Potential Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton upgrade

[Shrop]

There's another fast train less than 15 minutes behind from Shrewsbury which does serve Wellington and Telford Central.

Thanks, but I've tried saying this same type of thing many times on other threads, ie that there are other services available within a short time, but every time someone responds stressing the importance of EVERY train having to stop, without exception.
Timetabling appears to a non rail person as being hard to understand, but sometimes I can't help wondering if all options really have been explored. I accept what you say about this train, that would be my reasoning too, it's the refusal by some to ever omit some stations even when there appear to be logical reasons, and available options to do so, that I find harder to accept.
Oh for a consultancy job in rail planning! I did dabble once a few years ago and several times I was able to find solutions which attracted responses of "Ah, we really hadn't thought of that". The converse was true too, when I had to concede the same, but on this forum I do think it's reasonable to make challenges, and I hope they're received constructively, as that's how they're intended.

 

[The Planner]

Thanks, but I've tried saying this same type of thing many times on other threads, ie that there are other services available within a short time, but every time someone responds stressing the importance of EVERY train having to stop, without exception.
Timetabling appears to a non rail person as being hard to understand, but sometimes I can't help wondering if all options really have been explored. I accept what you say about this train, that would be my reasoning too, it's the refusal by some to ever omit some stations even when there appear to be logical reasons, and available options to do so, that I find harder to accept.
Oh for a consultancy job in rail planning! I did dabble once a few years ago and several times I was able to find solutions which attracted responses of "Ah, we really hadn't thought of that". The converse was true too, when I had to concede the same, but on this forum I do think it's reasonable to make challenges, and I hope they're received constructively, as that's how they're intended.

It generally isn't difficult, but its a thing that you either sort of get or it clicks or you just don't and tend to flounder. It is often described as a dark art when it needn't be. It has gone towards a "computer says no" scenario in some cases unfortunately.

 

[Shrop]

It generally isn't difficult, but its a thing that you either sort of get or it clicks or you just don't and tend to flounder. It is often described as a dark art when it needn't be. It has gone towards a "computer says no" scenario in some cases unfortunately.

I never saw it as all that hard to understand, when you come up against "computer says no" that just takes me back to the old saying of "garbage in, garbage out" ie the computer was programmed badly. But there are also often cases when the computer simply can't be programmed to cater properly for circumstances. Why bother having votes on anything when you might he better off just writing all the variables into a program and letting the computer produce the answer, like who should be our next PM, for example?!!
I think there's also an element of entrenched thinking, which people with long rail backgrounds won't thank me for, but some people seem to think that understanding all of the rail parameters is the only way to think, without recognising that however important railways are, there is life outside them. I have a lifelong transport and traffic career behind me, sometimes being closely involved with railways, but I tend to think a little differently to pure rail professionals (and no, that doesn't always make me right!).
Ah, I'm heading off topic again, but I'm just offering a reason for why I sometimes comment as I do.

 

[Philip]

There has been talk over the years about the reopening of the SU line to Stafford, via Newport and Gnosall. If this is a feasible scheme then surely putting the money into this would be of more use for Shrewsbury/Wellington/Telford residents (along with the towns along the route) than saving a couple of minutes on the journey to Birmingham/London? I would add Market Drayton to this but it is on a different route. And the importance of London services from Shrewsbury/Telford is overstated - if the demand for direct services was so great then Avanti would be providing more than a token service as at present.

 

[Starmill]

It's not enormously difficult to understand that if you generally have an hourly service group but that two trains end up just 15 minutes apart for whatever reason due to odd requirements elsewhere (which Sundays are very common for), you might choose to run the first service fast to give it a better turnaround time, safe in the knowledge that an easy connection is available.

If this is a feasible scheme then surely putting the money into this would be of more use for Wellington/Telford residents (along with the towns along the route) than saving a couple of minutes on the journey to Birmingham/London?

Not really given Birmingham is overwhelmingly where people from Wellington and Telford want to go to. Why do you imagine that people in the Telford area want to go to Stafford? And what sort of journey time savings would be achievable compared with changing at Wolverhampton?

