Rail strikes discussion

[Need2]

As a passenger it's difficult to have much sympathy when the taxpayer bailed out the rail industry through Covid.

How selfish can a person get?

The benefits of joining a place that calls everyone brother and sister in a totally not weird or creepy way? If I was in this industry, I'd take my chances at the disciplinary hearing.

So you are talking about something that you have absolutely no knowledge of then?

 

[jayah]

Of course the ‘Hidden’ rules come in after 13 days. That has been decided to be the proper limit (and rolling 72h/week) Although that can always change eventually and fatigue is increasingly on the radar. Personally 11 days is a limit for me (based on 8h shifts generally

Hidden rules are arguably 30yrs out of date. 12hr shifts especially, but 12hrs day after day just shouldn't be allowed.

Can you acknowledge that the article you’ve read is a load of biased nonsense? If so we will make some progress.

It was well sourced from within the industry and in fact the paragraphs covering Sunday working completely confirm what is already on this forum.

We will make progress when the RMT realise some ticket office will have to close and they aren't going to get 7% with no strings.

 

[ComUtoR]

Agree with some of the rest, but not at all with this. I like the terms of my employment and my place of work. Nobody should need to quit a workplace because things get “pretty nasty”.

You put the bits in bold across two separate paragraphs. :/

They aren't linked. Hence the change of paragraph.

 

[HL7]

Hidden rules are arguably 30yrs out of date. 12hr shifts especially, but 12hrs day after day just shouldn't be allowed.

It was well sourced from within the industry and in fact the paragraphs covering Sunday working completely confirm what is already on this forum.

We will make progress when the RMT realise some ticket office will have to close and they aren't going to get 7% with no strings.

If the government want to have Sundays inside the working week across all operators then they’ll have to put a proposal to them.

 

[jayah]

Public opinion is irrelevant in this or any dispute. The public cannot influence any outcome, save for putting pressure on politicians to get it sorted.

Completely wrong.

The railways are public sector payroll in all but name, especially Network Rail.

Public opinion holds that nurses are first for any spare cash and striking rail workers who pick and choose whether they can bothered to work Sundays are a long way down that list.

The railways are almost nationalised and this issue suddenly became about public opinion and politics.

 

[Dryce]

The taxpayer bailed out millions of people through covid. Should anyone who was furloughed be banned from getting a pay rise? How about giving them a separate tax code so that they can give some of that cash back given that they would likely have been laid off otherwise?

The separate tax code sounds like a good idea.

And a separate business and corporation tax and business rates adjustments for companies that got money.

And instead of giving people additional tax allowance for working from home - give a tax allowance for those who have to attend a place of work.

If the government want to have Sundays inside the working week across all operators then they’ll have to put a proposal to them.

Or why not just employ new recruits on that basis.

Over a given period then the pool of those available to work the weekend or other out of hours patterns would increase
- gradually reducing the inconvenience to those on the older contracts.

 

[RockemSockem]

Completely wrong.

The railways are public sector payroll in all but name, especially Network Rail.

Public opinion holds that nurses are first for any spare cash and striking rail workers who pick and choose whether they can bothered to work Sundays are a long way down that list.

The railways are almost nationalised and this issue suddenly became about public opinion and politics.

Public opinion on really matters with regards to strike when they have actual influence on the process and therefore the outcome.

If TOCs could offer a service and the public chose to use it as per normal then it undermines the surplus destruction of the strike action, public support in that situation would be a boycott of an available service.

Public opinion is nice to have, because you’re less likely to get abuse, but it’s not a requirement for successful industrial action in this circumstance.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

The separate tax code sounds like a good idea.

And a separate business and corporation tax and business rates adjustments for companies that got money.

And instead of giving people additional tax allowance for working from home - give a tax allowance for those who have to attend a place of work.

In fairness, it shouldn't be a tax on people who were furloughed, possibly the companies though if based on profits from 2020-22.

However, the £7B gap in ticket sales is a huge issue. Where is that money? People working from home are not now paying train fares and neither are companies who offer season tickets as perks - instead of tax allowances, working from home should incur a tax as it is their outgoings that have decreased (ignoring home fuel costs as that has affected everyone regardless)

 

[michael74]

Eh...!? Which hospital is that then....?

