Shops & other venues that still insist on masks.

[yorkie]

So do I; so I could argue that your own experiences are atypical.

You can but where is your evidence and who is backing your position up? Can you point to any posts at the time where people reported loads of voluntary mask wearers?

How do you explain this:

Interesting weekend. Felt like normality. Food out last night followed by pub then snooker today All were busy with no masks.. Other pubs and restaurants busy.. That was a lot of people choosing not to wear one.

My best guess is that the mask fad will be dropped after schools successfully return without them.

(from August 2020, before anyone was vaccinated)

Where is your counter evidence?

I think the main conclusion behind this argument though is that we need to move away from this notion that people only went along with things such as face coverings because of coercion or being forced - it isn't as simple as that for the reasons I've mentioned. If you want to rant about genuine authoritarianism and coercision forcing the public into doing something without any altruistic reasons then go and live in China!

You've got it the wrong way round; it is those who approve of mandates who should go live in China.

But forcing people in this country to do something without any good reason is precisely what the government and scientists did.

Indeed, and until then people didn't wear masks, with very few exceptions.

And like I say you can't be completely sure that there wasn't good reason.

And you have no evidence that there was.

The government and scientists probably thought like this; I've no doubt they were skeptical about how effective masks would be but they probably went along with the WHO advice in the hope/half expectation that masks would offer partial protection.

Yes they went along with whatever the WHO said, despite previously admitting masks were no use.

Don't forget it was a new virus so they were in the dark a bit about how the transmission of the virus would work and subsequently how effective or not face masks would be.

This is nonsense; it transmits the same way as other respiratory viruses and mask mandates were ruled out for 'flu epidemics.

No, simply the case that my experiences/observations were different to yours.

And almost everyone else; not just now but based on observational reports made at the time.

Around here, you saw the odd person wearing a mask from February 2020 but they were few and far between and really stood out.

I agree that usage did gradually increase, but it increased from nobody to very few until the government mandated them.

Spot on.

Don't forget that in some Asian countries it has been normal custom for many years for someone who is feeling under the weather to wear a mask when, for example, travelling on public transport. I'm not saying this is indicative of masks being medically effective, but it shows that people can decide for themselves about the subject without being forced to by law - as it isn't a law in Japan or Malaysia to wear a mask when ill, people do it to protect others and to an extent out of a sense of courtesy and duty. Is it not just possible that some people here have been thinking along the same lines, rather than just doing it because of government coercion?

You think Japan has got rid of the virus by mass mask wearing, right?

This is what I don't agree with, that it always seems to come back to coercion instead of people thinking and deciding for themselves for altruistic reasons.

Because the reality is hardly anyone wore a mask until they were coerced. The idea that it is altruistic to wear a mask is just your opinion and not one widely shared by the public. If it was, people would have worn masks long before it was mandated (it wasn't mandated in hospitality until around 6 months after lockdown after all!) and would continue to do so today.

It was picked up on because the pandemic was starting and there was a lot of uncertainty and fear, so people were looking for ways to protect themselves and/or others.

When the pandemic was starting, correct advice was given by Government about masks at that time (this later changed due to WHO meddling) and hardly anyone wore them at that time.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Don't forget that in some Asian countries it has been normal custom for many years for someone who is feeling under the weather to wear a mask when, for example, travelling on public transport. I'm not saying this is indicative of masks being medically effective, but it shows that people can decide for themselves about the subject without being forced to by law - as it isn't a law in Japan or Malaysia to wear a mask when ill, people do it to protect others and to an extent out of a sense of courtesy and duty. Is it not just possible that some people here have been thinking along the same lines, rather than just doing it because of government coercion?

Or it could be horrendous real life evidence of a terrible work at all costs culture that sees some of the highest suicide rates in the world? Oh no not that it’s not covid related can’t be that

Facepalm

 

[43094]

To my surprise, the Northern 195 I travelled on yesterday played the recorded announcement starting with ‘you must wear a face covering on board this service’.

 

[DustyBin]

Or it could be horrendous real life evidence of a terrible work at all costs culture that sees some of the highest suicide rates in the world? Oh no not that it’s not covid related can’t be that

Facepalm

Absolutely, and it really isn’t something we should aspire to.

