Rail strikes discussion

[Islineclear3_1]

The RMT website states "attacking terms, conditions and working practices in a form of internal hire and re-fire"

What jobs specifically have been subject to hire and re-fire? I am genuinely interested

 

[Moonshot]

Just wondering if anyone could help out with my earlier request

Nothing on pensions has been announced. It's as you were.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

So, if you have a high mortgage because you have a higher salary are you saying people should be happy not to have a pay rise? Lol can you tell us all the price of house we should have, mortgage cost and outgoings, and could you let me know the minimum amount I can earn a year before I’m allowed to complain about a pay rise? Cheers.

Edit: survive, life in the UK is about surviving in 2022? Forget enjoying it, surviving??? Absolutely maddening you’re annoyed at someone earning 40k a year.

Don’t be so silly. I’m not at all annoyed at someone earning that. It’s not even a large amount. I’m saying it’s embarrassing the guard telling the train his salary, his personal life and unprofessional remarks about his bosses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, if you have a high mortgage because you have a higher salary are you saying people should be happy not to have a pay rise?

Don't see how you got to that. The view was (and mine is too) that airing your dirty laundry about your employer in public while doing your job is unacceptable behaviour. It's a matter between them, their Union and the employer, and none of the passengers' business.

 

[yorksrob]

They keep on claiming they're not the employer but, for all practical intents and purposes, they are! They accept they need to be around the table for teachers' negotiations, even though they are legally speaking employed by individual trusts, academies or local authorities - so how is this any different? The government literally reimburses the TOCs for every cost and decides what expenditure is and isn't acceptable to them.

This is a highly disingenuous attempt to sidestep accountability and pin the blame elsewhere. As for the suggestion that the RMT won't negotiate with a Tory government... they'd be waiting a long time for a payrise if that were really the case!

The Government are happier using rail passengers as pawns in an industrial dispute than schoolchildren, is what it boils down to.

The Unions and opposition need to be pressing the argument that the Government and Treasury are in control and and should be at the negotiating table.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Don't see how you got to that. The view was (and mine is too) that airing your dirty laundry about your employer in public while doing your job is unacceptable behaviour. It's a matter between them, their Union and the employer, and none of the passengers' business.

Indeed, the user has got the wrong end of the stick entirely from what I was saying.

 

[Watershed]

Just wondering if anyone could help out with my earlier request

In terms of T&Cs, I think the issue is that the government have once again dug up the suggestion that "outdated working practices" (e.g. Sundays being outside the working week) be abolished - which will necessarily involve a change to T&Cs. Of course the union jumps straight to framing this as "attacks on our hard-earned conditions", when they know full well it's simply going to form part of any negotiations, if it's even a serious proposal.

In terms of pensions, I haven't seen any evidence of proposed changes to any of the pension schemes - though again, that may well be something the government considers including in any negotiations (as it is well known that defined benefit pension schemes are considered unaffordable in the long run).

Aside from the widely discussed issue of the level of the pay increase, I think the job cuts is probably the most material point that has been raised by the union. This is in reference to the proposals for around 2500 Network Rail maintenance staff to be made redundant through an increase in the level of automation, as well as possibly some TOC staff (booking office staff in particular have been mooted).

I think if the government gave a guarantee of no compulsory redundancies (which has generally been achievable in past railway restructurings) this need not be a dealbreaker. Of course that may mean some people having to change jobs, which is what I think they're referring to with the rather disingenuous phrase "form of internal fire & re-hire".

The problem is that, as with many of the disputes that escalate like this, both sides are resorting to unhelpful and bombastic rhetoric, and at the moment neither party has fully accepted that there will need to be compromise if a deal is to be made.

 

[trainstrainstr]

Almost certainly nothing. Firstly TOCs, with the possible exception of those run by DOR, are almost certainly not public bodies within the scope of the legislation. Secondly there are FOI exemptions for commercially sensitive information.

Disclosure: l have drafted and/or approved a lot of FOl responses!

Unlikely to be able to apply commercial exemption to this. You can only really use that if releasing the information would result in damage to revenue making capabilities or its a trade secret. This isn't a trade secret and it would be a stretch to say it would damage their ability to generate revenue.

If Abellio are paying £500 as quoted then that's huge!

