up the northern WCML.

All it does is introduce up to 40 minute waits at Preston, and removes connectivity in favour of a place that already has 4tph to connect to the WCML.

 

[JonathanH]

But, in the context of this thread, nobody really benefits from the need to change introduced by Avanti running services to Blackpool instead of up the northern WCML

Given the choice of Blackpool or Lancaster (and reversal in Carnforth Loop) there isn't much difference really.

 

[MalaiseForever]

Crewe is a major interchange and parkway station. The town is basically utterly irrelevant - it is not very big and quite poor, so long distance rail travel won't be a majority pursuit. It might as well be in the middle of a field (backed up by the old Basford Hall proposal) - indeed, it was, and the town exists because of the railway.

This is very inaccurate, how can a town of over 100,000 be utterly irrelevant? Come off it.

the station is a 15 minute walk from the town centre and is frequently served by buses.

 

[Falcon1200]

Warrington's links to London and Birmingham really don't need downgrading. They should be as good as anywhere on the West Coast Mainline main trunk.

No town's links should be downgraded, but at present Warrington (population 100000) has a far better rail service to Birmingham than Glasgow (population several million), ie an hourly service throughout the day as opposed to practically nothing !

 

[BeijingDave]

No town's links should be downgraded, but at present Warrington (population 100000) has a far better rail service to Birmingham than Glasgow (population several million), ie an hourly service throughout the day as opposed to practically nothing !

Warrington's population is now over 200,000. Double what you, and many others, seem to assume!

Facts and figures for Warrington | warrington.gov.uk

www.warrington.gov.uk

 

[Agent_Squash]

Given the choice of Blackpool or Lancaster (and reversal in Carnforth Loop) there isn't much difference really.

There's also the option of sending them back up to Glasgow like they were originally... and even then, 1tph extra on Lancaster would be more beneficial than a fifth train to Blackpool.

 

[Some guy]

There's also the option of sending them back up to Glasgow like they were originally... and even then, 1tph extra on Lancaster would be more beneficial than a fifth train to Blackpool.

If I’m correct though going southbound a lot of the Glasgow-Birmingham-Euston services didn’t stop at Lancaster they were normally express from Penrith or oxenholme to Preston so it would be roughly the same from Lancaster to Preston southbound

 

[jfollows]

If I’m correct though going southbound a lot of the Glasgow-Birmingham-Euston services didn’t stop at Lancaster they were normally express from Penrith or oxenholme to Preston so it would be roughly the same from Lancaster to Preston southbound

I hadn't noticed that, from the December 2019 timetable:
9M53 10:00 Glasgow-Euston was Penrith then Preston
9M55 12:00 Glasgow-Euston was Carlisle then Lancaster
9M84 14:00 Glasgow-Euston was Oxenholme then Preston
9M59 16:00 Glasgow-Euston was Oxenholme then Preston