 

[Philip]

Absolutely, and it really isn’t something we should aspire to.

Our own country's culture is often nothing to shout about - drunken loutish behaviour seemingly on the rise and an increasing lack of respect for others. Not to mention the toilet roll disgrace at the start of the pandemic and what it signified. We can learn a lot from Japanese and Malaysian culture when it comes to respect for others and general good behaviour. (And for the record I'm not equating this to wearing face coverings, rather just in general)

 

[Eyersey468]

Our own country's culture is often nothing to shout about - drunken loutish behaviour seemingly on the rise and an increasing lack of respect for others. Not to mention the toilet roll disgrace at the start of the pandemic and what it signified. We can learn a lot from Japanese and Malaysian culture when it comes to respect for others and general good behaviour. (And for the record I'm not equating this to wearing face coverings, rather just in general)

I agree with you about the amount of drunken loutish behaviour that seems to go on and the shameful way some people hoard things thanks to the media creating a panic.

 

[DustyBin]

Our own country's culture is often nothing to shout about - drunken loutish behaviour seemingly on the rise and an increasing lack of respect for others. Not to mention the toilet roll disgrace at the start of the pandemic and what it signified. We can learn a lot from Japanese and Malaysian culture when it comes to respect for others and general good behaviour. (And for the record I'm not equating this to wearing face coverings, rather just in general)

I wouldn’t disagree with you on this particular point!

 

[Bikeman78]

To my surprise, the Northern 195 I travelled on yesterday played the recorded announcement starting with ‘you must wear a face covering on board this service’.

I think they have simply forgotten to tweak the software that drives the announcements. Hopefully the depot has a tick list of units that have been done, but who knows. Most of the class 317s had the Covid stuff taken off but the odd one retained it right to the end. C2C still had very shouty announcements regarding Covid in February. Have they finally been taken off?

 

[duncanp]

Or it could be horrendous real life evidence of a terrible work at all costs culture that sees some of the highest suicide rates in the world? Oh no not that it’s not covid related can’t be that

Facepalm

This is the problem with many South East Asian nations.

Taking a day off sick is seen as being shameful, dishonourable, a sign of weakness and a hindrance to your career prospects.

Hence the propensity to wear face coverings as a matter of routine.

Whereas if someone is ill, it is better for them to stay at home, to avoid spreading any infection as much as possible and to minimise the total number of sick days taken off in any one company.

With modern technology, it should be possible to work from home for many people, thus enabling people to carry on working even whilst suffering from an infection.

Personally I think face coverings are a placebo that actually makes people complacent about the risk of infection.

They think it "..keeps them safe...", and therefore they don't need to think about other behaviours that might help/

 

[102 fan]

Our own country's culture is often nothing to shout about - drunken loutish behaviour seemingly on the rise and an increasing lack of respect for others. Not to mention the toilet roll disgrace at the start of the pandemic and what it signified. We can learn a lot from Japanese and Malaysian culture when it comes to respect for others and general good behaviour. (And for the record I'm not equating this to wearing face coverings, rather just in general)

My Great Uncle who fought in the Far East in WWII wouldn't agree with the concept of Japanese respect for others.

 

[gallafent]

Or it could be horrendous real life evidence of a terrible work at all costs culture that sees some of the highest suicide rates in the world?

It can't be evidence of that, since your assertion is false. Neither Japan nor Malaysia falls even into the top 25th percentile of countries by suicide rate. Japan is 49th, Malaysia is 130th, in a list of 183 countries, data from the World Health Organisation[1]. By way of comparison, USA is 31st, worse than Japan; the UK is 118th, worse than Malaysia.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

 

[VauxhallandI]

It can't be evidence of that, since your assertion is false. Neither Japan nor Malaysia falls even into the top 25th percentile of countries by suicide rate. Japan is 49th, Malaysia is 130th, in a list of 183 countries, data from the World Health Organisation[1]. By way of comparison, USA is 31st, worse than Japan; the UK is 118th, worse than Malaysia.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Why does Japan have such a high suicide rate? - BBC News

Rupert Wingfield-Hayes looks into what's behind Japan's high suicide statistics.

www.bbc.com

We can all find a supporting story in the web, Japans suicide rate three times higher than hours and probably far far worse as many go unrecorded

 

[gallafent]