 

[Ivor]

I’m totally in favour that workers salary/benefits/conditions in all industries are not eroded & power to the elbow to those who have a union that fight for them.

I wanted to point out that though that there are railway workers like myself (agency) & many agency colleagues who have had this week’s shifts cancelled as ‘surplus to requirements’ because of the strike.

Bearing in mind our weekly shifts issued can range from zero to seven per week & anything in between.

If the strike continues for weeks or months then agency workers many already struggling on just over a tenner & some under a tenner pre tax/NI (based on region) won’t survive.

It isn’t just the fare paying passengers impacted & outside of my shifts for social travel I too am a fare paying passenger. There is a negative trickle down effect on certain staff in the industry because of a strike.

With that said I sincerely hope railway staff get a ‘fair day’s pay for a fair day’s work’ if that can be quantified.

 

[Watershed]

Unlikely to be able to apply commercial exemption to this. You can only really use that if releasing the information would result in damage to revenue making capabilities or its a trade secret. This isn't a trade secret and it would be a stretch to say it would damage their ability to generate revenue.

If Abellio are paying £500 as quoted then that's huge!

Given the amount of revenue that each contingency guard shift saves the railway from losing, I'd say £500 is not necessarily as huge as it might at first seem. And remember it's only going to be paid for the duration of the strike, i.e. it will more than be 'paid for' by the wages of striking workers that won't have to be paid.

 

[northwichcat]

Though one thing I do find unacceptable is TOCs cancelling already-planned engineering RRBs on strike days. They should still run, even if they aren't useful to everyone.

Yes. Although, I would say if the plan was to run 4 replacement bus services after 10pm then there would be nothing wrong with an operator proposing to run 4 replacement daytime services instead. (As well as would be better but it seems there's sticking to their guns about not being required to provide replacement transport due to industrial action).

 

[35B]

But that's the RMT's function: to advocate for its members, who are by definition a subsection of a subsection. How do you propose it secures better conditions for the entire working class?

I suggest that they cut the rhetoric and admit what they are, rather than pretending to be something that they aren't - and where their actions in a dispute demonstrate them to be hypocrites.

 

[Bryan111]

Exactly, it was pathetic and embarrassing. To think he actually gave his precise salary. And moaned that he couldn’t put food on the table. It was something like £40,000 which isn’t millions but will hardly put you in poverty when you think cabin crew start on roughly £15,000 and survive.

Cabin Crew are not starting on £15,000 a year lol. More like £33,000+

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Cabin Crew are not starting on £15,000 a year lol. More like £33,000+

I must have seen a dodgy advert then. But to be honest how much it is is neither here nor there it’s the fact he shouldn’t be announcing his salary over the tannoy for public support.

 

[TheBigD]

Cabin Crew are not starting on £15,000 a year lol. More like £33,000+

Seriously?

Base starting salary for British Airways mixed Cabin fleet is currently around £17800.

*f

 

[Dan G]

In terms of T&Cs, I think the issue is that the government have once again dug up the suggestion that "outdated working practices" (e.g. Sundays being outside the working week) be abolished - which will necessarily involve a change to T&Cs. Of course the union jumps straight to framing this as "attacks on our hard-earned conditions", when they know full well it's simply going to form part of any negotiations, if it's even a serious proposal.

In terms of pensions, I haven't seen any evidence of proposed changes to any of the pension schemes - though again, that may well be something the government considers including in any negotiations (as it is well known that defined benefit pension schemes are considered unaffordable in the long run).

Aside from the widely discussed issue of the level of the pay increase, I think the job cuts is probably the most material point that has been raised by the union. This is in reference to the proposals for around 2500 Network Rail maintenance staff to be made redundant through an increase in the level of automation, as well as possibly some TOC staff (booking office staff in particular have been mooted).

I think if the government gave a guarantee of no compulsory redundancies (which has generally been achievable in past railway restructurings) this need not be a dealbreaker. Of course that may mean some people having to change jobs, which is what I think they're referring to with the rather disingenuous phrase "form of internal fire & re-hire".

The problem is that, as with many of the disputes that escalate like this, both sides are resorting to unhelpful and bombastic rhetoric, and at the moment neither party has fully accepted that there will need to be compromise if a deal is to be made.

