Rail strikes discussion

[Wolfie]

The irony was lost on you.

The wonderful nationalised railway the RMT campaigned for, did this 7 years ago.

Now we repeat the same process, but this time the strike over 'job security' appears to come before the probably inevitable closure proposals.

As a regular user of the tube l have to tell you that the closure of most ticket offices caused a number of serious problems many of which persist to this day. Given the mainline system is significantly more complex l am confident that your desired outcome will have similar or worse consequences.

 

[TheEdge]

The practice seems to vary as you seem to be saying there isn't a separate booking on time allowed and others quote that as being its own allowance.

They gave a detailed breakdown (unless you have found a shortened version) of how the number of minutes was arrived at during the relocation.

Because the DM is muddying the water.

Without actually knowing the facts about New Street, no doubt an issue Guy Adams doesn't care about, I can't 100% be sure of what times he's quoting. Walking time is included in booking on time but will be considerably shorter than booking on time as it is literally the time to walk to the messroom. An educated guess, he's quoting booking on time rather than walking time.

The article also implies we get extra time on top of our breaks to walk, we don't, our breaks our timed to include that time. So at my TOC a break will be a minimum of 25m (the actual break itself) plus the walking time either side, not on top of it. So if my "break" ends at 0930 I don't then get another, lets say, 5 minutes to walk, it will have been timed for me to be leaving the messroom at 0925, and have left myself time to set up the unit.

It also presents St Pancras as if the evil Southeastern union is somehow ripping off everyone even more by having longer walking times than East Mids at the same station. That'll be because EMRs messroom will be closer to their platforms and South Eastern will be further away rather than some union stealing your money.

As to the calculation of minutes, yes, it has to be doable for all staff expected to do that. I have 24m to walk from my sign on point to the local depot and find my train, if I'm picking a train up from there. I can do that walk much faster than that, but then I'm young, fit and run half marathons for fun, so for me they could time in down to 12-14m. But others will take much closer to that time depending on age and fitness.

 

[jayah]

I’ve read the article and don’t recognise anything in there that couldn’t be classed as a pack of lies. Maybe it happened one day but it just doesn’t anymore.

Progress.

My favourite part was that if there is a huge track maintenance type failure at Kings Cross, the staff at Euston a few hundred yards away don't get involved.

So is that true, false, you don't know or something a politician says they don't recognise?

And if it really is rubbish, your union needs to start rebutting this stuff because millions of other people are reading it too!

As a regular user of the tube l have to tell you that the closure of most ticket offices caused a number of serious problems many of which persist to this day. Given the mainline system is significantly more complex l am confident that your desired outcome will have similar or worse consequences.

As a user of the tube, my personal experience is that the lack of ticket offices poses zero problems, on the other hand endless RMT industrial action to point nobody in London even knows or cares why they are striking any more, causes enormous problems.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Progress.

My favourite part was that if there is a huge track maintenance type failure at Kings Cross, the staff at Euston a few hundred yards away don't get involved.

And what is wrong with that? Its a different station that is almost a quarter of an hour away. I'd also expect they wouldn't have been trained or be knowledgeable about the other station and the routes. As an analogy, I wouldn't expect someone who works in Sainsburies Green Park in Bath to get involved if there's an issue at Sainsburies local Southgate Bath for example. And if they did get involved, but something went wrong at their original place of work too, I'm sure you'd soon be complaining they aren't where they were supposed to be!!

 

[choochoochoo]

Progress.

My favourite part was that if there is a huge track maintenance type failure at Kings Cross, the staff at Euston a few hundred yards away don't get involved.

So is that true, false, you don't know or something a politician says they don't recognise?

And if it really is rubbish, your union needs to start rebutting this stuff because millions of other people are reading it too!


As a user of the tube, my personal experience is that the lack of ticket offices poses zero problems, on the other hand endless RMT industrial action to point nobody in London even knows or cares why they are striking any more, causes enormous problems.

I'm not p-way but I'd suspect that some infrastructure could be route specific. Especially Signalling and Telecoms.

Kings Cross has just gone all digital so maybe the crew at Euston could not help out if things went wrong at kings cross.

 

[jayah]

And what is wrong with that? Its a different station that is almost a quarter of an hour away. I wouldn't expect someone who works in Sainsburies Green Park in Bath to get involved if there's an issue at Sainsburies local Southgate Bath for example.