Ok, so community nurses travel in uniform but they're unlikely to be working late at night and travelling on trains for the purposes of their job

I can name 2 that I have personally worked in and know of many more that have a uniform policy that states that due to a lack of suitable changing area it is acceptable for clinical staff to wear their uniform too and from work, so what's your point? Oh and Community Nurses work Evenings and Nights as well (but by the very nature of that role, most have a car).

 

[jayah]

I am not going against them. I respect their right to strike. What I don’t understand is why my right to go to work can’t be equally respected. I haven’t joined the union in the first place, neither obviously voted.
What do you mean by professional and that is it?
Once again, as you spoke about democracy, how can that have any meaning when people can not express their views freely? How can I not think that people that think like myself are either silent to avoid discrimination or simply pushed away from the industry by that bully and intimidation that you say it will probably happen?
I already understood that if I chose to work there will be certain rejection, no need to clarify that, what I am trying to gather is an understanding of the reasons behind it, in order to make a decision that I can live with.

I fear the railway is circling the plughole right now and it is about to washed out of the end of a dirty pipe to emerge in 1976.

 

[2021_Signaller]

I have. You said:

What evidence do you have that there would be no S&T or Pway cover until the service ended?

The S&T told me. Also quite logical since if they only work at night, what are you supposed to during the day with failures?

I will tell you that this is not the case. Why would Network Rail want to have infrastructure in a failed state, causing delays to trains, and with potential safety implications, for any longer than absolutely necessary to fix it? It’s nonsense.

Because Network Rail has to do what the government wants and the government wants cuts.

Where signaller workload will change is in granting more line blocks for works, but that has already happened. In any event, as I’m sure you know, there is a process for assessing signaller workload to provide assurance that it is safe and that signalling posts are correctly graded for the work entailed. There are countless examples of workstations being split, or upgraded, as workload increases. Safety is not compromised.

If safety is not compromised why have we not done this before? Oh wait, we did, as RailTrack and we all know how that ended ...

If you feel 12hour shifts are too much, then speak to your LOM, and your rep, about introducing 8hour shifts. I don’t think you will get much support from your colleagues.

12 hour shifts aren't the problem. Degraded working for potentially 12 hours is (and would be the same for 8 hours unsurprisingly, but you don't seem to understand this).

Again what evidence do you have for that? Have you been involved in the planning of the contingent service provision?

I know the people that have been asked to provide contingency planning who are LOMs that in theory know the rules, but haven't signalled a train for over 10 years. Watch and see, watch and see ...

It is transitory. Perhaps another 18months, in my opinion. Then we may well be in for a period of deflation. On that point, if inflation does turn negative, to say -3%, would anyone accept an above inflation pay rise of -2%?

What kind of argument is that? The structural economic factors that the politicians have allowed through Covid will take years to work out. Inflation isn't going down, it will continue to be devastating. However, you're right that if we wait long enough it will obviously be different

Patrolling frequencies have reduced where modern technologies have been deployed, yes. Although there is more to do here.

Because of cuts, not because of safety.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Public opinion on really matters with regards to strike when they have actual influence on the process and therefore the outcome.

If TOCs could offer a service and the public chose to use it as per normal then it undermines the surplus destruction of the strike action, public support in that situation would be a boycott of an available service.

Public opinion is nice to have, because you’re less likely to get abuse, but it’s not a requirement for successful industrial action in this circumstance.

Indeed, the issue with being a service industry is it is night on impossible to affect your employer (or employer's funding in this case). Striking in say manufacturing only really affects the employer by withdrawing labour therefore affecting output. The railway only really affects it's passengers and I have personally offered my apologies onboard over the past week for this but there is no way around it really is there.

 

[jayah]

You mention upskilling.

It’s odd how nobody in the Daily Mail or Sun reports that the Tory Government approved GTR’s deskilling of drivers ?

Before the 2018 timetable change every Great Northern driver was able to drive almost all the types of trains and almost all routes on their network.