We can all find a supporting story in the web

Or we can all find complete and reliable data sets. You did the former, I did the latter. Each to his own. There are 48 countries which have higher suicide rates than Japan. 129 that have higher suicide rates than Malaysia. I concluded that this means that neither has “some of the highest suicide rates in the world” — not in the top 10, not in the top 25, …………

 

[VauxhallandI]

Or we can all find complete and reliable data sets. You did the former, I did the latter. Each to his own. There are 48 countries which have higher suicide rates than Japan. 129 that have higher suicide rates than Malaysia. I concluded that this means that neither has “some of the highest suicide rates in the world” — not in the top 10, not in the top 25, …………

Semantics and nothing to do with the point.

Did you read the article and how it explained that the pressure on the workers to succeed is suspected as being a main factor which is leads us to the real reason the masks are worn in order not to be absent.

But no let’s concentrate on a league table for recorded suicides

 

[gallafent]

Semantics and nothing to do with the point.

Erm, OK.

Did you read the article and how it explained that the pressure on the workers to succeed is suspected as being a main factor which is leads us to the real reason the masks are worn in order not to be absent.

Sure. And didn't have any difficulty understanding that.

But no let’s concentrate on a league table for recorded suicides

I have not disputed anything in your post, except this:

ome of the highest suicide rates in the world

… which the numbers don't back up.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Erm, OK.

Sure. And didn't have any difficulty understanding that.

I have not disputed anything in your post, except this:

… which the numbers don't back up.

So what was the point of it then?

The article clearly talks of the hidden suicide so your precious point on the exact position or quartile for overall suicide rates is somewhat of a strange point to get so tetchy about. Takes all sorts I suppose

Where does Sir Statistics draw the line for one of the highest just so that if it crops up again in life I can make sure I don’t fall foul of your pedantry

 

[gallafent]

So what was the point of it then?

The point was to correct the false statement that Japan and Malaysia's suicide rates are "some of the highest suicide rates in the world". Not true for either country, really amazingly firmly not true for Malaysia!

The article clearly talks of the hidden suicide so your precious point on the exact position or quartile for overall suicide rates is somewhat of a strange point to get so tetchy about. Takes all sorts I suppose

Not exact position or quartile, just qualitatively being well below the "highest" — in fact, surely if, on your terms, Japan at 27th percentile is amongst the highest, then Malaysia must be amongst the lowest (71st percentile).

Regarding “hidden suicide”, then …

Quoting from the BBC article (my bold):

some experts think Japan's suicide rate is actually much higher than reported.

— a hypothesis, in an article whose thesis is that the numbers are high (making this statement useful to reinforce the article's story), and even then, all it can say is that it's an opinion which is not held by all of those with advanced knowledge of the field.

From the Wikipedia page with the data (my bold), quoting the WHO:

In much of the world, suicide is stigmatized and condemned for religious or cultural reasons. In some countries, suicidal behavior is a criminal offence punishable by law. Suicide is therefore often a secretive act surrounded by taboo, and may be unrecognized, misclassified or deliberately hidden in official records of death.

— so in the end, sure, there is certainly likely to be underreporting in Japan, but there is also likely to be underreporting in many other countries, meaning that the ordering in the table is likely to be less wrong than if it were a uniquely Japanese phenomenon.

Where does Sir Statistics draw the line for one of the highest just so that if it crops up again in life I can make sure I don’t fall foul of your pedantry

I like that name

Where do you? This is more important, since you are the one that used the term! So far I've already given examples which would work for me … top 10, top 25, I guess maybe I could add top 5 or 10 percentile, doesn't really matter, but "highest" suggests to me something more than "at the high end of the middle half", which is where Japan sits (or indeed “at the low end of the middle half” for Malaysia …)

Anyway, we've wandered wildly off-topic, happy to move to a new thread or leave it here!

(editing to avoid further derailing the thread, interesting comparison of total COVID-19 deaths, and of Excess Mortality, I picked UK, Japan, and Malaysia, but many other countries available for comparison: UK / JP / MY COVID-19 mortality data)

 

[VauxhallandI]

I wasn’t talking about Malaysia.

I’ve had enough of this common statement that everyone in Japan always wear masks anyway.

Because A it’s not true and B look where it got them.