Aside from another debate about walking time, you really don't see a problem there?

All trains stopped at Kings Cross, and at Euston the track staff do nothing?

I haven't worked in Sainsburys but I suspect you are well wide of the mark there.

 

[TheEdge]

My favourite part was that if there is a huge track maintenance type failure at Kings Cross, the staff at Euston a few hundred yards away don't get involved.

My partner has a Mac, I have a PC. They are both home computers, they both do the same thing. But I struggle use hers properly because I don't know the nuances and can't master the different way the trackpad works.

Euston and Kings Cross may both look similar but if they are both using different point machines, signaling equipment, OHL designs and differing processes then using staff who don't know the precise nuance of the system will just hinder those who do.

 

[O L Leigh]

Lets get this straight. Walking times, etc, are not there for the benefit of work-shy militant rail workers. They are a tool for train planning to ensure that there is adequate time within the job to make sure everything gets done so that the trains can run on time. As well as walking time and time for booking on, there are taxi times and times for static duties.

While it is sometimes possible to complete all diagrammed tasks in less time than is allowed, it is not always the case. Taxis can get caught up in heavy traffic and take longer than booked, problems getting through gatelines can delay staff reaching trains, and static duties can take longer than they ought due to technical issues with rolling stock or problems with passengers. So naturally a margin gets built in to allow for this. This is about how long a task ought to take rather than how long it can actually take. Of course you could make this a target for productivity by trimming all of this back, but the upshot of doing so would be delay to services.

 

[jayah]

I'm not p-way but I'd suspect that some infrastructure could be route specific. Especially Signalling and Telecoms.

Kings Cross has just gone all digital so maybe the crew at Euston could not help out if things went wrong at kings cross.

Still not clear whether this is a practical blocker, something that should be addressed through upskilling, something that actually happens or the DM sources talking nonsense, although others have made their personal views very clear.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

As for closing ticket offices, I assume those suggesting or supporting that haven't actually travelled by rail in a while? Especially at large stations (e.g. Bristol Temple Meads as that's what I'm familiar with). Ticket offices at those kind of stations are very heavily used.

Indeed passed through Redhill the other morning which has four ticket machines yet the queue was out the door for the ticket office window (the other two were shut). Perhaps if they really simplify tickets like TfL has done passengers may use the machines regularly.

Also at my nearest station the expensively refurbished waiting room and toilet is only open when the ticket office is open which is only four hours a day now so that will be just left locked up no doubt once ticket office shuts.

Reality is ticket offices staff are just an easy target to make short term savings by a desperate DfT. TOCs new how to generate revenue so if they didn't want ticket offices they would have gone long ago.

 

[Thermal]

I don't understand the walking time complaint. It's a necessity to effective planning. The longest walking time i've experienced was 8 minutes at Manchester Piccadilly which covered getting from platform 13/14, up and over the waiting bridge, all the way through the main station, through the gateline, through the concourse, out of the main entrance and around the back of an office block to the side of the station, then waiting for a lift or climbing up 8 sets of stairs to the kitchen and toilet facilities for a break. Between 7 - 8 minutes is about right for this depending on how busy it is and how long the lift takes, as long as you don't get stopped for advice by passengers etc.

Many breaks are 20 minutes long. Without walking time, 8 minutes there and back would leave me 4 minutes for the break, within which I have to use the toilet, prepare and eat food, clean up and take a rest before starting work again.

The walking time allows for diagrams to be planned efficiently, making sure that staff are back where they need to be on time, not causing delays to the rest of the network because they spent 2 munities on the toilet and 3 minutes eating when their diagram only allowed for a 1 minute toilet trip. At smaller locations, walking time is usually 3 minutes to move between the break facilities and any platform. Again, this seems reasonable to me.

If you remove the walking time, how do planners know how much time to assign to staff to ensure they can actually reach the required location on time?

 

[43066]

The practice of using a spare to cover your work seems a sensible way of doing it. Although being pedantic , it is then not exactly, by definition, random as it depends on spares being available.

Tends to be spares and standbys. The only time I’ve been properly randomed, I was spare. I’ve also been told I my urine sample was being randomly tested at a medical, but no breathalyser.

