How does the lack of direct train services between large towns in Northern England compare with the South?

[LNW-GW Joint]

What is undoubtedly true is that the rail network was reduced markedly less in the south-east than in other regions in the Beeching contractions and later.
Connectivity was severely reduced in the north, the west, rural East Anglia, Wales and Scotland, but not in the home counties.
One of the few SE closures was the Maidenhead-High Wycombe line north of Bourne End - I suspect even that is much regretted now.

 

[ivorytoast28]

Anecdotal of course but having lived in both the north and south, I found trains in the north far better for getting between different towns. In the south everything just went to London which made it too expensive to travel anywhere by train when it's commuter prices both in and out of London again

 

[paul1609]

What is undoubtedly true is that the rail network was reduced markedly less in the south-east than in other regions in the Beeching contractions and later.
Connectivity was severely reduced in the north, the west, rural East Anglia, Wales and Scotland, but not in the home counties.
One of the few SE closures was the Maidenhead-High Wycombe line north of Bourne End - I suspect even that is much regretted now.

I don't think that's entirely true the rail networks of Sussex and Hampshire were devestated by the closures.

 

[The exile]

Orbital travel by train (without going into London and out again) is, with very few Exceptions almost impossible in a wide arc from the GWML round to the ECML until you get about 100 miles out. Assuming it ever gets built EWR will change that of course, but still leave massive gaps.

 

[Route115?]

Parts of the Southern Region are reasonably good for services between towns outside London but services in the former NSE area north of London can be very poor in places requiring a trip into and out of London. Stopping patterns could certainly be better in places.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

One of the few SE closures was the Maidenhead-High Wycombe line north of Bourne End - I suspect even that is much regretted now.

It will be regretted in a few years time when both East-West Rail and the Princes Risborough/Aylesbury/Bletchley link are up and running. A through route from Maidenhead to Milton Keynes via High Wycombe will seem very attractive to many people.

 

[JonathanH]

A through route from Maidenhead to Milton Keynes via High Wycombe will seem very attractive to many people.

Hopelessly uncompetitive time wise though.

 

[route101]

Always thought that there could be a service a few times a day between Southampton and Exeter

 

[paul1609]

Always thought that there could be a service a few times a day between Southampton and Exeter

The Weekend Brighton to Exeter trains used to load very well but they didn't suit the railway operationally so they were made less and less convient to drive the customers to road with lengthy reversals in Portsmouth, long timetabled 20 mins plus waits in loops outside St Denys where they were overtaken by nothing, long 20 min plus waits in the loop at Chard junction. I was in one train that run out of fuel at Romsey on a Sunday evening and it took hours to arrange taxis for 200 plus passengers bound for the West Country.

 

[bramling]

Journeys between many towns and cities on the north side of London are difficult by public transport, with no direct rail services.

For example Harlow-Chelmsford, Luton-Stevenage, Cambridge-Milton Keynes, Peterborough-Northampton.

I was going to make pretty much exactly the same point. East/west journeys north of London are impossible by rail without having to incur the significant extra time of going via London. I'm sure there's plenty more examples which could be added to the above list.

 

[Magdalia]

What is undoubtedly true is that the rail network was reduced markedly less in the south-east than in other regions in the Beeching contractions and later.
Connectivity was severely reduced in the north, the west, rural East Anglia, Wales and Scotland, but not in the home counties.
One of the few SE closures was the Maidenhead-High Wycombe line north of Bourne End - I suspect even that is much regretted now.

That's not true! There were many closures north of London that reduced connectivity, for example:

Princes Risborough-Thame-Oxford
Bletchley-Oxford
Welwyn-Luton-Leighton Buzzard
Bedford-Northampton
Bedford-Hitchin
Bedford-Sandy-Cambridge
Cambridge-St Ives-Huntingdon-Kettering
Peterborough-Wellingborough-Northampton
Peterborough-Market Harborough-Rugby
Bishops Stortford-Braintree
Cambridge-Haverhill-Sudbury

In particular, the ECML/MML are across the road from each other in London, but, going north, the first rail route linking the two is Peterborough-Leicester. Between London and Peterborough/Leicester six routes going east/west between the ECML and MML were closed.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Seaford to Haywards Heath is an example from the South. Years ago there used to be a Seaford to London Victoria service in the morning and a return service in the evening. Now, you have to change at Lewes whatever time you leave home. There is also no direct bus services. You would have to change buses in Brighton I believe to get to Haywards Heath which would take about 2.5 hours, yet you can drive from Seaford to Haywards Heath in an hour.

Not sure that you'd really expect an origin station on a relatively minor branch line to be connected to much more of the Southern network than it currently is. The journey by rail between Seaford and Haywards Heath can still usually be done in less than an hour and that includes the 15 minute interchange time at Lewes. Half hour frequency during the day also.

 

[30907]

Huddersfield to Wakefield Westgate had an hourly service and was well used by passengers changing for GNER/XC services.