 

[Philip]

Not really given Birmingham is overwhelmingly where people from Wellington and Telford want to go to. Why do you imagine that people in the Telford area want to go to Stafford? And what sort of journey time savings would be achievable compared with changing at Wolverhampton?

Stafford is still a major centre so a rail link would still be convenient and may provide quicker journey times for people travelling onwards further north, rather than changing at Wolverhampton or Shrewsbury. I'm sure there are plenty of people who travel between Shrewsbury and Stafford both for communting and for leisure. The journey time savings would depend on the linespeed of the reopened line, but it's a much more direct route.
It's not a like-for-like comparison either; this is about whether funds would be better spent towards a linespeed increase/electrification scheme which would be of little necessity or benefit even if it was possible; or towards reopening an old line which apparently doesn't have too many obstacles in the way and would reconnect Shrewsbury/Telford & Wrekin with the towns en route.

 

[Bald Rick]

If this is a feasible scheme then surely putting the money into this would be of more use for Shrewsbury/Wellington/Telford residents (along with the towns along the route) than saving a couple of minutes on the journey to Birmingham/London?

A journey time improvement project Shrewsbury - Wolves might save 3-4 minutes for a few tens of millions of pounds. Personally I think the case will be a bit thin, but it is probably worth looking at again.

Conversely, opening the line from Wellington to Stafford would cost the thick end of a billion, and not serve Telford. It wouldn‘t serve Newport very well either. And it would be a much longer way round for Shrewsbury residents trying to head north of Stafford. There’s almost nothing going for it. The case for that will be thinner than Monsieur Creosote’s ’waffer’.

 

[The Planner]

I never saw it as all that hard to understand, when you come up against "computer says no" that just takes me back to the old saying of "garbage in, garbage out" ie the computer was programmed badly. But there are also often cases when the computer simply can't be programmed to cater properly for circumstances. Why bother having votes on anything when you might he better off just writing all the variables into a program and letting the computer produce the answer, like who should be our next PM, for example?!!
I think there's also an element of entrenched thinking, which people with long rail backgrounds won't thank me for, but some people seem to think that understanding all of the rail parameters is the only way to think, without recognising that however important railways are, there is life outside them. I have a lifelong transport and traffic career behind me, sometimes being closely involved with railways, but I tend to think a little differently to pure rail professionals (and no, that doesn't always make me right!).
Ah, I'm heading off topic again, but I'm just offering a reason for why I sometimes comment as I do.

It is more of a case that if a path is bid and is non compliant, then its an automatic no, not a case of "what do I need to do to make it work". The process is far from automated to be garbage in garbage out.

Stafford is still a major centre so a rail link would still be convenient and may provide quicker journey times for people travelling onwards further north, rather than changing at Wolverhampton or Shrewsbury. I'm sure there are plenty of people who travel between Shrewsbury and Stafford both for communting and for leisure. The journey time savings would depend on the linespeed of the reopened line, but it's a much more direct route.
It's not a like-for-like comparison either; this is about whether funds would be better spent towards a linespeed increase/electrification scheme which would be of little necessity or benefit even if it was possible; or towards reopening an old line which apparently doesn't have too many obstacles in the way and would reconnect Shrewsbury/Telford & Wrekin with the towns en route.

Not a chance, Stafford resignaling took the ability to put the line back in anyway. Not sure how you can compare a line speed improvement with a re-opening cost wise anyway! I would also suggest you look at googlemaps as well, the A518 is on top of it, an abundance of houses and back gardens in Newport as well as a retail park. Houses built on it in Stafford as well.

 

[Starmill]

It is more of a case that if a path is bid and is non compliant, then its an automatic no, not a case of "what do I need to do to make it work". The process is far from automated to be garbage in garbage out.

Not a chance, Stafford resignaling took the ability to put the line back in anyway. Not sure how you can compare a line speed improvement with a re-opening cost wise anyway! I would also suggest you look at googlemaps as well, the A518 is on top of it, an abundance of houses and back gardens in Newport as well as a retail park. Houses built on it in Stafford as well.

