Rail strikes discussion

[Kraken]

Agreed. His displays against Burley on Sky News and the lying Tory MPs on the Beeb were brilliant. Would love a Ros Atkins piece on the strikes, because some of his colleagues might then understand them!

There’s always a Ros Atkins piece…

Ros Atkins on… Why rail strikes are happening

Ros Atkins examines why a dispute between the RMT union and employers has led to strike action.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[2021_Signaller]

You have spectacularly missed the point here. You think safety is proportional to the number of people you pay walking around looking for defects.

Tech is much more efficient, more productive and safer at doing many things.

The unions oppose tech because it means fewer, better paid jobs.

NR are full of ideas about how it can be more productive and a certain union oppose productivity and change.

No, actually you have yet again. Let me explain how this works. The maintenance can't get on the track to do their job - jobs that cannot be replaced by tech - due to the safety requirements which are now so onerous they now take an age for the signaller and the techs to agree.

For example, let's say the techs wanted to get on the track to do some maintenance on the AWS. It might only be a 30 minute job. Maybe I have gaps of 10 minutes between trains and previously 3X10minute gaps means that the total job will take one hour to complete.

If it now takes an extra 5 minutes to grant and give up the line block because of the placement of TCODs (now being introduced). The same maintenance job now takes 2 hours with 6x10 minute gaps between trains. The maintenance team is now 50% less productive than it was before the new safety policy brought in by NR senior management.

Do you now understand?
NR is making the signaller do more work and the maintenance spend more time doing nothing and waiting to get on track. The lack of productivity of maintenance is nothing to do with maintenance.

 

[boabt]

Well let me tell you my case. Although my pension will be around 17 to 20k , as I started as a driver at age of 48. Bought a flat with my then pregnant girlfriend. We don't last and she absolutely screws me financially. I meet someone else and have a second son with her. She doesn't screw me ( on practically min wage back then) . But we have to sell the house and the little equity paid off some debt. I work several different not very well paid jobs, while getting absolutely screwed for child support and I mean literally screwed corruptly by the CSA . The CSA were overcharging me for years and it's the one government dept that you can't beat in court. I get more in debt and finally finished Child support two years ago at age 50. I pay rent and plus bills plus some debt and I could probably afford to pay a mortgage , although high payments over not many years left. However with some debt left and a low credit rating, it will take me at least another two years to get a deposit together. So it's not always about splashing the cash as you put it.

I'm sure it helped to vent that lol - and I accept there are exceptional circumstances.

But I think its fairly obvious that to amass a £40k/year pension pot you would have needed to have been on a good wage for a decent number of years - you'd need to be popping out sprogs at the rate of Boris to not be able to have settled yer mortgage with the required income.

 

[eldomtom2]

The best question to Mr Lynch (comedy value wise, in my opinion) was when GMB Richard asked him if he is a Marxist or not because if he is; he wants to bring down capitalism and is into revolution!

Laughing my head off!

What twaddle!

What part of that are you accusing of being "twaddle"?

 

[The Planner]

No, actually you have yet again. Let me explain how this works. The maintenance can't get on the track to do their job - jobs that cannot be replaced by tech - due to the safety requirements which are now so onerous they now take an age for the signaller and the techs to agree.

For example, let's say the techs wanted to get on the track to do some maintenance on the AWS. It might only be a 30 minute job. Maybe I have gaps of 10 minutes between trains and previously 3X10minute gaps means that the total job will take one hour to complete.

If it now takes an extra 5 minutes to grant and give up the line block because of the placement of TCODs (now being introduced). The same maintenance job now takes 2 hours with 6x10 minute gaps between trains. The maintenance team is now 50% less productive than it was before the new safety policy brought in by NR senior management.

Do you now understand?
NR is making the signaller do more work and the maintenance spend more time doing nothing and waiting to get on track. The lack of productivity of maintenance is nothing to do with maintenance.

NR are having to because the ORR told them to.

 

[2021_Signaller]

NR are having to because the ORR told them to.