Now most can only drive 2 different trains types and a fraction of the route.

So why did the government decide to approve that decision ? How did they allow this inefficiency to creep in ?

Does it mean they get paid but don't have productive work to fill the day?

 

[HL7]

The separate tax code sounds like a good idea.

And a separate business and corporation tax and business rates adjustments for companies that got money.

And instead of giving people additional tax allowance for working from home - give a tax allowance for those who have to attend a place of work.


Or why not just employ new recruits on that basis.

Over a given period then the pool of those available to work the weekend or other out of hours patterns would increase
- gradually reducing the inconvenience to those on the older contracts.

Im sure I heard a TOC had suggested something like this to Aslef but they were told they would be in dispute at that point.

 

[jayah]

Public opinion is nice to have, because you’re less likely to get abuse, but it’s not a requirement for successful industrial action in this circumstance.

If the public thought you were worth 7% no strings and were willing to pay, you'd probably get it.

Always easier to get more pay from the farebox or productivity as people don't always want to pay more taxes even if it sounds like a good cause.

I'd say care, housing and waiting lists are way ahead in the queue.

Genuinely interested to hear what success looks like for this strike and why on earth you think a strike aiming at 7% no strings is ever likely to get even close?

 

[Dryce]

How selfish can a person get?

The one bailed out during covid and now asking for more money - or the one observing that they were bailed out during covid and are asking for for more money?

I'm hacked off - paying for a ralway in Scotland next week through my taxes - that was already running a reduced operation - that will be further reduced on 22nd and 24th and yet further reduced on the 21st, 23rd, and 25th.

Maybe if Holyrood gave me back some of my taxes for those days I'd be a bit less jaded.

 

[jayah]

Indeed but then why spend money refurbishing it in the first place

Agree but my local station is manned for a total of 20hrs a week in the morning as is the next one down the line so they aren't exactly going to save much by shutting them. There is no relief anymore either and until the latest occupant appeared about four months ago it had been shut for months as they couldn't recruit anyone so I can't see that shutting ticket offices is going to close the deficit between revenue and operating costs much. Ultimately driving revenue up is a quicker lever to pull but the DfT has yet to realise that strangling service provision isn't the answer. Also the industry now has a dislocation of resources in both units and staff to either strengthen or run additional services where there is demand (tourist and leisure areas) which isn't an easier fix as they can't be proactive without DfT agreement and they just aren't interested in taking risks on the financial bottom line.

If the ticket office sells 5 tickets in 7hrs it should probably close. The idea it 'won't save much' doesn't really work.

The passengers seem to have come back fairly well, especially at weekends, but the railway is miles behind the curve on Sunday services and the ticket office issue in particular.

 

[Dryce]

Im sure I heard a TOC had suggested something like this to Aslef but they were told they would be in dispute at that point.

Odd that .....

 

[Thermal]

Different terms for new employees does already happen. Depending when you started work you could already have different travel allowances, different notice periods, different pension rules, tiered pay whilst training amongst others. It's often said that Unions would refuse altered contracts for new workers out of hand, but this isn't the case as it already happens. I think the main barrier to this is more that companies often want to keep all of the productivity benefit from such a change for themselves at the detriment of employees, whereas Unions will only discuss it if at least part of the productivity benefit was shared amongst staff too. It's a negotiation barrier more than anything else.

 

[HL7]

Different terms for new employees does already happen. Depending when you started work you could already have different travel allowances, different notice periods, different pension rules, tiered pay whilst training amongst others. It's often said that Unions would refuse altered contracts for new workers out of hand, but this isn't the case as it already happens. I think the main barrier to this is more that companies often want to keep all of the productivity benefit from such a change for themselves at the detriment of employees, whereas Unions will only discuss it if at least part of the productivity benefit was shared amongst staff too. It's a negotiation barrier more than anything else.

Like most things, the easiest way to implement it will be through negotiation to change current T&Cs.

 

[jayah]

Well said. I know many others within Network Rail have said similar. Like you mention the route devolvement merely resulted in more managerial positions; it hasn't necessarily improved performance or staff morale. As usual many senior managers are out of touch with those who actually do the work. My own manager complains if i don't return acknowledgement slips for Periodical Operating Notices (PON's) etc, but fails to address the question that he'd never supplied them to me in the first place.

