Scotrail mixing 158 & 170 on the same set?

[Deltic1961]

07.03 from Inverness to Aberdeen today had two 158s on the front and three 170s behind. When I saw it was 5 cars I assumed HST but it wasn't.

Is it a usual occurrence to mix different classes on the same set as I've never seen that before?

 

[Christmas]

That happens all over the ScotRail network every day as long as the couplers are compatible. So you'll see 170s coupled to both 158s and 156s, even 153s for empty coaching stock.
I once saw a 170 and 156 making up a Queen Street to Aberdeen but I'm guessing that the 156 may have been removed at Perth as I don't believe they're permitted to go further north.

318s and 320s often work together in SPT land.

 

[hexagon789]

07.03 from Inverness to Aberdeen today had two 158s on the front and three 170s behind. When I saw it was 5 cars I assumed HST but it wasn't.

Is it a usual occurrence to mix different classes on the same set as I've never seen that before?View attachment 117958

Extremely, it's been done regularly since 1999!

But yes in general, for example the 0941 Glasgow QS-Aberdeen was booked 170+158 during the timetable reductions.

The 1010 Glasgow QS-Inverness has been a 170+158 a few times.

In the past I've had a Dunblane-Glasgow as a 158+170 combo; the early morning Aberdeen-Glasgow used to be a 158+170 combo, they detached at Queen Street with the 158 going to Anniesland and the 170 to Dunblane.

Today, there are at least three such sets out -

One as mentioned on Inverness/Aberdeen, plus one on Edinburgh/Perth and one on Edinburgh/Fife

I once saw a 170 and 156 making up a Queen Street to Aberdeen but I'm guessing that the 156 may have been removed at Perth as I don't believe they're permitted to go further north.

More likely nobody signs then that signs the road to Aberdeen.

They have run to Inverness and Aberdeen in the past, indeed for the whole summer of 1990 (due to late delivery of 158s) Glasgow-Aberdeen was exclusively 156s except one peak hour loco-hauled and some use of 150/2s as strengtheners.

 

[Royston Vasey]

If a 170+158 combination is surprising, then you should have seen some of the Pacer-Sprinter lash-ups Northern used to put together in the North West, 142 to 158 and everything, quite literally, in between!

 

[Deltic1961]

On the 11.56 back and normal service has been resumed. Crammed roasting hot 2 car 158. Its also been held back 9 minutes as the Edinburgh one coming in is running late, which they say they never do.

No constancy whatsoever.

 

[hexagon789]

On the 11.56 back and normal service has been resumed. Crammed roasting hot 2 car 158. Its also been held back 9 minutes as the Edinburgh one coming in is running late, which they say they never do.

No constancy whatsoever.

The 0703 splits, the 170 returns as the 1010 to Inverness, the 158 works a Montrose stopper.

The 0703 is effectively a stock move in that respect, bringing over an extra unit from Inverness depot but as a passenger service.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

If a 170+158 combination is surprising, then you should have seen some of the Pacer-Sprinter lash-ups Northern used to put together in the North West, 142 to 158 and everything, quite literally, in between!

Yes I saw that and have travelled on one a few times on the SCR, 2 carriages Sprinter/158 and 3 carriages of Pacer.

 

[ld0595]

I'm sure at one point in 2016 or so that there was an early service from Dundee to Inverness made up of a 170 and two 158s. One of the 158s dropped off at Carnoustie (?) to run the early morning service to Golf Street, Barry Links etc, another 158 then dropped off near Aberdeen to operate a local service there.

 

[XAM2175]

07.03 from Inverness to Aberdeen today had two 158s on the front and three 170s behind. When I saw it was 5 cars I assumed HST but it wasn't.

I only see one 170 and one 158 in that screenshot

 

[computerSaysNo]

The evening peak departure from Aberdeen going west used to be 7 coaches as 170+158+158. That formation worked as far as Inverurie whereupon the rear 158 was detached as, at the time, platforms further west were limited to 5 coaches.

 

[CR165022]

Different class mashups are fairly common, albeit maybe not in Scotland, a few I can think of is GWR 150/158s, different sprinters on tfw and 165/168s on Chiltern

 

[Ken H]

During the 'trains disappearing from signalling panels' in early sprinter days they made up 156/158 2 car hybrid sets.
Made me think. Could you join 170 and 158 driving cars to make a hybrid set?

 

[hexagon789]

Different class mashups are fairly common, albeit maybe not in Scotland, a few I can think of is GWR 150/158s, different sprinters on tfw and 165/168s on Chiltern

Anything from 150-159 plus 170-172 inclusive can multi, so where drivers sign and depots maintain different classes within that range presumably it makes for good operational practice to make good use of the capability when necessary.

Certainly Northern have always made good use of it - Random Unit Generator for the win!

 

[43096]

Anything from 142-172 inclusive can multi, so where drivers sign and depots maintain different classes within that range presumably it makes for good operational practice to make good use of the capability when necessary.