Well, the rights and wrongs of it is academic. We have NR and government saying maintenance is unproductive and therefore needs to be cut. You're making them unproductive! It's all lies from top to bottom. Our senior management are a disgrace.

 

[TheBigD]

I'm sure it helped to vent that lol - and I accept there are exceptional circumstances.

Except they aren't exceptional circumstances. It is now the norm.

Red zone working has now gone (largely) the way of the dinosaur. If you want to go on the track, you need, at a minimum, a line blockage.

If you also require TCOD or detonator protection then you need a decent gap in the service. Stuff that was a 10 minute job is now taking 60 minutes plus as you try to fit them in around the train service.

Add to that, due to signaller workload, some panels have a limit on the number of line blockages allowed, and some panels a blanket ban on line blockages for everything except emergencies, again due to workload.

Unless Network Rail are going to have gaps in the service, like the French high speed lines, then something has got to change to get back to doing 10 minute jobs in 10 minutes.

 

[TwoYellas]

What part of that are you accusing of being "twaddle"?

The whole line of questioning, the usual way to undermine anyone doing anything good. Call them a Marxist or Commie; the usual twaddle.

The amazing thing is millions buy the nonsense spouted by these media yes men and therefore act against their own best interests.

 

[nedchester]

This tweet has amused me for some reason……

https://twitter.com/rmtunion/status/1539685162228846593?s=21&t=x_d8kpOFFoXscIzwRvvPUA

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Our senior management are a disgrace.

Well I hope for your sake that your senior management are not reading this forum...

 

[2021_Signaller]

Well I hope for your sake that your senior management are not reading this forum...

They'll be too busy having champagne and caviar at the DFT thinking they're going to turn us over on the cheap. We won't buckle

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

No, actually you have yet again. Let me explain how this works. The maintenance can't get on the track to do their job - jobs that cannot be replaced by tech - due to the safety requirements which are now so onerous they now take an age for the signaller and the techs to agree.

For example, let's say the techs wanted to get on the track to do some maintenance on the AWS. It might only be a 30 minute job. Maybe I have gaps of 10 minutes between trains and previously 3X10minute gaps means that the total job will take one hour to complete.

If it now takes an extra 5 minutes to grant and give up the line block because of the placement of TCODs (now being introduced). The same maintenance job now takes 2 hours with 6x10 minute gaps between trains. The maintenance team is now 50% less productive than it was before the new safety policy brought in by NR senior management.

Do you now understand?
NR is making the signaller do more work and the maintenance spend more time doing nothing and waiting to get on track. The lack of productivity of maintenance is nothing to do with maintenance.

absolutely correct

 

[colchesterken]

Sorry if this has been covered I have not read all 107 pages!
Grant Shapps said on the Sunday politics round that many old fashioned practices needed to be changed. He said if a worker is on a break and the manager says "good morning" they have to restart their break , is that correct and any other examples please

 

[matacaster]

God only knows what you've been splashing the cash on throughout your life if you've managed a pension pot worth £40k a year, but didn't bother playing a mortgage!

I agreed with all you said.... until that last sentence. Maybe I have misunderstood, surely you don't mean that healthy pensioners should be made to continue working; Until when, they are too infirm to continue

No not made to but encouraged to not simply sit at home. Even at 66 people on average have a reasonably long life left.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

https://twitter.com/RMTunion

they have a live feed running from ITV Peston for later

Lynch again very articulate says he knows we have to modernise and they will work with mgt to do so once they offer a fair pay rise and remove compulsory redundancy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail have always valued ticket offices over on-board staff. As a Guard myself I never did understand the resistance for Guards to do revenue as almost every other TOC expects it.

Because it's easier doing "doors open, doors close, ding ding, read the Mirror*" than doing any more work? That said the stations are very, very close together, so absent driver door control (at least driver open) it would result in delays.