Sounds like the worst and worst of a state run enterprise.

Lost sight of its customers or even its own purpose, infested with greasy pole climbers, yes men and those who delight in over compliance to raise their own share price.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

If the ticket office sells 5 tickets in 7hrs it should probably close. The idea it 'won't save much' doesn't really work.

The passengers seem to have come back fairly well, especially at weekends, but the railway is miles behind the curve on Sunday services and the ticket office issue in particular.

You do realise that at all but the major stations, ticket offices are multifaceted and vital for those that need any form of assistance. Just because you don't need them doesn't mean they should be cast aside.

It was bad enough a few years ago when opening times were slashed, having staff at stations 7-11am meant no help for disabled passengers, those with luggage, those wanting to pay cash for their tickets as the single TVM is card only.

It may not be profitable to have ticket offices open, but this is public transport. A service, not goods which a company sells for a profit.

Very typical that cuts start at the bottom. The industry does need reform, but it should start from the top down.

 

[jayah]

Indeed, the issue with being a service industry is it is night on impossible to affect your employer (or employer's funding in this case). Striking in say manufacturing only really affects the employer by withdrawing labour therefore affecting output. The railway only really affects it's passengers and I have personally offered my apologies onboard over the past week for this but there is no way around it really is there.

It isn't really to do with being a service industry, it is because railway wages are paid by the taxpayer now, not the farebox or the privatised companies.

The only other avenue is self funded rises ie. productivity.

You do realise that at all but the major stations, ticket offices are multifaceted and vital for those that need any form of assistance. Just because you don't need them doesn't mean they should be cast aside.

It was bad enough a few years ago when opening times were slashed, having staff at stations 7-11am meant no help for disabled passengers, those with luggage, those wanting to pay cash for their tickets as the single TVM is card only.

It may not be profitable to have ticket offices open, but this is public transport. A service, not goods which a company sells for a profit.

Very typical that cuts start at the bottom. The industry does need reform, but it should start from the top down.

These same stations on the margins as far as ticket offices, are concerned might be unstaffed all weekend?

 

[NewSouthgate]

You and all the Daily Mail reading tax payers

Never read it and cannot remember the last time I actually picked up a newspaper.
Must admit I see both sides of the story having worked in the NorthEast for a number of years and saw how the shipbuilding and heavy engineering yards closed despite the unions trying to save it all I know first hand how trying to save jobs just didn’t work. No one should expect a job for life but should be paid for a reasonable standard of living to get through.
Now my state pension has just gone up by £100 pounds a year thank you very much and that’s going to go a long way.
Good luck to all who are trying to get a rise but be prepared for a big let down if it isn’t what you want.

 

[Newone2022]

I'm really struggling to understand your position here. You seem like a pleasant enough person and there's no reason why you shouldn't have a happy and healthy career on the railways. Why risk that to make a stand against something (ie. the strike) that frankly you don't seem to have much of a problem with, beyond it feeling a bit confrontational? I'd go further and suggest you actually join the union, because at least then you can exercise your democratic right to vote against action you think is unnecessary.

I do agree that you shouldn't be subject to things getting "nasty", but why allow that situation to arise? Is this really the hill to die on? What will you say if one of your colleagues asks why you accepted any pay deal that is negotiated, but knowingly undermined the strike?

From a personal/selfish point of view:
I do like my job and do not have concerns about my financial situation should my salary stay the same or increased in an small proportion. The same can’t be said if I start losing pay and the strikes drag for long.
I do fear that consequences of increased wage bills could prompt saving plans that could hit roles like mine.
From a broader perspective, I think I already explained it, but I believe that pay rises that try to catch up with inflation levels, more so if they go to workers earning above average, only fuel inflation further and make lower earners poorer.

