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Rail strikes discussion

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Domeyhead

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I would happily support the current RMT pay demands if after it was granted we moved into an era of collaboration and constructive behaviour towards a better railway. I would look forward to more worker involvment and even representation on committees discussing not just operational matters but even strategic decisions where grass roots expertise and experience would benefit decision making.
But it Won't happen.
It cannot happen with the current RMT ingrained aggressive-victimhood and confrontational grievance based attitude. Any kind of collaboration is impossible in this atmosphere. It stifles creativity and destroys attempts at cooperation. Surely the majority of rail staff must be tired of working in an environment of endless antagonism. I want to support the RMT but knowing that this current dispute is just a stepping stone to the next manufactured and inflamed dispute over some working practice or other means acceding to demands without conditions is pointless. Give me Sidney Weighell or Jimmy Knapp over the current leadership any day.
 
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NorthernSpirit

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Not to mention that in Tiverton, the actual Tory safe seat, they actually need people to vote Labour because red/yellow vote splitting is the way the Tories take and retain seats. They need "not Tory" voters to avoid voting Lib Dem.

So I doubt their endless "vote Labour for more of this" nonsense is with any thought given to the by elections
Realistically no matter whose in Government there will always be strikes, take Arriva Trains Northern for example. The way I'd run the railways would be to sectorise the lot and run each one as a building soceity - you pay your fare, you get a share (and a say on how its run).
 

nottsnurse

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1 May 2014
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275
Playing the “key worker in Covid” is frankly tiresome and tedious. Get over it, that’s history now.
Is it?

Try telling the large number of my colleagues who are off with Long Covid and/or MH issues that have come about from working at the sharp end of the pandemic that it's "history now".
 
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It was Saturdays rather than Sundays, but the Marches line (Newport-Shrewsbury) was closed twice recently because of lack of a signaller at Hereford.
Yes, but if that is sickness related, which it would have been, that could happen on any day to any industry in the land. Signallers can't work if they're sick. They are managing huge risks with enormous responsibilities and if they make mistakes they go to prison. They have to be 100%. The professionalism that is required to be a signaller is enormous.
 

WelshBluebird

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I would happily support the current RMT pay demands if after it was granted we moved into an era of collaboration and constructive behaviour towards a better railway. I would look forward to more worker involvment and even representation on committees discussing not just operational matters but even strategic decisions where grass roots expertise and experience would benefit decision making.
But it Won't happen.
It cannot happen with the current RMT ingrained aggressive-victimhood and confrontational grievance based attitude. Any kind of collaboration is impossible in this atmosphere. It stifles creativity and destroys attempts at cooperation. Surely the majority of rail staff must be tired of working in an environment of endless antagonism. I want to support the RMT but knowing that this current dispute is just a stepping stone to the next manufactured and inflamed dispute over some working practice or other means acceding to demands without conditions is pointless. Give me Sidney Weighell or Jimmy Knapp over the current leadership any day.
Right because there has been no aggressiveness or lack of cooperation or antagonism from the other side?
The lies told by the government around who can sign off pay rises?
The bringing in drivers wages into the discussion when they aren't relevant to the RMT strikes?
The very specific timing of dropping the news about ticket office closures at the time of the strikes?
The very specific timing of dropping the news about network rail going ahead with significant job cuts at the same time of the strikes?
The misleading statements from the government about automation and "modernisation" (ignoring the fact there has been significant movement in both areas in recent years already - I've read some people suggest why can't they use trains with camera's attachment to inspect the track - totally mislead by the government into thinking that doesn't already happen!!).
 
Joined
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Location
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I would happily support the current RMT pay demands if after it was granted we moved into an era of collaboration and constructive behaviour towards a better railway. I would look forward to more worker involvment and even representation on committees discussing not just operational matters but even strategic decisions where grass roots expertise and experience would benefit decision making.
But it Won't happen.
It cannot happen with the current RMT ingrained aggressive-victimhood and confrontational grievance based attitude. Any kind of collaboration is impossible in this atmosphere. It stifles creativity and destroys attempts at cooperation. Surely the majority of rail staff must be tired of working in an environment of endless antagonism. I want to support the RMT but knowing that this current dispute is just a stepping stone to the next manufactured and inflamed dispute over some working practice or other means acceding to demands without conditions is pointless. Give me Sidney Weighell or Jimmy Knapp over the current leadership any day.
Rubbish. First strike for Network Rail operational staff ever. Last on strike under RailTrack in 1994.
 