* Obviously not the Sun in Liverpool.

which is one reason why TPE conductors want payments for scanning. It was offered as part of productivity two years ago so why is it such a sore subject now? If anything it would encourage more comsistent ticket checking

I would favour that on the south WCML, then it might look a bit less DOO than it does now.

 

[Bald Rick]

No, actually you have yet again. Let me explain how this works. The maintenance can't get on the track to do their job - jobs that cannot be replaced by tech - due to the safety requirements which are now so onerous they now take an age for the signaller and the techs to agree.

For example, let's say the techs wanted to get on the track to do some maintenance on the AWS. It might only be a 30 minute job. Maybe I have gaps of 10 minutes between trains and previously 3X10minute gaps means that the total job will take one hour to complete.

If it now takes an extra 5 minutes to grant and give up the line block because of the placement of TCODs (now being introduced). The same maintenance job now takes 2 hours with 6x10 minute gaps between trains. The maintenance team is now 50% less productive than it was before the new safety policy brought in by NR senior management.

Do you now understand?
NR is making the signaller do more work and the maintenance spend more time doing nothing and waiting to get on track. The lack of productivity of maintenance is nothing to do with maintenance.

but in that example (of many thousands of other examples), the choice is therefore to either put a 30 mimute gap in the service to fix it, or if it is not critical, leave it to be fixed overnight.

And, also, to send the right number of people to do the job (in this case, two), and not three.

They'll be too busy having champagne and caviar at the DFT thinking they're going to turn us over on the cheap. We won't buckle

you don’t even get a cup of tea at the DfT, let alone a biscuit.

 

[HL7]

Sorry if this has been covered I have not read all 107 pages!
Grant Shapps said on the Sunday politics round that many old fashioned practices needed to be changed. He said if a worker is on a break and the manager says "good morning" they have to restart their break , is that correct and any other examples please

It’s rubbish, i’ve worked on the railway for 20 years and i’ve never saw anyone even attempt to claim a spoiled PnB due to someone exchanging pleasantries with them. It’s that ludicrous i’ve never even heard of it being passed around as an urban legend before these strikes.

 

[Hellzapoppin]

And take the 3rd men, who were probably used as lookouts, put them into a resource pool to be used as and when required.

 

[HST274]

I understand the premise of starting late on non strike days, but not entirely sure about the detail. Is the early morning shift one that starts in the day before? Or is time up to like 0400 considered part of the previous day?

 

[WiredUp]

Sorry if this has been covered I have not read all 107 pages!
Grant Shapps said on the Sunday politics round that many old fashioned practices needed to be changed. He said if a worker is on a break and the manager says "good morning" they have to restart their break , is that correct and any other examples please

Already answered earlier I appreciate, but after quite a few years in the industry working around the country with colleagues from all walks of the industry it's bxllocks.

The worse (IMO) a TU member has done when I have been around is tried to walk off site during an admittedly (very long) over-running possession. Of all of the other ones I have worked with they have been flexible - and for every long shift - know that they will have a quieter one around the corner at some point.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

but in that example (of many thousands of other examples), the choice is therefore to either put a 30 mimute gap in the service to fix it, or if it is not critical, leave it to be fixed overnight.

And, also, to send the right number of people to do the job (in this case, two), and not three.




you don’t even get a cup of tea at the DfT, let alone a biscuit.

Certainly not a sandwich lunch either......let alone s/wiches and beer in the company of ministers / PM's as supposedly happened in the 1970's.

 

[142blue]

Sorry if this has been covered I have not read all 107 pages!
Grant Shapps said on the Sunday politics round that many old fashioned practices needed to be changed. He said if a worker is on a break and the manager says "good morning" they have to restart their break , is that correct and any other examples please

Never known that in over 20 years.

If however I'm recalled to my duties then I am within my rights to restart my rest period. Not doing that to be awkward but as SC staff it covers my back. Like ensuring I get the correct rest periods between shifts.

 

[Djgr]

Yes, but it’s not the highest of priorities on the to do list.