Thank you. I do find NR staff cuts (and, aiui, a reduction of annual hours of maintenance) very worrying.

RE pensions, this page https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-statement/ says "savage the Railway Pension Scheme and the TFL scheme, cutting benefits, making staff work longer, and poorer in retirement, while paying increased contributions". I'm wondering what the truth is!

 

[ar10642]

Cabin Crew are not starting on £15,000 a year lol. More like £33,000+

I used to work for an airline and I can tell you £15k is closer to the mark.

 

[Agent_Squash]

At this point, the strikes are a government exercise to see how far they can get away with privatising the blame, nationalising the gain. Wouldn’t be surprised if owning groups left UK rail over this - ultimately they have to do damage limitation to their brands at some point.

 

[Bryan111]

Seriously?

Base starting salary for British Airways mixed Cabin fleet is currently around £17800.

*f

Maybe that's why they're always in the news threatening strike action.

I used to work for an airline and I can tell you £15k is closer to the mark.

I was flying up until last summer. My basic was 22k and total pay for the year according to my P60 was over £33,000.

 

[duncanp]

Looks like there is the basis for a negotiated settlement, albeit too late to stop this week's strikes.

There will probably be a bit of haggling over the detail, but ultimately both sides will have to compromise to get a deal, whatever they might be saying publicly at the moment.

Rail bosses willing to offer 5pc pay rise, with conditions, to avert strike

Sources close to the talks say Network Rail wants RMT to agree to modernise and give up so-called Spanish practices

www.telegraph.co.uk

Rail bosses willing to offer 5pc pay rise, with conditions, to avert strike​

Sources close to the talks say Network Rail wants RMT to agree to modernise and give up so-called Spanish practices

Rail bosses are prepared to offer striking unions a five per cent pay rise to settle the dispute that will bring trains to a grinding halt on Tuesday.

Sources close to the negotiations said Network Rail was willing to make the offer but only if the RMT agrees to modernise and give up so-called Spanish practices.

Network Rail and RMT negotiators, including Mick Lynch, the union’s general secretary, were locked in talks on Monday morning to try to head off strikes planned for Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. Even if strikes are called off, any deal would come too late to avert chaos on the railways with a reduced timetable already in place.

Network Rail has officially offered the RMT a two per cent pay rise with “no strings attached” and a further one per cent later in the year if certain efficiency targets are met.

That is in line with a cap on public sector pay imposed by the Treasury last month in an attempt to dampen spiralling inflation.

But with inflation running at nine per cent and predicted to rise to 11 per cent by the autumn, the RMT has flatly turned the offer down and called for strikes.

A Network Rail source said: “We are still trying to find some common ground that might not be enough to resolve the dispute, but might offer enough progress that the unions could call off the strike and continue talks. At this late stage we couldn’t change rosters and schedules and it would take until Saturday for services to return to almost normal.

“A five per cent pay offer would not be beyond the wit of man if there were enough compromises on the table. This is completely solvable. There is so much slack in the system because of the union’s working practices. Solving that could unlock so much savings that it could fund the pay rise.”

Network Rail believes it can save hundreds of millions of pounds by shutting down swathes of ticket offices and changing working practices over issues like track inspections. Network Rail is arguing that most train tickets are now bought online or at automated machines even though the number of ticket offices has barely declined in the past 20 years. Maintenance inspections, argues Network Rail, are better done using automated cameras on trains that can detect cracks in rails that can’t be spotted by the human eye.

Sir Peter Hendy, chairman of Network Rail, told LBC radio on Monday: “There are working practices which date back, if not to the age of steam trains, not long afterwards, and we think we can run the railway more effectively with less people. That doesn’t mean we’ll be necessarily getting rid of people.”

The RMT has declined to disclose in public its specific demands but insists the threat of 2,000 job cuts must be taken off the negotiating table prior to any agreed pay increase.

On Sunday, Mr Lynch suggested the union had been looking for a pay rise that kept up with the cost of living and pointed out that inflation was at seven per cent when discussions over pay first began in December.

Boris Johnson and Grant Shapps, the Transport Secretary, are understood to be supportive of a pay rise of around five per cent. But the Treasury is said to be concerned that creating a special exemption for the railways would be likely to spark anger among nurses, doctors, teachers and other public sector workers also now threatening industrial action.