Shrop

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This. Pensioners in 2022 are some of the most well off in society. Its not like the 70s. Now they all own the homes they bought for a few grand , and many are very comfortable. They stayed safely at home during covid whilst key workers had to go out and put our lives on the line. The younger generation can only dream of home ownership etc, and yet there are many that begrudge working people a small payrise??? Its unbelievable frankly. If Boris can afford 10 percent for pensioners then 5 percent for working people with no strings should be a given.
As a pensioner I did't ask for a pension rise and I would have completely accepted not having any rise at all, since EVERYONE should be accepting tightening their purse strings thanks to Covid and the Ukraine war. Most pensioners were hard working once, and many still are, doing low paid jobs to supplement what they have, and many more do voluntary jobs because they continue to want to do their bit to help society. Boris giving pensioners a rise which many neither want nor need is a reason to have a go at Boris, not at pensioners.
 

Bikeman78

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Is the basic premise untrue? Does sound rather Flanders and Swann...

If it is true it wants fixed.
I recall when Cardiff were putting in raised kerbs for bus stops. One team dug up the bus shelter and took it away. Another team put in the new kerbs and resurfaced the pavement. Then the first team came back and dug up the new pavement to put the shelter back! The process took weeks for each stop and was repeated all over Cardiff. I see no reason why each one could not have been done in a day or two at most.
 
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Statto

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I wonder if that's only for management or supervisory staff...

The members involved in the pay deal include Merseyrail station retailers, customer relations assistants, lead revenue protection officers, train crew admin assistants, driver managers, guards standards managers, station managers, service production managers, resource controllers, train service delivery managers and staff in fleet, safety, finance, HR, IT and transformation.

 

Xenophon PCDGS

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As a pensioner I did't ask for a pension rise and I would have completely accepted not having any rise at all, since EVERYONE should be accepting tightening their purse strings thanks to Covid and the Ukraine war. Most pensioners were hard working once, and many still are, doing low paid jobs to supplement what they have, and many more do voluntary jobs because they continue to want to do their bit to help society. Boris giving pensioners a rise which many neither want nor need is a reason to have a go at Boris, not at pensioners.
Do the Conservatives still see the "pensioner vote" as something useful in their favour at the time of General Elections?
 

Signaller2be

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Please don't believe everything the Daily Fail prints. Walking time allowances are not just plucked out of thin air. In many cases they are lower than is needed. The number of times I have eaten in to my break to hand lost luggage in at the left luggage place is unreal.
All this Tory rag is doing is printing lie after lie to divide the public. It's not a serious newspaper. If you really want truth you are better asking rail workers on here.
Fake news indeed
 
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Do the Conservatives still see the "pensioner vote" as something useful in their favour at the time of General Elections?
Of course they do. I walked into a restaurant this morning and I heard a group of 4 pensioners gassing on about the strikes being terrible, so I put the argument to them that I have to others on here to stunned silence. However, they have at least now heard both sides.

Unfortunately the government and its NR senior management lap dogs have done well at the propaganda and outright lying that has sucked so many in.

At least Mick Lynch is calling some of the liars out:

 
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Sorcerer

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It's so remarkable that despite the fact the Conservatives have been in power for the last 12 years there are still those who blame Labour for the current situation, typically those of the #BackBoris drivel. For a party that advocates itself as the champions of personal responsibility, they're unusually keen on blaming everyone else for the problems they have caused. I know Twitter isn't necessarily representative of the UK population as a whole, but I actually kind of take great personal offence that people this stupid actually exist.
 

samulih

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Other than an increasingly visible sense of arrogance and entitlement by some of them, I’m still trying to establish what actually sets railway workers aside from bank clerks, supermarket staff, NHS workers, dentists, vets, emergency services, bus drivers, road maintenance teams, council members etc. who are also suffering the cost of living increases too?

What makes the railway think we deserve a better payrise than them, seeing as if someone were to suggest the answer was simply greed they’d likely get torn down immediately?
All the people you mention have no easy way of rising against inequality, lets celebrate those who still have some power of demanding something... Rest of us live in the world where money is the only factor in deciding how much one can be exploited.....
 