As for closing ticket offices, I assume those suggesting or supporting that haven't actually travelled by rail in a while? Especially at large stations (e.g. Bristol Temple Meads as that's what I'm familiar with). Ticket offices at those kind of stations are very heavily used.

I think we need to be somewhat realistic about this. Ticket offices in the traditional sense are dying. The unions need to focus on not having compulsory redundancies.

Aside from another debate about walking time, you really don't see a problem there?

It’s been explained, you’ve ignored it.

All trains stopped at Kings Cross, and at Euston the track staff do nothing?

Which track staff are based at Euston? Is there an NR depot there?

I’m a train driver based not so far from Euston. If disruption happened there I would do nothing. I’ve never turned a wheel on the route and don’t sign it, but the Mail would only report the first bit…

I haven't worked in Sainsburys but I suspect you are well wide of the mark there.

For the fourth time. What do you do for a living, please?

 

[jayah]

Indeed passed through Redhill the other morning which has four ticket machines yet the queue was out the door for the ticket office window (the other two were shut). Perhaps if they really simplify tickets like TfL has done passengers may use the machines regularly.

Also at my nearest station the expensively refurbished waiting room and toilet is only open when the ticket office is open which is only four hours a day now so that will be just left locked up no doubt once ticket office shuts.

Reality is ticket offices staff are just an easy target to make short term savings by a desperate DfT. TOCs new how to generate revenue so if they didn't want ticket offices they would have gone long ago.

If the ticket office isn't selling tickets then it is a very expensive waiting room. At the margins (not Redhill in the rush hour) the usage being quoted is incredibly low, perhaps because unlike on LUL, the world has changed a lot and the agreements haven't.

 

[O L Leigh]

The forum team are aware that the subject of industrial action is a highly passionate topic. As such, in this thread only, we are now trialling allowing free debate on this subject.

And you lot wonder why railstaff feel besieged on this forum...? This is not "free debate". It's just 60+ pages of willy-waving.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I think we need to be somewhat realistic about this. Ticket offices in the traditional sense are dying.

You totally ignored what I said. In many places they aren't dying. They are absolutely essential. Sure not everywhere, but to propose closing all ticket offices (like the Times article mentioned a page or two ago said) is absolutely bonkers and shows how out of touch with passengers the government is.

 

[TheEdge]

And you lot wonder why railstaff feel besieged on this forum...?

It's as if one of the main admins doesn't like railstaff.

Oh.

 

[O L Leigh]

If the ticket office isn't selling tickets then it is a very expensive waiting room. At the margins (not Redhill in the rush hour) the usage being quoted is incredibly low, perhaps because unlike on LUL, the world has changed a lot and the agreements haven't.

Cue lots of complaints about how station waiting rooms and toilets are now routinely closed.

Besides, it's got nothing to do with agreements. It's to do with security of the premises and the people using it; ergo the public.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Nah. Hardly. I don't even live in the UK (been gone for 30 years) and as I type this I'm sat in my house in Dallas, TX (I'm sure the forum Admins can confirm my IP address). I am, however, a nerd when it comes to industrial relations and tech - hence my questions.

Dalton, GA here. Gone for 22 years. I am here because this forum is a fantastic resource for railway info and I still love the railways.

 

[43066]

And you lot wonder why railstaff feel besieged on this forum...?

I can see why they’ve done this. They can’t not allow it to be discussed, and having it in one place is easier than lots of other threads having to be shut down.

You totally ignored what I said. In many places they aren't dying. They are absolutely essential.

No, I responded to what you wrote (at least I thought I did)!

They are increasingly irrelevant. I live in zone 3, my local ticket office barely does a thing because 90% use contactless or oyster. I use ticket offices as a priv ticket buyer. Based on the transactions I’ve overheard, I’m usually the only person in the queue who couldn’t just have used a TVM.

 

[dk1]

If you remove the walking time, how do planners know how much time to assign to staff to ensure they can actually reach the required location on time?

I’m scratching my head on that one too. This whole thread has become rather ridiculous over some obscure article in daily newspaper & we all know how accurate the media are on such topics. Oh well.

 

[jayah]

And you lot wonder why railstaff feel besieged on this forum...?