Even if the whole line were still in railway ownership there would be no chance of introducing a new passenger service given you can already travel between Wellington or Telford Central and Stafford quite quickly by changing at Wolverhampton!

It is more of a case that if a path is bid and is non compliant, then its an automatic no, not a case of "what do I need to do to make it work". The process is far from automated to be garbage in garbage out.

Not a chance, Stafford resignaling took the ability to put the line back in anyway. Not sure how you can compare a line speed improvement with a re-opening cost wise anyway! I would also suggest you look at googlemaps as well, the A518 is on top of it, an abundance of houses and back gardens in Newport as well as a retail park. Houses built on it in Stafford as well.

Even if the whole line were still in railway ownership there would be no chance of introducing a new passenger service given you can already travel between Wellington or Telford Central and Stafford quite quickly by changing at Wolverhampton!

 

[Philip]

Even if the whole line were still in railway ownership there would be no chance of introducing a new passenger service given you can already travel between Wellington or Telford Central and Stafford quite quickly by changing at Wolverhampton!


Even if the whole line were still in railway ownership there would be no chance of introducing a new passenger service given you can already travel between Wellington or Telford Central and Stafford quite quickly by changing at Wolverhampton!

The line was owned by the Shropshire Union Railways and Canal Company. It was worth a mention because quite a lot of noise has been made by campaign groups and councillors for its reopening over the last 20 years.

 

[The Planner]

The line was owned by the Shropshire Union Railways and Canal Company. It was worth a mention because quite a lot of noise has been made by campaign groups and councillors for its reopening over the last 20 years.

Did it even attempt a restoring your railway bid? If not then its a whisper, not a noise.

 

[zwk500]

It is more of a case that if a path is bid and is non compliant, then its an automatic no, not a case of "what do I need to do to make it work". The process is far from automated to be garbage in garbage out.

To be fair, this is why there's an entire team at NR set up to look at these sorts of proposals from a 'how do we make this work' angle.

 

[Philip]

Did it even attempt a restoring your railway bid? If not then its a whisper, not a noise.

This is one such proposal from 2011: https://www.shropshirestar.com/news...led-to-restore-telford-to-stafford-rail-line/.

 

[The Planner]

To be fair, this is why there's an entire team at NR set up to look at these sorts of proposals from a 'how do we make this work' angle.

I meant the day job.

This is one such proposal from 2011: https://www.shropshirestar.com/news...led-to-restore-telford-to-stafford-rail-line/.

10 years ago, what since?

 

[zwk500]

I meant the day job.

Yes indeed - but for @Shrop's understanding of the process (particularly after post #93), I thought it worth pointing out that these kind of improvement proposals are looked at in depth and the impacts evaluated by part of the timetable planning team rather than just random bids being fired off to the front-line timetable planners, although that does happen as well!

 

[Philip]

I meant the day job.


10 years ago, what since?

This from 2020: https://www.shropshirestar.com/news...than-ever-because-of-newport-innovation-park/

These might be a costly schemes but public transport options in western Staffordshire and northern Shopshire are not particularly good, so reopening either the Stafford line or the Wellington-Drayton-Nantwich line would at least provide better links for the towns served en route which lost their rail services in the 60s.

 

[The Planner]

This from 2020: https://www.shropshirestar.com/news...than-ever-because-of-newport-innovation-park/

These might be a costly schemes but public transport options in western Staffordshire and northern Shopshire are not particularly good, so reopening either the Stafford line or the Wellington-Drayton-Nantwich line would at least provide better links for the towns served en route which lost their rail services in the 60s.

Same story, the 2011 proposal clearly got nowhere. In the December timetable you can do Telford Euston in 2 hours 15, sort of obliterates the idea of going to Stafford to me. xx.51 off Telford, change at New St for the xx.47 Avanti. Gets you into Euston 2 hours 15 minutes later. Especially so when the 2011 story reckoned the reopened line would allow it to be done in 2 hours 30.