KM1991

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3 Sep 2013
Messages
166
I am taking part in the strike days this week but, as a ticket office worker, I'm increasingly feeling that I'm doing this in solidarity with the guards and NR staff rather than to benefit my own role, more so since the 'plans' for ticket offices were made public at the weekend and with the government's plan to allow agency staff to cover for striking workers; as far as the booking office goes it will be relatively straightforward to use agency staff to replace the usual clerks who are on strike.

Hopefully it won't come to it but if there are many future strike days after this week, I don't think I'll be taking part in many more of them - and I think a lot of ticket office staff probably feel the same way.
Why? The power of our union is such that there are plans for staff members that are willing to transition into the new multi functional roles. If there was not a union, these TOCs would dump you without hesitation like we see in so many more sectors. Secondly, you are striking to protect your pay, pension and other working practices...I really don’t understand your way of thinking
 

Gems

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10 Nov 2018
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656
Playing the “key worker in Covid” is frankly tiresome and tedious. Get over it, that’s history now.
Well it's a bit like the first world war poem isn't it.
" Oh Tommy this, oh Tommy that, oh Tommy go away . But it's thank you Mr Atkins when the band begins to play"
 

Shrop

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Do the Conservatives still see the "pensioner vote" as something useful in their favour at the time of General Elections?
Of course they do. I walked into a restaurant this morning and I heard a group of 4 pensioners gassing on about the strikes being terrible, so I put the argument to them that I have to others on here to stunned silence.
Why discriminate against pensioners based on a survey of 4 out of millions? Of course some pensioners are Boris supporters, but there are millions who aren't. Don't be judgemental.
 

Fokx

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Playing the “key worker in Covid” is frankly tiresome and tedious. Get over it, that’s history now.
Most of your posts are tiresome and tedious with only your own views and inability to see any sense in views that aren’t your own
 
Joined
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Bojo is spoiling for a fight to deflect from Partygate, the no-confidence vote and his general lack of political ability.

He will be of the opinion that being seen to slap down the unions is a perfect “Thatcher-esque” grandstanding moment to galvanise the only people who matter to him - the 200,000 Conservative party members who voted him in charge of his party.

We’ve already seen with Brexit and the poor “deal” to leave the EU, the handling of covid and the shameless partygate behaviour that all he cares about is power and hanging on to it.

A fight will suit him - he has nothing to lose and this may well get very, very messy.
Boris has never had the interests of the country at heart. Everything he does is geared towards advancing his own personal interests and keeping him in power, preferably with even more power. He is power mad, like someone in Germany decades ago.

If he can hold out against the unions (regardless of industry), he will endeavour to do so, especially if this means maintaining the sheep-like support of those on his benches, many of whom are not intelligent enough to realise they are being manipulated.

It could indeed get very messy, unless his opponents can devise an effective strategy to undermine him and his support.
 

matacaster

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No it wasn't. Average house prices 50 years ago were £4000 and the average wage was £1800. Now the average house price in England is £298,000 and the average wage is £31k (25k is the median). Not to mention the deposit needed, when you have rent to pay, which because of private renters is absolutely extortionate! In fact a mortgage in the house I am currently sitting in would be £150 a month cheaper than renting. Fact of the matter is the younger, working, generation have it a hell of a lot worse off (as is evidenced) and we have to deal with lazy tropes about spending money on coffee, avacado on toast, netflix and phone contracts by an out of touch generation of people who haven't got a clue.

And many of the supermarket staff I came across were younger people, some of which had lost income from other jobs and needed to pay their bills.


Plainly obvious that the right wing press, at the behest of CCHQ, want to paint Starmer in a certain light. Sitting on the fence is the best option for now (see today's Dail Mail front page blaming Labour) especially as there are two massive by-elections tomorrow.


Agreed. His displays against Burley on Sky News and the lying Tory MPs on the Beeb were brilliant. Would love a Ros Atkins piece on the strikes, because some of his colleagues might then understand them!
The house price you quote is likely accurate, but is severely inflated by the astronomical prices in southern England. Up north a terrace house might be circa £125k, 3 bedroomed detached starting around your average figure. People don't have to live in London and SE.
 

Fokx

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People don't have to live in London and SE.
They don’t but it causes housing price rises elsewhere.