...and then someone increased the Leeds-Huddersfield fast service from 1tph to 4 and Leeds-London from 1tph to 2 meaning that half the time you went via Leeds anyway, with predictable results.

 

[RobShipway]

Not sure that you'd really expect an origin station on a relatively minor branch line to be connected to much more of the Southern network than it currently is. The journey by rail between Seaford and Haywards Heath can still usually be done in less than an hour and that includes the 15 minute interchange time at Lewes. Half hour frequency during the day also.

It is still quicker by car from Seaford station to Haywards Heath.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Hopelessly uncompetitive time wise though.

Compared with what?

 

[zwk500]

It is still quicker by car from Seaford station to Haywards Heath.

But the only reason somebody from Seaford would want to drive to Haywards Heath is to catch the train (there being no other good reason to visit Haywards Heath), and driving then paying for parking is a significant downside against making a slightly longer journey without the need to drive.

 

[C J Snarzell]

Preston & Southport are two prominent places in the North West with no direct rail connection.

The two options to rail travellers are making the short walk between the two village stations at Burscough that are on separate lines, or travelling further afield to Wigan to connect via the two stations at opposite sides of Wallgate.

I believe Merseyside Metro Mayor Steve Rotherham unveiled a long term rail project a while back to look at restoring an abandoned section of track at Burscough that would provide direct services between Southport & Preston.

However, given the changing climate with Merseyrail/Merseytravel's ever changing agendas, the Burscough initiative will probably not see the light of day anytime soon.

CJ

 

[YorksLad12]

Huddersfield to Wakefield Westgate had an hourly service and was well used by passengers changing for GNER/XC services. The service was then cut back to Wakefield Kirkgate which rendered the service useless due to the layout there. Huddersfield passengers now have to change at Leeds and use the overbridge. Lack of passengers to Kirkgate gave Northern the excuse to withdraw the service.

Slightly more complex than that because...

...and then someone increased the Leeds-Huddersfield fast service from 1tph to 4 and Leeds-London from 1tph to 2 meaning that half the time you went via Leeds anyway, with predictable results.

... so the connection to Westgate wasn't as useful (and had to cross the station, then get out of the way of other services, which wasn't easy). So the path was allocated to the Knottingley-Kirkgate service, to extend it to Leeds from Westgate.

Huddersfield-Kirkgate was sensibly extended to Castleford, giving Normaton an extra service per hour (but unsensibly timed 7 minutes away from the other service). That really does need to come back as there's no comparably fast bus route between Huddersfield and Wakefield. But the DfT don't want to pay Northern to run it, even if the crew and units were available.

As for Bradford-Halifax-Huddersfield - I caught it one Friday afternoon, years ago, and was spoilt for seating choice. It's faster than the bus but takes a winding route, and has to be flighted between existing Calder Valley and Huddersfield line services. I don't know what the new Mass Transit plans are like but they might offer a better solution, if they take people where they want to go rather than stopping out of town.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

But the only reason somebody from Seaford would want to drive to Haywards Heath is to catch the train (there being no other good reason to visit Haywards Heath), and driving then paying for parking is a significant downside against making a slightly longer journey without the need to drive.

Really? Might possibly be travelling there for work reasons. A fair number of employers in the town.

 

[bramling]

Isn't the M25 for trains there already though in the form of the lines used by London Overground trains?

Not really. It's useful for people living in north London (albeit changing from the Midland involves a nasty walk along the street at West Hampstead, and reaching it from the Euston lines means having to take the all-stations Euston/Watford service). But it's of no practical use for people living further out. Any journey like Stevenage to St Albans is going to mean a trip all the way into London and back out again, with a realistic journey time of well over an hour, and of course quite a hefty fare.

 

[Magdalia]

changing from the Midland involves a nasty walk along the street at West Hampstead

I do this quite frequently, and I would not describe it as nasty. There is only one not very busy road to cross. Both stations have been improved considerably in recent years, including installation of lifts.

At least it is possible to do the interchange, which isn't available with either the ECML or the GWML.

Any journey like Stevenage to St Albans is going to mean a trip all the way into London and back out again, with a realistic journey time of well over an hour, and of course quite a hefty fare.

Indeed. Cambridge to Luton is more expensive than Cambridge to Brighton.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Slightly more complex than that because...

... so the connection to Westgate wasn't as useful (and had to cross the station, then get out of the way of other services, which wasn't easy). So the path was allocated to the Knottingley-Kirkgate service, to extend it to Leeds from Westgate.

Huddersfield-Kirkgate was sensibly extended to Castleford, giving Normaton an extra service per hour (but unsensibly timed 7 minutes away from the other service). That really does need to come back as there's no comparably fast bus route between Huddersfield and Wakefield. But the DfT don't want to pay Northern to run it, even if the crew and units were available.