A senior rail industry source said: “Let’s just say we could settle this for five per cent. And let’s just say they [the RMT] agree. But at the moment we wouldn’t be allowed to settle it - because we are breaching the three per cent [cap], even though we can fully fund it.

“The Prime Minister gets that. Grant Shapps gets that. There is the risk of almost King Canute-like behaviour within the Treasury.”

 

[KM1991]

The RMT website states "attacking terms, conditions and working practices in a form of internal hire and re-fire"

What jobs specifically have been subject to hire and re-fire? I am genuinely interested

How else are you going to increase hours in the working week from 35 to 40 or 44 & include sundays as part of the working week. Completely unacceptable proposals under any circumstances

 

[FR510]

One side is not telling the truth here. My own TOC MD has stated he wants to give all their staff a pay rise. They have a business plan including a new timetable for December 2022 and the pay increases would be linked to productivity. Apparently all this has been presented to the DFT for approval and HM Treasury is refusing to agree to any of it.

Yet the government are publiclly saying it's not for them to negotiate. That should be between the companies and the unions. Well that has already happened in this case and it won't be agreed by the Treasury.

?????

 

[GB]

What are these so called “Spanish practices“?

 

[moleman212]

I used to work for an airline and I can tell you £15k is closer to the mark.

Wrong. £15k wouldn't even be the basic salary and then there are allowances on top of that etc.

What are these so called “Spanish practices“?

I assume a "mañana mañana" ethos

We're not to blame for those that fail to unionise and take action against poor pay. For the amount of responsibility I have and the risks that I manage 29000 is low. Now it's 11% lower and who knows what else is coming, yet some people seem to think we should be cheery and grateful to be paid that. Nope. This will run and run.

If passengers are happy or think the government is supposedly defending their interests- more fool them.

Feel free to move into another job then. No one is forcing you to work for the railways.

 

[Need2]

Indeed, the user has got the wrong end of the stick entirely from what I was saying.

But I can see where he’s coming from when in as many words you say a salary of £40 k won’t put you in poverty so stop moaning.
The more you earn, the more you spend otherwise what’s the point?
Another point, where did you get the figure £40k from, both of your salary figures that you quote are wholly inaccurate?

 

[Bluejays]

I think that poster clarified that they were fully supportive of railway workers getting a fair deal and the strikes, so they weren't necessarily coming at this from a "if you don't like it, leave" perspective.

Maybe it wasn't meant in that way then. Just felt it was a bit blunt in all honesty. To respond to a long and obviously heartfelt post with a a short little cut down.

 

[Class 466]

What are these so called “Spanish practices“?

Didn't you know at 1pm everything stops for a siesta?

 

[Wolfie]

One side is not telling the truth here. My own TOC MD has stated he wants to give all their staff a pay rise. They have a business plan including a new timetable for December 2022 and the pay increases would be linked to productivity. Apparently all this has been presented to the DFT for approval and HM Treasury is refusing to agree to any of it.

Yet the government are publiclly saying it's not for them to negotiate. That should be between the companies and the unions. Well that has already happened in this case and it won't be agreed by the Treasury.

?????

My guess is either that the "link to productivity" is regarded by DfT/HMT as not ambitious enough; or that said link doesn't go near covering additional costs, so the taxpayer is being asked for more funding; or indeed just possibly both of those.

 

[SignallerJohn]

Don’t be so silly. I’m not at all annoyed at someone earning that. It’s not even a large amount. I’m saying it’s embarrassing the guard telling the train his salary, his personal life and unprofessional remarks about his bosses.

You literally said:

Exactly, it was pathetic and embarrassing. To think he actually gave his precise salary. And moaned that he couldn’t put food on the table. It was something like £40,000 which isn’t millions but will hardly put you in poverty when you think cabin crew start on roughly £15,000 and survive.

So why did you say that then?????? That little swipe wasn’t needed if what you’re saying is true.

 

[Class 466]

A senior rail industry source said: “Let’s just say we could settle this for five per cent. And let’s just say they [the RMT] agree. But at the moment we wouldn’t be allowed to settle it - because we are breaching the three per cent [cap], even though we can fully fund it.

And this is exactly why this is going to go on for a while. The Government.