The ‘London commuter belt’ has seen high rises in places such as Didcot and it can even be seen in places like Manchester where businesses and employees have moved up north, and caused reactionary rises (but also modernisation!) to the larger cities
 
Joined
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Why discriminate against pensioners based on a survey of 4 out of millions? Of course some pensioners are Boris supporters, but there are millions who aren't. Don't be judgemental.
I'm sorry if I offended you. I thought it a useful anecdote to highlight why some people might believe there's a reason behind why Boris is giving pensioners a >10% payrise while suffocating the working public to the bare minimum.
 

windingroad

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16 Jun 2022
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234
Apologies if this was discussed already, I had a look and didn't find it. There's an article in the Telegraph with the headline "Archaic rail rules mean it takes nine workers to 'change a plug socket'".

I assume it's the usual pro-Tory, anti-Union bull, but I'm unwilling to subscribe to find out what it is they're talking about. Does anyone either subscribe or have an idea what rules they're talking about?

Link: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...s-mean-takes-nine-workers-change-plug-socket/
If you enter the article URL here it'll remove the paywall for you. A good way to avoid contributing any money to the likes of the Telegraph.
 

westv

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I'm sorry if I offended you. I thought it a useful anecdote to highlight why some people might believe there's a reason behind why Boris is giving pensioners a >10% payrise while suffocating the working public to the bare minimum.
The state pension is the bare minimum so 10% on the bare minimum isn't a lot.
 

duncanp

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If you enter the article URL here it'll remove the paywall for you. A good way to avoid contributing any money to the likes of the Telegraph.

Here is the article referred to.

I am not in a position to say how true or representative these examples are

But to take one example

Meanwhile, maintenance teams are not allowed to cross boundary lines. This means, for example, that if there is a fault on the Kings Cross to Potters Bar line and no staff available to fix it, a member from the nearby Euston to Watford line cannot step into the breach. “[If] the Euston team who had no call outs on their patch could have popped across the 500 yards to Kings Cross to sort the issue in short order,” the source said.

I would like to think that there is a good reason why a maintenance team based at Euston cannot fix a fault near Kings Cross. Or perhaps the Telegraph is talking a lot of ******** and this sort of thing happens anyway.



Archaic rail rules mean it takes nine workers to 'change a plug socket'​

RMT accused of calling strike to defend host of outdated practices

Rail unions have been accused of bringing the country to a standstill over archaic working practices that mean menial tasks such as "changing a plug socket" would take a team of nine workers.

Industry sources on Tuesday shed new light on inefficiencies that are costing taxpayers billions of pounds.

Demanding “walking time allowance” of 12 minutes for a one minute walk, specialist teams refusing to share vans, and engineers being unable to stray 500 yards from their dedicated patch are among the working practices that union chiefs are determined to defend, they claimed.

“We can’t roster individuals,” said one industry source. “Let’s imagine you want to change a single socket to a double in your kitchen. “Potentially you’d need an electrician, a tiler and a plumber as your dishwasher waste pipe will need adjusting too.

Alternatively, you could find a competent odd-jobber to do the whole task.

“In Network Rail we can’t roster individuals, only teams and we can’t multi-skill those teams so we’d need to send a team of three electricians, three tilers and three plumbers – nine people to do a job one person could do.

“Eighty per cent of the most common infrastructure faults could be fixed by small, multi-skilled teams.”

Andrew Haines, chief executive of Network Rail, on Tuesday said that “poor productivity” had become deeply entrenched throughout the railways.

"We are such an archaic industry in many of our working practices we can offer a good pay rise to our colleagues and good value for the taxpayer if only we can get sensible reforms in."

Mick Lynch, Rail, Maritime and Transport workers union (RMT) general secretary, has insisted he was not against change. “What we've got here is an unreasonable agenda of mass pay cuts, match job cuts and slashing of our terms and conditions,” he said on Monday.

But industry sources suggest otherwise. Another example they cite relates to the renovation of Birmingham New Street station, which began in 2010.

Prior to the rebuild, train crews were based in a “dark and dank” room in the bowels of the 19th Century station.

Once the £750m station rebuild got underway in 2010, crews were moved to the Guildhall in central Birmingham, a short walk away.

An industry source claimed: "The trade union insisted we renegotiate the walking time allowance, the paid time they get from leaving the train to arriving in the messroom – time that isn’t part of their breaktime.”

