Derailment at Kirkby (Merseyside) - 13/03/2021

[tomuk]

Phones are banned in cabs.

Not on all TOCs they aren't.

 

[niggill617@gma]

Merseyrail units are electric (so wouldn't use fuel) and have disc & rheostatic brakes, I believe (so don't produce as much brake dust). I agree accelerating to the full 60 is unlikely, for a smoother journey.

Different TPWS grids are set to different trigger speeds.

What would you expect the report to have investigated regarding TPWS in this incident?

1. I should have said energy.

2. I refer to the OSS loops regards this incident. Currently set for attainable speed of 60 mph.

3. If a consist makes 70 mph due to inattention at the current , grid distance of 295 m from the PSR, would a buffer bash still happen? The report fails to mention gradient to boot.

 

[Stigy]

Not on all TOCs they aren't.

Well, they’re mandated to be switched off, which amounts to the same thing doesn’t it? If any I’d be surprised if any operator allowed phones on in an active driving cab?

 

[D6130]

Well, they’re mandated to be switched off, which amounts to the same thing doesn’t it? If any I’d be surprised if any operator allowed phones on in an active driving cab?

I believe that some of the freight operating companies do....as long as they are not used while the train/loco is in motion.

 

[91108]

To be brutally honest, it shouldn’t need to be policed. Part of the reason train drivers get good remuneration is because there’s an expectation that they are capable of managing these things for themselves.

If the prospect of a having an incident (and being in possibly the most vulnerable position on the train), losing job, and perhaps a prison sentence, isn’t enough then what realistically is?

You are right but unfortunately people are addicted to using mobile phones. Look around at how many car drivers are using phones, I see several every day. The prospect of prosecution, collision, death, causing someone else’s death etc doesn’t stop them.
I agree with craigybagel the debate around tpws and it’s effectiveness is missing the point. The tocs are not dealing properly with mobile phone possession and use in the driving cab. Because this incident was a major collision and raib and BTP were involved they would get access to the drivers phone and usage records from the provider.
If the driver of the train in this incident hadn’t braked at all, and the train had tripped the tpws early on, and been brought safely to a halt, the driver would have been dealt with by his own toc management. As far as I know (and I’m happy to be corrected if anyone knows better) they have no rights or powers to get a drivers mobile phone records and ask the driver to provide them. How easy is it to have 2 phones and only declare one to your employer ?

 

[martin2345uk]

I believe that some of the freight operating companies do....as long as they are not used while the train/loco is in motion.

At my FOC they’re definitely not allowed to be on, though I’ve seen some debate as to whether “airplane mode” counts as off…

It’s not possible to ban having phones physically in the cab at all however.

 

[John Luxton]

Is it not possible to shield cabs against mobile phone signal reception?
Thus phones would not work unless the driver is outside the cab.

 

[D821]

I'd say it was possible but extra expense, and it could probably be bypassed with an open window or door.

 

[zwk500]

Is it not possible to shield cabs against mobile phone signal reception?
Thus phones would not work unless the driver is outside the cab.

The cost of a system that blocks Mobile Reception yet leaves GSM-R untouched to the safety-critical level required is probably going to be out of all proportion to it's usefulness.
Also, it's not unheard of during disruption for train crew to be speaking to Signallers on the GSM-R and the fitters/control on their mobile. A further point would be that Guards often work from intermediate cabs, and they use mobiles for all sorts of tasks.

 

[martin2345uk]

Exactly, we sometimes have to call the fitters helpline from the cab and be mobile to flip various switches etc. so we do need mobile reception!

Plus of course our company iPads wouldn’t work in the cab either!

 

[FrodshamJnct]

I believe that some of the freight operating companies do....as long as they are not used while the train/loco is in motion.

I think this is correct. I know of at least three freight drivers on social media that regularly post from the cab (when the train is stationary).

 

[43066]

To be brutally honest, it shouldn’t need to be policed. Part of the reason train drivers get good remuneration is because there’s an expectation that they are capable of managing these things for themselves.

If the prospect of a having an incident (and being in possibly the most vulnerable position on the train), losing job, and perhaps a prison sentence, isn’t enough then what realistically is?

Agreed: treat people as professionals and they’re more likely to act as such. The last thing we need is more nannying as a knee jerk response. This is not generally a big issue.

The whole attitude towards “electronic devices” is somewhat confused anyway when some cabs are equipped with DAS these days and it’s apparently fine to call the signaller/control/maintenance up via the GSMR (or for DOO drivers to make PA announcements) when on the move…

 

[John Luxton]

The cost of a system that blocks Mobile Reception yet leaves GSM-R untouched to the safety-critical level required is probably going to be out of all proportion to it's usefulness.
Also, it's not unheard of during disruption for train crew to be speaking to Signallers on the GSM-R and the fitters/control on their mobile. A further point would be that Guards often work from intermediate cabs, and they use mobiles for all sorts of tasks.