 

[matacaster]

Exactly

Agree entirely. However the unions like labyrinthine sets of rules as it gives them leverage and means the union rep is a focal point. A more flexible attitude by both management and workforce would be preferable.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hi,
Network Rail worker out of the midlands and TSSA union member.
I will be joining the strike next week in solidarity due to having no pay rise in 3 years.
I meet Mr Grant Shapps only last year and he told me thank you for working through Covid. That thank you clearly does not extent to paying my mortgage, car insurance, gas bill, child care, etc.
I am a band 4 middle manager on £38k.
I get no bonus
I get no overtime
I am meant to work a 35 hour week but don’t think I have ever done less than 45 hours despite only being allowed to book 35 on the company’s internal time sheet.

Network Rail is a dire place to work, let me explain why.
Putting to one side the lack of pay rises and high inflation (real world pay cut) the company is stale.
There is no leadership from above, nor is leadership or enterprise encouraged at any level.
It’s one big burecratic mess that encourages itself to be more bureaucratic under the guises of health and safety.

The comments from conservative mps are from people who have no understanding.
If they had any understanding they would know the first and most important thing they need to do it wipe out the top few layers of management.
From the board down to band 3 level the roles are stuffed with people who adore rule enforcement, bureaucracy, that are risk averse to anything and everything and with no entrepreneurial understanding or dna.
It’s a company destined to fail, that delights in its failures and the failures give the large group of senior management reason to exist and dream up more schemes that profit outside companies at the expense of the taxpayer while having no benefit to passengers.

A few years ago they had a company reorganisation, to make the routes more accountable!
The result? Hundreds of more senior manager roles all on between £60-£150k, all pushing more bureaucracy, less productivity and even more risk adverse.

I would like it if grant shapps and co would spend some time and understand the problem starts with leadership or rather the lack of.

Network rail is in need of a major cull, but it needs to be the large group of senior managers.
The same managers who spent this past week boasting how they are going to earn double time and a lieu day during the strikes for ‘pointing passengers where to go on a platform’.

Network Rail or Great British Railways; whatever you call it until it gets some clear leadership and entrepreneurs running the show and rid of the mass of senior managers laughing at the taxpayer, the sooner it will turn around.

That's a very worrying analysis of Network Rail if true.
The route devolution was supposed to free up routes to do their own thing, separate from the bureaucratic norm.
They will have their own cheque book and everything that flows from being independent of "HQ".
It's also supposed to be the basis of GBR's Regional structure.
Andrew Haines as the top manager has a very high reputation in the industry and with HMG (and has run the CAA in the past), and some of his regional/route directors have similarly high profiles - such as Tim Shoveller (NW/Central) and Rob McIntosh (Eastern) - effectively bosses of the WCML/ECML respectively.
It's very depressing if their leadership has had no effect in the ranks of NR, as they will form the core of GBR.
These very people are part of the GBR Transition Team.

On a separate subject, the RMT claims it has done a pay deal of 8.4% with TfL.
Is this true, and what parts of the business were covered by it?

 

[GeordieO]

Isn't that illegal, or at least a breach of contract? The TSSA haven't struck (yet).

Yes it is, if you are in another union you can't join a picket line of the striking union, and leave yourself open to discipline proceedings.

However, as someone earlier said, do employers get informed which members of staff are in which union?

 

[ComUtoR]

Yes it is, if you are in another union you can't join a picket line of the striking union, and leave yourself open to discipline proceedings.

I'm not sure if you are allowed to join the picket line but you can refuse to cross it. You would be treated as if you were on strike and protected accordingly.

 

[35B]

A union isn't a club. A representative of a union is expected to, and should always represent their members. They should not be picking & choosing who they do represent based on if the members chose to strike or not. And if they do, quite frankly they should resign as reps because they are clearly not suitable for the role.

Perhaps. But, at least since the abolition of the closed shop, unions are organisations that members choose to join (or not), subject to the rules of the union, which they say that they will abide by. To be asked then to then, on a voluntary basis, represent that colleague's interests when they have chosen not to abide by the same agreement that I've signed up to is at least challenging. Passing it on to someone who is not emotionally involved seems a fair compromise.

I write this as someone who regards the use of terms like "scab" as vile, and detests the culture of ostracism that some on here have rejoiced in.