X

 

[duncanp]

Sadiq just khan't drop his obsession with face nappies, can he.

Just been on a bus in London, and there was a recorded message saying "you must wear a face covering at all times when on public transport"

It is several months since the face nappy mandate was dropped in London, so there is no excuse for this message still to be there.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Welcome to my world, 16 times a day.

 

[greatkingrat]

Sadiq just khan't drop his obsession with face nappies, can he.

Just been on a bus in London, and there was a recorded message saying "you must wear a face covering at all times when on public transport"

It is several months since the face nappy mandate was dropped in London, so there is no excuse for this message still to be there.

Don't think it has much to do with Khan at this point, just whether the bus operator can be bothered to go through their fleet removing the announcements.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Oh it is when I wrote to TfL they quoted a biased survey from 2020 was the reasoning

 

[DustyBin]

Deleted - wrong thread!

 

[jumble]

Don't think it has much to do with Khan at this point, just whether the bus operator can be bothered to go through their fleet removing the announcements.

There are still plenty of posters on TFL busses saying this as well

 

[duncanp]

There are still plenty of posters on TFL busses saying this as well

Mr Khant could put pressure on the bus operators to remove out of date messaging if he really wanted to.

He is, after all, in overall charge at TfL, and whilst it is not his responsiblity to update the messaging, it is his responsibility to see that it gets done.

The fact that he hasn't done so means he is quite content for London bus passengers to be given false and misleading information.

Pleased to say that the vast majority of people on the two London buses I used today were giving Mr Khant the metaphorical two fingered salute and not wearing face nappies.

 

[Class 33]

Sadiq just khan't drop his obsession with face nappies, can he.

Just been on a bus in London, and there was a recorded message saying "you must wear a face covering at all times when on public transport"

It is several months since the face nappy mandate was dropped in London, so there is no excuse for this message still to be there.

I was passing through Hammersmith Underground station on Saturday, transferring from my FlixBus journey from Bristol to London St. Pancras station). When I entered there, I heard a loud PA announcement go off saying something along the lines of "You MUST wear a face covering at all times when using public transport and in stations. Failure to do so and you risk a fine.". "What the....???!!!" I said to myself. It's now been 6 and a half months since mandatory face muzzle laws were scrapped in this country! Why an earth are these ridiculous outdated unjustified PA announcements still going off at this(and maybe some others) tube station in London??!!

 

[duncanp]

I was passing through Hammersmith Underground station on Saturday, transferring from my FlixBus journey from Bristol to London St. Pancras station). When I entered there, I heard a loud PA announcement go off saying something along the lines of "You MUST wear a face covering at all times when using public transport and in stations. Failure to do so and you risk a fine.". "What the....???!!!" I said to myself. It's now been 6 and a half months since mandatory face muzzle laws were scrapped in this country! Why an earth are these ridiculous outdated unjustified PA announcements still going off at this(and maybe some others) tube station in London??!!

Because Sadiq Khant is a maskivist and locktivist zealot, and he wants people to be frightened into believing they are compulsory.

Hence the message I heard on the bus this morning.

But there is hope, as most people are ignoring the messaging and just getting on with their lives.

If only Mr Khant would put as much effort into preventing all the strikes and industrial action on the tube.

 

[Bikeman78]

There are still plenty of posters on TFL busses saying this as well

Every bus needs to visit its home depot at least once every 24 hours so these could all have been ripped out in 48 hours or so.

 

[DelayRepay]

Sadiq just khan't drop his obsession with face nappies, can he.

Just been on a bus in London, and there was a recorded message saying "you must wear a face covering at all times when on public transport"

It is several months since the face nappy mandate was dropped in London, so there is no excuse for this message still to be there.

Seems like a good opportunity to re-post this image



The image shows an Sadiq Khan travelling on a crowded Elizabeth Line service with TfL's Andy Byford. Neither Khan, Byford or any of the other people on board are wearing masks.

 

[duncanp]

Let's just hope that Sadiq Khant doesn't try an import this practice from Broadway to the West End of London.

It will be interesting to see whether attendances on "mask only" nights are better or worse than on other nights.

With the looming economic crisis, and people having less money to spend on leisure generally, I expect economics will dicate whether this policy survives. It will depend, I suppose, on whether any gain in people coming to the "mask only" night is offset by people who won't come because masks are compulsory.