 

[TheBigD]

If there was a demand for trains to Stafford from Shrewsbury, Wellington, or Telford, wouldn't you just use the Oxley curve?

Wasn't the original Virgin proposal to reinstate the Shrewsbury service planned to be routed this way?

 

[Philip]

Same story, the 2011 proposal clearly got nowhere. In the December timetable you can do Telford Euston in 2 hours 15, sort of obliterates the idea of going to Stafford to me. xx.51 off Telford, change at New St for the xx.47 Avanti. Gets you into Euston 2 hours 15 minutes later. Especially so when the 2011 story reckoned the reopened line would allow it to be done in 2 hours 30.

The purpose is more for reconnecting Telford/Wellington/Shrewsbury with the nearby large towns that I've mentioned of which the rail links have been lost. I reckon for example that there is more potential demand for a Telford-Drayton rail link or for Telford-Gnosall-Stafford than there is for improved/faster London services.

 

[The Planner]

The purpose is more for reconnecting Telford/Wellington/Shrewsbury with the nearby large towns that I've mentioned of which the rail links have been lost. I reckon for example that there is more potential demand for a Telford-Drayton rail link or for Telford-Gnosall-Stafford than there is for improved/faster London services.

To quote @Bald Rick , £230 million would probably buy everyone an Uber journey for decades. Looking at Uber now, it reckons £40 from Telford to Stafford. That is 5.75 million Uber rides for £230 million.

 

[cle]

Stafford is still a major centre so a rail link would still be convenient and may provide quicker journey times for people travelling onwards further north, rather than changing at Wolverhampton or Shrewsbury. I'm sure there are plenty of people who travel between Shrewsbury and Stafford both for communting and for leisure. The journey time savings would depend on the linespeed of the reopened line, but it's a much more direct route.

I'm sorry but Stafford is a railhead and a medium sized, forgettable market town which happens to be on a mainline and a junction. I can't see much leisure there and very little inbound commuting from Shrewsbury.

Shrewsbury is more interesting, but I would expect folks in Stafford do not routinely or materially seek pleasure, education or meaningful employment there.

 

[Shrop]

Yes indeed - but for @Shrop's understanding of the process (particularly after post #93), I thought it worth pointing out that these kind of improvement proposals are looked at in depth and the impacts evaluated by part of the timetable planning team rather than just random bids being fired off to the front-line timetable planners, although that does happen as well!

Yes, I was just responding to the "computer says no" comment, which carried the implication that the process was too automated. I would have been dismayed if the timetable planning team didn't have more involvement than that, so the confirmation is welcome.
Fwiw, I wouldn't see any justifiable value in reopening the Wellington to Stafford line, even if practicalities did permit. Shrewsbury to London is (potentially) by far best served by changing at Crewe, the combined journey times being near enough two hours flat. If only there was a reasonable connection then 2h10m would be easy even allowing for a change of trains - I've actually done the end to end journey in 2h2m, involving a quick dash over the bridge at Crewe. But 2h10m is more practical, and this benefit could be available to Cambrian Coast passengers too, if a direct train to Crewe was provided for them which shouldn't be a difficult thing to do.
This all started because of others advocating Shrewsbury to Wolves linespeed improvements, and many others on here have pointed out the futility of pushing for that. So why not instead have a Cambrian-Crewe service, or at very least the South Wales- Manchester service providing a reasonable change option at Crewe? That would just leave Telford, and the Oxley curve idea to Stafford might be worth investigating? Compare the costs of these proposals with the costs of linespeed improvements and/or electrification!