Some of them need to find a more constructive way to address criticism, where some of their practices will appear to non-rail staff as appearing to belong in a parody of Carry on at your Convenience with the hot water tap fitter, the cold water tap fitter, and the inevitable strike.

Their union could help as well by ditching the class struggle rhetoric and hitting the TV studios to make the case for why their members and industry is worth the enormous taxpayer support received and the enormous collateral damage the UK is taking on their behalf next week.

 

[CFRAIL]

What value do you place on the advice that ticket office colleagues provide? Doris may use the train once per week to visit Ethal and enjoys that conversation with Michael in the ticket office because she has very little interaction with anyone else. She'd use the bus but the service has been decimated.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Shapps really is an odious individual isn’t he.

even worse than Failing so that is saying something .

 

[O L Leigh]

Some of them need to find a more constructive way to address criticism, where some of their practices will appear to non-rail staff as appearing to belong in a parody of Carry on at your Convenience with the hot water tap fitter, the cold water tap fitter, and the inevitable strike.

Their union could help as well by ditching the class struggle rhetoric and hitting the TV studios to make the case for why their members and industry is worth the enormous taxpayer support received and the enormous collateral damage the UK is taking on their behalf next week.

Perhaps so.

But maybe it would help if you took your blinkers off and started to understand why certain things are required to be done rather than just swallowing a half-baked media story hook, line and sinker. Things are being explained to you but you seem set on ignoring what you're being told, preferring instead a narrative that suits your own prejudices. Maybe by listening you will find that they do make sense, even to non-railstaff such as (presumably) yourself.

 

[jayah]

I’m scratching my head on that one too. This whole thread has become rather ridiculous over some obscure article in daily newspaper & we all know how accurate the media are on such topics. Oh well.

The DM article didn't even suggest removing walking time, only challenging the excessive way the way it was decided.

Unfortunately it is not an obscure article, appearing on two of the biggest news platforms in the country and if it really is as flatly untrue as many suggest, not something the unions should want to leave on the record unchallenged.

Perhaps so.

But maybe it would help if you took your blinkers off and started to understand why certain things are required to be done....

I say again, the DM article did not oppose the concept of walking time, but the method of how they managed to end up with so much of it in that example.

 

[O L Leigh]

Unfortunately it is not an obscure article, appearing on two of the biggest news platforms in the country and if it really is as flatly untrue as many suggest, not something the unions should want to leave on the record unchallenged.

The dispute is not about walking times, therefore it's not a point to be challenged. It's only a media issue because someone has decided to twist the picture in order to try and make us look old-fashioned and reactive.

I say again, the DM article did not oppose the concept of walking time, but the method of how they managed to end up with so much of it in that example.

...due to a failure to understand what they are for.

 

[jayah]

You totally ignored what I said. In many places they aren't dying. They are absolutely essential. Sure not everywhere, but to propose closing all ticket offices (like the Times article mentioned a page or two ago said) is absolutely bonkers and shows how out of touch with passengers the government is.

It doesn't help the RMT conflated those issues by announcing in capital letters a list of every ticket office at imminent threat of closure when such proposals don't exist at least in public and the list appeared to be a list of ticket offices as if Manchester Piccadilly was about to close next week.

It isn't just the tabloids that talk nonsense from time to time.

 

[dk1]

The DM article didn't even suggest removing walking time, only challenging the excessive way the way it was decided.

Unfortunately it is not an obscure article, appearing on two of the biggest news platforms in the country and if it really is as flatly untrue as many suggest, not something the unions should want to leave on the record unchallenged.

Some newspaper articles are just better ignored. Let them blow away in the next storm as they are worth nothing more.

 

[dereksingh291]

Will the strike be running until the end of November with a couple of strike days per month?

 

[jayah]

Some newspaper articles are just better ignored. Let them blow away in the next storm as they are worth nothing more.

You could look at it another way, which is the opening of negotiations in public for productivity vs pay.

This strike will end one of 3 ways, a year of striking and no improvement, pay for productivity or Boris finding a new printing press and giving the whole public sector 11%.

My money is on number 1) at the moment, but I remain hopeful that 2) is still in play. That would be better all round inside the rail industry and out.

What do the RMT actually think, does anyone know?

The union should not ignore the massive loss of public support (if it ever existed) from having so much detail on lesser known practices and agreements exposed like this.