I see thanks for explaining that.

 

[JamesT]

The cost of a system that blocks Mobile Reception yet leaves GSM-R untouched to the safety-critical level required is probably going to be out of all proportion to it's usefulness.
Also, it's not unheard of during disruption for train crew to be speaking to Signallers on the GSM-R and the fitters/control on their mobile. A further point would be that Guards often work from intermediate cabs, and they use mobiles for all sorts of tasks.

I would have assumed that GSM-R would have an aerial on the outside of the vehicle, is that not the case? In which case blocking using a mobile inside the cab would be a matter of putting a metallic window tint film on all the windows and that should do the trick fairly cheaply.
Though as other commentators have mentioned it's probably not a desirable outcome.

 

[Dai Corner]

I would have assumed that GSM-R would have an aerial on the outside of the vehicle, is that not the case? In which case blocking using a mobile inside the cab would be a matter of putting a metallic window tint film on all the windows and that should do the trick fairly cheaply.
Though as other commentators have mentioned it's probably not a desirable outcome.

You'd need to weld the windows and doors shut too.

 

[tomuk]

If the driver of the train in this incident hadn’t braked at all, and the train had tripped the tpws early on, and been brought safely to a halt, the driver would have been dealt with by his own toc management.

Why do people keep posting that the driver braked? He didn't touch the brake until he was in the platform at over 40mph when he put it in emergency.

He accelerated up to 50mph on leaving Fazakerley and then coasted to Kirkby. He didn't touch the controls.

 

[91108]

Why do people keep posting that the driver braked? He didn't touch the brake until he was in the platform at over 40mph when he put it in emergency.

He accelerated up to 50mph on leaving Fazakerley and then coasted to Kirkby. He didn't touch the controls.

I do apologise, that will teach me to read the full report myself, I had in mind from what I’d been told that he had knocked 10mph off initially from 60 to 50. Luckily I’m just an internet jockey and nobody cares what I think.

 

[philthetube]

At the end of the day, it wasn't a failing of TPWS that caused this incident, but a failing of professionalism. As long as you're relying on TPWS rather than a full ATP system you're going to have cracks that trains can fall through. You could have 10 different TPWS loops on the approach to the platform at Kirkby - but you still wouldn't be able to entirely remove the risk of a train hitting the barriers. You'd also probably destroy the timetable through requiring trains to arrive so slowly as to avoid tripping the grids.

I suspect you'd find a more effective way to improve safety overall would be to step up surveillance of phone use in cabs. It would seem an astonishing piece of bad luck if this was the first time the driver used their phone in the cab - but if they'd been caught previously, we wouldn't be having this discussion on TPWS.

All drivers know that phones are meant to be switched off - and that the use of one in a live cab is a potentially sackable offence (even aside from the risk of an incident like this). The fact that this driver was seemingly pretty relaxed about using theirs - and if the rumours are true, using it to discuss an extremely trivial issue that had nothing to do with their life - is I feel a lot more worrying than any failings of TPWS.

If TWPS grids were set at a speed at which an emergency brake application were needed to stop a train before the buffers? then this should not affect the timetable as they should only come into play when really needed.

Agree the mobile issue is the main one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm actually really surprised the report refers to the mobile phone use in such "light" terms rather than being much stronger about it (i.e. "Drivers MUST NOT..."/"It should be considered a summary dismissal offence to...")

It is very clear, regardless of what else should perhaps be tweaked about safety systems, that this grossly irresponsible and wilfully negligent act was the primary cause. There are no* circumstances under which a driver should be using a handheld phone in a train they are driving when it is moving.

Are the RAIB now reluctant to criticise staff?

* OK, the very odd one, e.g. that Caledonian Sleeper that had faulty brakes. But a bit of sense is needed here.

The whole attitude towards “electronic devices” is somewhat confused anyway when some cabs are equipped with DAS these days and it’s apparently fine to call the signaller/control/maintenance up via the GSMR (or for DOO drivers to make PA announcements) when on the move…

I'm not sure why that differs from a car, bus or lorry, where a handheld phone must not be used, but a hands-free one can be?

 

[43066]

I'm not sure why that differs from a car, bus or lorry, where a handheld phone must not be used, but a hands-free one can be?

It isn’t hands free. Using the GSMR involves holding a telephone style handset and scrolling through a menu looking for the correct number (albeit the signaller can be called by one button press), or picking up the handset for an inbound call.

PA announcements work in the same way.

To be clear, I’m not for a second saying drivers should be using mobiles for personal messages/calls, of course they shouldn’t. But the approach is a little inconsistent: calling maintenance from a mobile on the move would be no less distracting than calling via GSMR. Possibly less so as you could use voice recognition to dial rather than scrolling through a menu.