 

[cle]

I

Yes, I was just responding to the "computer says no" comment, which carried the implication that the process was too automated. I would have been dismayed if the timetable planning team didn't have more involvement than that, so the confirmation is welcome.
Fwiw, I wouldn't see any justifiable value in reopening the Wellington to Stafford line, even if practicalities did permit. Shrewsbury to London is (potentially) by far best served by changing at Crewe, the combined journey times being near enough two hours flat. If only there was a reasonable connection then 2h10m would be easy even allowing for a change of trains - I've actually done the end to end journey in 2h2m, involving a quick dash over the bridge at Crewe. But 2h10m is more practical, and this benefit could be available to Cambrian Coast passengers too, if a direct train to Crewe was provided for them which shouldn't be a difficult thing to do.
This all started because of others advocating Shrewsbury to Wolves linespeed improvements, and many others on here have pointed out the futility of pushing for that. So why not instead have a Cambrian-Crewe service, or at very least the South Wales- Manchester service providing a reasonable change option at Crewe? That would just leave Telford, and the Oxley curve idea to Stafford might be worth investigating? Compare the costs of these proposals with the costs of linespeed improvements and/or electrification!

I always thought that with a more 'inter-city' Manchester to Cardiff/Swansea pattern - which is needed, a second service from Crewe to Newport/Cardiff, but possibly Bristol could add some of the local service and provide tons of connectivity at either end. The Liverpool-Cardiff, if it ever comes, might add to this.

So I would think a Cambrian-Crewe might be smart on a similar level. Quicker for London than via Wolves, esp when HS2 comes - and better for points north (west).

 

[Bald Rick]

The purpose is more for reconnecting Telford/Wellington/Shrewsbury with the nearby large towns that I've mentioned of which the rail links have been lost. I reckon for example that there is more potential demand for a Telford-Drayton rail link or for Telford-Gnosall-Stafford than there is for improved/faster London services.

But the route you propose doesn’t serve Telford. And the only large town is Stafford - Newport certainly isn’t.

I have friends from Shrewsbury, lived there for decades, and they have confirmed that the number of times they have needed (even wanted) to go to Stafford can be counted on one thumb.

 

[Inthewest]

The same issues that were there every time it was looked at before haven't gone away and all that would happen is that you leave Shrewsbury a couple of minutes later and get to Wolves at the same time and vice versa. I suspect we will just run over old ground in this thread.

May as well not bother making any improvements to anywhere with that attitude.
Improvements costs money, which this country doesn't like to spend. When you compare us to many other cities around the world, our lust for shying away from large infrastructure projects is why we are where we are.

By then road transport will have pretty much ceased using diesel.

By 2030?
Nah, diesels will be around for at least 20 years.
Remember, the deadline is to stop selling new diesel cars by that date. The old ones will be around for years after that.

 

[The Planner]

May as well not bother making any improvements to anywhere with that attitude.

Why? Unless you can actually realise the benefits of spending the cash, why would you?

 

[Llanigraham]

This all started because of others advocating Shrewsbury to Wolves linespeed improvements, and many others on here have pointed out the futility of pushing for that. So why not instead have a Cambrian-Crewe service, or at very least the South Wales- Manchester service providing a reasonable change option at Crewe? That would just leave Telford, and the Oxley curve idea to Stafford might be worth investigating? Compare the costs of these proposals with the costs of linespeed improvements and/or electrification!

Would there be enough passenger numbers to support that?
From my nearly 20 years experience of travel off the Cambrian, the vast majority of passengers going beyond Shrewsbury are just going to Birmingham and not beyond it.

 

[tomuk]

Would there be enough passenger numbers to support that?
From my nearly 20 years experience of travel off the Cambrian, the vast majority of passengers going beyond Shrewsbury are just going to Birmingham and not beyond it.

Maybe there aren't but there are definitely are some who travel to London or further. Rather than having the extra hourly Aberystwyth service sit in the platform/sidings in Shrewsbury maybe a round trip to Crewe for HS2 and other connection is not such a bad idea.

 

[craigybagel]

Maybe there aren't but there are definitely are some who travel to London or further. Rather than having the extra hourly Aberystwyth service sit in the platform/sidings in Shrewsbury maybe a round trip to Crewe for HS2 and other connection is not such a bad idea.

What makes you think the extra service is going to be sitting round the platform or in the sidings?

 

[tomuk]

What makes you think the extra service is going to be sitting round the platform or in the sidings?

Are we going to get six cars Salop to Brum?