165/166/168 can multi with each other*, but not with the rest of the 142-170/172 series due to a different pin arrangement on the couplers
171 can multi only within class as they have Dellner couplers.

* In practice it is 165/1 and 166 multi, and 165/0 with 168.

There are now various restrictions on what can multi in passenger service depending on types of PIS fitted and their compatibility.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Anything from 142-172 inclusive can multi, so where drivers sign and depots maintain different classes within that range presumably it makes for good operational practice to make good use of the capability when necessary.

Certainly Northern have always made good use of it - Random Unit Generator for the win!

16x can only couple within that group, and to 172/1s, not sure if the latter is still possible.

 

[Ashley Hill]

SWT occasionally tagged a 170 onto a 159 for a trip on the mule.

 

[CR165022]

16x can only couple within that group, and to 172/1s, not sure if the latter is still possible.

the 172/1s cant couple to 16x now, they needed to be changed when going to wmr so that they could work with the other 172s, along with 15x or other 17x if needed

 

[Tynwald]

I only see one 170 and one 158 in that screenshot

All 14X and 15x and 170 are used to be multi compatiible. 175 & 180 used to be and did.

 

[DanNCL]

All 14X and 15x and 170 are used to be multi compatiible. 175 & 180 used to be and did.

14x and 17x are not compatible. However both are compatible with 15x

 

[Razorblades]

Yes I saw that and have travelled on one a few times on the SCR, 2 carriages Sprinter/158 and 3 carriages of Pacer.

Pacers, on the Scottish Region?

 

[_toommm_]

14x and 17x are not compatible. However both are compatible with 15x

Weren’t they allowed only for ECS moves?

 

[CR165022]

voyagers and 390s are compatible iirc, along with 171s and electrostars

 

[hexagon789]

16x can only couple within that group, and to 172/1s, not sure if the latter is still possible.

Damn, I always forget about the 165/166 - probably because I never see/hear/ride the damn' things!

I'll go back and fix that.

Pacers, on the Scottish Region?

Occasionally in recent-ish years on Carlisle-Dumfries I'm given to understand, personally I've never seen it.

Historically, a triple 142 was used on opening day of the Bathgate line in 1986 and for a period after while the 150/2s were commissioned.

 

[craigybagel]

Weren’t they allowed only for ECS moves?

It was specifically barred at my own TOC anyway, even in emergencies. I've never signed either fleet myself but ISTR if you try it tends to set the fire bells off?

 

[Nova1]

London Midland (and then West Midlands Railway for a bit) used to run peak 172+150 services. That was very odd as basically everyone crammed into the 172.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

voyagers and 390s are compatible iirc

In emergencies only. Mechanically compatible, not electronically compatible.

 

[fgwrich]

London Midland (and then West Midlands Railway for a bit) used to run peak 172+150 services. That was very odd as basically everyone crammed into the 172.

They certainly had a few 172 + 153 services. The poor Dogbox on the back sounded horrible thanks to the 172 transmission set up (high revving to cycle through the mechanical gearbox).

 

[Clansman]

I once saw a 170 and 156 making up a Queen Street to Aberdeen but I'm guessing that the 156 may have been removed at Perth as I don't believe they're permitted to go further north.

Can imagine that must have been a while ago since the last regular 156 diagram to Perth was in 2006!

 

[hexagon789]

165/166/168 can multi with each other*, but not with the rest of the 142-170/172 series due to a different pin arrangement on the couplers
171 can multi only within class as they have Dellner couplers.

* In practice it is 165/1 and 166 multi, and 165/0 with 168.

There are now various restrictions on what can multi in passenger service depending on types of PIS fitted and their compatibility.

I know, my apologies, I forgot to add an exemption when I posted.

They certainly had a few 172 + 153 services. The poor Dogbox on the back sounded horrible thanks to the 172 transmission set up (high revving to cycle through the mechanical gearbox).

I dont believe it should make any difference to the 153, as the multiple working affects the power level selected not the state of the transmission.

I.e. if the driver adopts the common 0-3-5-7 method, then both 172 and 153 will respond in kind.

The 172 transmission will change up as usual and the 153 will progress from torque converter to fluid coupling as usual as well.

 

[driverd]

Weren’t they allowed only for ECS moves?

No, only none electrically coupled at 5mph. It was something to do with the circuits and what pins they connected to in the couplers electrical box.

The 170s are strange in that regard as they are rather like a sprinter+, so they pass across oddities when coupled. Such examples include flashing train/unit lights in a class 150 (these would indicate a gearbox fault, typically during wheel slip/slide or a TCA fault, but are either on or off, not flashing), as they pair to a set of lights in the 170 that indicate a train fault or train healthy - the 170 has differing levels of fault, so a flashing train fault could be something like the gear box turning over etc - which passes as something very different to the 150. Equally, paired with a 153, I managed to get a hustle alarm (door closing sound) that wouldn't turn off on the 153 the second they coupled.

Rather off topic however, so to steer back on - yes, multi-working with different types of older unit is rather common.