 

[Dai Corner]

It isn’t hands free. Using the GSMR involves holding a telephone style handset and scrolling through a menu looking for the correct number, or picking up the handset for an inbound call.

PA announcements work in the same way.

Also, GSMR and PA are there for safety and operational purposes, which is clearly different to personal mobile phones.

 

[43066]

Also, GSMR and PA are there for safety and operational purposes, which is clearly different to personal mobile phones.

Agreed. But see my post above.

 

[Railsigns]

Are the RAIB now reluctant to criticise staff?

RAIB: About us

Our investigations are focused solely on improving safety. We are not a prosecuting body and do not apportion blame or liability.

 

[Dave W]

Are the RAIB now reluctant to criticise staff?

When did they ever? It's not their job to dole out criticism and punishment.

I thought the implicit disapproval was fairly forcefully delivered...

 

[Bletchleyite]

It isn’t hands free. Using the GSMR involves holding a telephone style handset and scrolling through a menu looking for the correct number, or picking up the handset for an inbound call.

PA announcements work in the same way.

Interesting - that seems to be a related flaw that the RAIB should also call out - i.e. the PA should be, as it is on German buses, a fixed "bendy" microphone that one can use at a quick button tap, while the GSMR shouldn't involve "scrolling through menus" while a train is moving - or if it does it should only be allowed to be used when stationary.

A train does differ from a car in that only one hand is needed to bang the brake in, you don't also need to steer and change gear, but the potential for distraction from scrolling through menus when moving seems a massive safety issue to me.

 

[craigybagel]

The whole attitude towards “electronic devices” is somewhat confused anyway when some cabs are equipped with DAS these days and it’s apparently fine to call the signaller/control/maintenance up via the GSMR (or for DOO drivers to make PA announcements) when on the move…

I'm pretty sure there are some TOCs that don't allow drivers to use GSMR on the move though?

If TWPS grids were set at a speed at which an emergency brake application were needed to stop a train before the buffers? then this should not affect the timetable as they should only come into play when really needed.

But you'd still need lots of them - to cover every possible combination of speed and distance. Then you'd need to allow for a margin of error and the fact it needs to be set up for the worst brakes permitted for a train at line speed.

 

[43066]

Interesting - that seems to be a related flaw that the RAIB should also call out - i.e. the PA should be, as it is on German buses, a fixed "bendy" microphone that one can use at a quick button tap, while the GSMR shouldn't involve "scrolling through menus" while a train is moving - or if it does it should only be allowed to be used when stationary.

I suppose the point is that there’s a discretion to know when it’s safe to use GSMR/make PAs (at a stand, running on greens), and when it’s obviously a bad idea (eg approaching a red or entering a dead end platform).

Believe it or not GSMR is also capable of sending text messages, albeit the functionality hasn’t been implemented beyond the ubiquitous “Wait” you get back after SGing the signaller when standing at a red. To which I always wish I could text back: “What if I don’t want to?”

I'm pretty sure there are some TOCs that don't allow drivers to use GSMR on the move though?

Really? Neither I’ve worked for have said anything like that, beyond requiring discretion to be exercised. If you weren’t allowed to use it what would happen if the signaller called you when you were on the move?!

but the potential for distraction from scrolling through menus when moving seems a massive safety issue to me.

Yep - to be clear (I’ve edited my post above) you can call the signaller from one button press, which is the most common use for the GSMR, but to contact fleet/maintenance/control it’s an exercise in scrolling.

 

[niggill617@gma]

When did they ever? It's not their job to dole out criticism and punishment.

I thought the implicit disapproval was fairly forcefully delivered...

RAIB make lots of recommendations. In my opinion not enough. The problem is most of the recommendations, disappear into the proverbial railway blackhole.

 

[skyhigh]

Really? Neither I’ve worked for have said anything like that, beyond requiring discretion to be exercised. If you weren’t allowed to use it what would happen if the signaller called you when you were on the move?!

At our TOC drivers must not use the GSMR, PA or cab-cab unless in an emergency. If the signaller calls you on the move, you bring your train to a stand at the first suitable location and call them back (or pick the handset up if they're still there).

I imagine the signallers in my area are aware of this - I only ever get a 'Contact Signaller' message, they never call us unexpectedly.

 

[LowLevel]

At our TOC drivers must not use the GSMR, PA or cab-cab unless in an emergency. If the signaller calls you on the move, you bring your train to a stand at the first suitable location and call them back (or pick the handset up if they're still there).

I imagine the signallers in my area are aware of this - I only ever get a 'Contact Signaller' message, they never call us unexpectedly.

Cab to cab? Is it a TOC with guards? If so that's bonkers. As a guard I use my route knowledge to determine when/if to call the driver, with them having the ultimate discretion of whether to answer or not.

If I need to talk to the driver I don't expect to have to bring the train a stand first to do that in every circumstance.