The problem with this sort of arrangement is that it normalises the wearing of masks on a long term basis.

If it was rolled out to theatres, how long would it be before those in favour start demanding it is extended to restaurants, cinemas and places of worship.

Then once the policy is established, why just one "mask only" night per week?

There would be demands for it to be extended to two, three and four nights per week, and before you know where you are...... Hey presto, compulsory face nappies everywhere and at all times.

The Kite Runner: Broadway show first to adopt mask-only nights

The Kite Runner will host special performances for theatre-goers who need or want to wear masks.

www.bbc.co.uk

The Kite Runner: Broadway show first to adopt mask-only nights​

The Kite Runner has become the first show on Broadway to require audiences to wear masks at certain performances.
The move is particularly notable as the show's weekly mask-only evening will be on Fridays - one of the most popular nights in New York's theatre district.
Fans who are disabled or have other health vulnerabilities have long called for theatres to host mask-only nights.
But the major theatres in London's West End have yet to introduce such a scheme.
Producers said they scheduled the performances after some ticket buyers "expressed trepidation" about coming to see the show.

'Audience demand'​

In England and Wales, the mask mandate was lifted in January, in line with a significant fall in Covid cases and deaths following the rollout of the vaccine.
As a result, it has become increasingly rare in recent months to see audience members wearing facemasks at the vast majority of West End performances.
However, the US was much slower than the UK to do away with facemask rules.
Broadway theatres only lifted the industry-wide mask mandate on 1 July, and two plays - The Minutes and American Buffalo - kept their mask requirements in place until they closed later that month.
The decision to offer mask-only performances of The Kite Runner means immunocompromised ticket buyers, or indeed anyone who is uncomfortable sitting in a mask-free environment, will be able to see the show.
"There were a number of people, including friends, colleagues, even a doctor who had expressed some trepidation about attending our show, or any show, without a masked audience," The Kite Runner's lead producer Victoria Lang told The Hollywood Reporter.

"We thought, why not dedicate at least one performance a week to make it a masked audience, so that anyone and everyone who wants to see the show has the opportunity to do that?
"You always hope to boost sales, but it wasn't done specifically to boost sales," she added. "It was done really just to accommodate the requests from the people that were looking for a masked show."
The Kite Runner is an adaptation of the 2003 novel by Khaled Hosseini and opened on Broadway on 21 July, with a planned 17-week running.
The first mask-only performance of the show, which is directed by Giles Croft, will take place on 19 August.
Ushers inside the theatre will enforce the policy, Lang said, and signage outside the theatre and box office will make the policy clear to audiences.

Some venues in the UK have scheduled occasional mask-only performances, including the Hampstead Theatre, the Nottingham Playhouse, the Birmingham Rep, the Stephen Joseph Theatre in Scarborough, and the Royal Shakespeare Company.
Theatres and cinemas already offer showings and screenings for a variety of audiences - such as subtitled or signed performances for people who are hard of hearing, and parent-and-baby screenings for adults who don't want the sound of their infant crying to disrupt others.
As there would be very little public enthusiasm for bringing mask mandates back to entertainment venues in the UK, individual nights dedicated to masks could be a way for theatres to keep most ticket-buyers happy.

Earlier this year, Silent Witness star Liz Carr called for UK theatres to host "Covid-safer performances".
"Theatre should remain accessible even to those of us who have health conditions," she told BBC News at the Olivier Awards in April.
"I think they should have facemask performances that are more socially distanced. In the same way you might have a British sign language performance, I think you should have Covid-safer performances."
Carr recalled: "Some of my friends who weren't ready to come and see my show, they came to see the dress rehearsal, because they didn't feel safe enough to come.
"So I think performances with less capacity and mandatory facemasks, every show should be doing that to make sure theatre remains accessible even to those of us who have health conditions."
Some high-profile West End stars encouraged live audiences to wear masks before the mask mandate was fully lifted in the UK.
Frozen star Stephanie McKeon tweeted in October: "A plea to amazing London audiences: Please please please wear your masks in the theatre. We are working so hard on our end to ensure everyone is safe and to keep our shows running.
'We would be so grateful if you could help us out and do your bit too. Thank you."