As for Bradford-Halifax-Huddersfield - I caught it one Friday afternoon, years ago, and was spoilt for seating choice. It's faster than the bus but takes a winding route, and has to be flighted between existing Calder Valley and Huddersfield line services. I don't know what the new Mass Transit plans are like but they might offer a better solution, if they take people where they want to go rather than stopping out of town.

One of the problems with the current post-Covid situation, is that if you still choose to go by train you're more likely to need to go via Leeds... which comes at a premium. It would be nice if a bit of consideration was given to the admittedly small numbers of Huddersfield to Castleford passengers who have to pay the higher fare via Leeds even though they don't leave the station. Of course an easement would be exploited by Leeds passengers who would ask to be let through the gates "to go to WHSmiths" and simply walk out.
At least changing at Leeds for Wakefield makes sense geographically. Going from Huddersfield to Halifax via Leeds would be utterly daft, even though it's probably quicker than waiting nearly two hours if you've just missed the direct service. It's not like there's another option though- changing at Mirfield is doable if you happen to coincide with a Grand Central service I suppose, but otherwise it's a change at Mirfield and Sowerby Bridge, which I'm not certain is even a permitted route.

 

[AM9]

I do this quite frequently, and I would not describe it as nasty. There is only one not very busy road to cross. Both stations have been improved considerably in recent years, including installation of lifts.

At least it is possible to do the interchange, which isn't available with either the ECML or the GWML.

Yes, it's one of the easiest OSIs in London. From the TL gateline to the LO gateline is just under 140m and that includes taking the corrwect line across Iverson Road pedestrian crossing. Similarly from TL to West Hampstead LU station is only 230m between the LU and TL gatelines using the pedestrian crossing outside the LO station correctly. That's shorter than the length of a 12-car class 700. That is less than the 275m from the nearest point on the Waterloo gateline to the nearest platform of Waterloo East
The area is not really nasty, it is bustling but I've never felt threatened or even uncomfortable there after dark.

 

[Bantamzen]

What point are you trying to make here?

From where I am there are no direct trains from Mk to Bedford. That is a 25/30 minute drive

MK to Luton is three trains for a 30 minute drive

Until E-W opens anything Oxford/Bicester way is a trip via Brum or London

MK to Cambridge is a massive ball ache via London but a direct run un the car of less than an hour ( on a good day)

I think one point is that these routes both used to have hourly services, but like a lot of routes around here have seen significant reductions in the last year or so, with no firm commitment to reinstate them. Given the "levelling up" messaging that has been coming from the government it kind of leaves a sour taste in the mouth.

 

[Intercity110]

northampton to literally anywhere else in northamptonshire

 

[Nova1]

There’s a handful of south Warwickshire examples…
Leamington Spa -> Worcester requires going via Birmingham

Stratford-Upon-Avon to Reddich, 16 miles 30 minutes by car but two hours on a train via Birmingham!

Even Stratford-Upon-Avon to Coventry is a pain, requiring on some days a change at Hatton/Warwick, and at Leamington Spa and the connection times are terrible

 

[Ken H]

northampton to literally anywhere else in northamptonshire

MK and Northampton to leicester, Loughborough, Nottingham, Derby. People just use the M1.

 

[DarloRich]

Given the "levelling up" messaging that has been coming from the government it kind of leaves a sour taste in the mouth.

fairly certain levelling up ( as badly defined as it is) is about a bit more to most people than hourly services between two non descript northern towns/cities!

it is supposed to be about a systemic transfer of wealth and opportunity to the barren north/ marginal Tory constituencies!

 

[The exile]

I think one point is that these routes both used to have hourly services, but like a lot of routes around here have seen significant reductions in the last year or so, with no firm commitment to reinstate them. Given the "levelling up" messaging that has been coming from the government it kind of leaves a sour taste in the mouth.

I suppose one of the significant differences is that in the more densely populated “North” the remaining rail network is more complex than in most of the South (other than London and the arc round from the Thames to roughly the Mid Sussex Line) - s the lack of through services on that network is more obviously resolvable (and thus frustrating) than where no physical connection has actually existed for 60-odd years.

 

[matacaster]

One of the problems with the current post-Covid situation, is that if you still choose to go by train you're more likely to need to go via Leeds... which comes at a premium. It would be nice if a bit of consideration was given to the admittedly small numbers of Huddersfield to Castleford passengers who have to pay the higher fare via Leeds even though they don't leave the station. Of course an easement would be exploited by Leeds passengers who would ask to be let through the gates "to go to WHSmiths" and simply walk out.
At least changing at Leeds for Wakefield makes sense geographically. Going from Huddersfield to Halifax via Leeds would be utterly daft, even though it's probably quicker than waiting nearly two hours if you've just missed the direct service. It's not like there's another option though- changing at Mirfield is doable if you happen to coincide with a Grand Central service I suppose, but otherwise it's a change at Mirfield and Sowerby Bridge, which I'm not certain is even a permitted route.

Agreed.