A conductor might check tickets on a route once, but if they get paid (like northern) to scan them, it encourages them to do so more frequently. A huge benefit to the company preventing ticket fraud, and a huge amount of data collection for the company worth its gold in both marketing and passenger statistics.

Still sounds like wanting to be paid twice to do the job properly. Presumably you have never worked in the real world?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

but in that example (of many thousands of other examples), the choice is therefore to either put a 30 mimute gap in the service to fix it, or if it is not critical, leave it to be fixed overnight.

And, also, to send the right number of people to do the job (in this case, two), and not three.

Indeed but the railway has become very difficult to access largely for good reason but with that comes added cost of responding to faults and maintaining the infrastructure. The creeping changes to safety requirements has been an increasing burden on running the industry for years but that was provided for in the control period settlements. Seems clear DfT are now baulking at the direct costs of supporting NR as well as the operators and I certainly accept that all savings shouldn't fall on the operators but this should be an 18-24mth programme to make changes rather than provoking confrontation just when the industry was showing some recovery. Whatever they are saving on not paying RMT workers will not be covered by all the costs of non shrieking employees along with reduced revenue and additional costs to deal with loss of possessions let alone the long run impact.

 

[2021_Signaller]

but in that example (of many thousands of other examples), the choice is therefore to either put a 30 mimute gap in the service to fix it, or if it is not critical, leave it to be fixed overnight.

And, also, to send the right number of people to do the job (in this case, two), and not three.




you don’t even get a cup of tea at the DfT, let alone a biscuit.

This is why the 'modernisation' is massively counterproductive. What you are suggesting has huge consequences for signaller workload, as I've said before to you, and none of that is positive. Leaving the signaller to deal with issues until the last train is a recipe for disaster. 12 hours degraded working. If the signaller doesn't stop the job - things will start going wrong very quickly.

This is why this dispute is so critical and why we must stay the course and win. It affects everyone. If the signaller has a huge workload, the trains will be buggered. So much for helping passengers and the bottom line...

 

[Horizon22]

from the same panel?


Merseyrail have always valued ticket offices over on-board staff. As a Guard myself I never did understand the resistance for Guards to do revenue as almost every other TOC expects it.

Those services weren’t from the same panel? Not even the same route.

 

[HL7]

Already answered earlier I appreciate, but after quite a few years in the industry working around the country with colleagues from all walks of the industry it's bxllocks.

The worse (IMO) a TU member has done when I have been around is tried to walk off site during an admittedly (very long) over-running possession. Of all of the other ones I have worked with they have been flexible - and for every long shift - know that they will have a quieter one around the corner at some point.

IME of engineering worksites, the access points and PnB facilities could be miles from the actual worksite itself. Staff had bags with sandwiches and drinks and took very limited breaks at the trackside, and had bog roll in their pockets in case nature called and headed for the nearest point out of site to relieve themselves.

The idea that maintenance workers lead some sort of charmed life is more lies to paint railway workers in a poor light. They already work some of the most unsociable hours and in the most inhospitable environments in the workplace.

 

[2021_Signaller]

I understand the premise of starting late on non strike days, but not entirely sure about the detail. Is the early morning shift one that starts in the day before? Or is time up to like 0400 considered part of the previous day?

Probably depends on the local arrangements. In general 0000-0700 is worked by the signaller that started work in the evening of the day previous. So trains will only begin to move the day after strike days from 0700 when the new signaller starts, and that is why there is no service still for several hours after that.

 

[WiredUp]

IME of engineering worksites, the access points and PnB facilities could be miles from the actual worksite itself. Staff had bags with sandwiches and drinks and took very limited breaks at the trackside, and had bog roll in their pockets in case nature called and headed for the nearest point out of site to relieve themselves.

The idea that maintenance workers lead some sort of charmed life is more lies to paint railway workers in a poor light. They already work some of the most unsociable hours and in the most inhospitable environments in the workplace.

Yes the 'welfare facility' tended to be something behind a tree/LOC etc out of sight of prying eyes... That was before the days of the Garic van - still also parked miles away....