“[But] the trade union used a driver with a gammy leg and timed them from the end of the longest train, at the farthest extent of the station, to reach the Guildhall,” the source adds.

“And even then not via the rear exit to the Guildhall which spills out directly across the road from the station, but all the way around the building to use the main entrance where the lifts were located.

“The new walking time allowance was set at 12 minutes.”

The walk takes one minute, according to Google Maps. Meanwhile, maintenance teams are not allowed to cross boundary lines.

This means, for example, that if there is a fault on the Kings Cross to Potters Bar line and no staff available to fix it, a member from the nearby Euston to Watford line cannot step into the breach.

“[If] the Euston team who had no call outs on their patch could have popped across the 500 yards to Kings Cross to sort the issue in short order,” the source said.

The list goes on, they add. “Our specialist teams won’t share vans or equipment so we can't send one van with a mixed team in, we have to send two or more to each job. The specialist teams also won't collaborate even to the point of not helping to unload another team's kit.”

Switching desks at short notice, commonplace in many 21st Century offices, is also off-limits.

“In a major signalling centre we have up to half a dozen stations - desks with computers and screens on. If at the eleventh hour someone doesn’t turn up or falls sick we can ask a perfectly competent and qualified colleague to switch desks as they haven’t had adequate notice.”

Hours before the strike began on Tuesday, rail chiefs vowed to “dump outdated working practices” and cut 1,800 staff. In a letter to trade unions, Network Rail said it would press ahead with plans to cut jobs and overhaul working hours in an effort to slash costs.

Bosses at Network Rail said that despite spending “many hours” in discussions with union leaders, talks had not progressed.

Tim Shoveller, who has led Network Rail’s discussions with union leaders to date, added: “Last night [Monday] Network Rail passed a letter to the RMT asking them to attend the start of formal consultation talks on Jul 1 on the introduction of modern working practices in our maintenance organisation.

“The changes will mean dumping outdated working practices and introducing new technology, both of which will lead to a more effective and safer maintenance organisation.”
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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If you enter the article URL here it'll remove the paywall for you. A good way to avoid contributing any money to the likes of the Telegraph.
Why do "supporters of the left" keep harping on about the Telegraph and the Mail. Is there nothing worthwhile for them to praise in the newspapers of their own beliefs that they can enthuse about? If so, this is a very sad state of affairs.

Does anyone remember the column "Live letters, conducted by the Old Codgers" that was once a regular feature in the Daily Mirror?
 

Domeyhead

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Right because there has been no aggressiveness or lack of cooperation or antagonism from the other side?
The lies told by the government around who can sign off pay rises?
The bringing in drivers wages into the discussion when they aren't relevant to the RMT strikes?
The very specific timing of dropping the news about ticket office closures at the time of the strikes?
The very specific timing of dropping the news about network rail going ahead with significant job cuts at the same time of the strikes?
The misleading statements from the government about automation and "modernisation" (ignoring the fact there has been significant movement in both areas in recent years already - I've read some people suggest why can't they use trains with camera's attachment to inspect the track - totally mislead by the government into thinking that doesn't already happen!!).
All you are doing is illustrating the point WBB. I have worked in several industry sectors and the constant sense of grievance that you are illustrating is not typical in other sectors - it is increasingly out of step and in some ways it is now unique. The Ticket Office closure issue has been developing for over a year in response to the need to reduce staff numbers in the face of declining revenue. Nobody wants to do it but you infer that somehow the powers that be want to do it for some strange reason known only to management. More importantly It has not just been annouced - rather it has gained media prominence because of the Rail Dispute. Ditto the Redundancy scheme introduced in the wake of the Pandemic has not been "dropped" - this is just an uninformed Press suddenly dragging out minor press releases which they ignored at the time of their release. I am not sure what lies have been told around who signs off pay rises. Perhaps you can elaborate. The Media might be guilty of some of the things you mention - drivers wages for instance have been quoted by the Tory press but that is journalistic ignorance. Regarding the last point, MPs can and do quote on things they know nothing about - both parties are equally culpable of soundbite politics - and I have even heard the Trasnport Select Committee spout rubbish when they ought to know better, but the only persons who should be held to account for speaking rubbish are the Secretary and the Minister of State for Trasnport and their team. Your post illustrates the point I was making. It does not rebut it.
 
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