Worst Rail Routes for fare collection in members' experience?

[Kite159]

St Ives branch rarely sees tickets checked in my experience. Had a free journey from Lelant into St Ives this afternoon on a lightly loaded train. The other 6 who got on at Lelant no doubt did not pay either.

Although isn't there normally a revenue block at St Ives during the summer months, both for revenue and to ensure the platform doesn't get too overcrowded?

Although maybe one for @RPI ?

 

[RPI]

Although isn't there normally a revenue block at St Ives during the summer months, both for revenue and to ensure the platform doesn't get too overcrowded?

Although maybe one for @RPI ?

Tired of banging my head against a wall with that part of the world I'm afraid, not wanting to delve to much into the internal politics but some depots are managed better than others. Take from that what you will!

 

[43066]

Although isn't there normally a revenue block at St Ives during the summer months, both for revenue and to ensure the platform doesn't get too overcrowded?

Although maybe one for @RPI ?

Tired of banging my head against a wall with that part of the world I'm afraid, not wanting to delve to much into the internal politics but some depots are managed better than others. Take from that what you will!

Presumably there is an assumption that most will be bound to/from London, hence will encounter barriers eventually?

 

[RPI]

Presumably there is an assumption that most will be bound to/from London, hence will encounter barriers eventually?

The vast majority of travellers on the St Ives branch are day trippers using the park and ride from St Erth. You actually encounter very few long distance passengers on there proportionately, most getting Taxis from St Erth.

 

[WL113]

The Rugeley-Walsall-Birmingham New Street route must be one of the top contenders here. 'It's free on the train' is often said in Rugeley when discussing travel to Cannock/Hednesford etc. Maybe that explains WMT's attitude to Rugeley... Very often services are turned back at Hednesford if they are a few minutes late.

Ticket checks on the line are very rare. Obviously there are barriers to go though at New Street but even those are often open. Travel between the other stations on the line is pretty much a free for all. The line must be losing a lot of money.

 

[Chriso]

The Rugeley-Walsall-Birmingham New Street route must be one of the top contenders here. 'It's free on the train' is often said in Rugeley when discussing travel to Cannock/Hednesford etc. Maybe that explains WMT's attitude to Rugeley... Very often services are turned back at Hednesford if they are a few minutes late.

Ticket checks on the line are very rare. Obviously there are barriers to go though at New Street but even those are often open. Travel between the other stations on the line is pretty much a free for all. The line must be losing a lot of money.

There used to be a small group of assistant ticket inspectors routinely used on the route until electrification.

The idiot management at London Midland decided to get rid of them . I encountered one during his last few weeks around Cannock and he said the line would become a free for all. Another great LM legacy

 

[RPI]

There used to be a small group of assistant ticket inspectors routinely used on the route until electrification.

The idiot management at London Midland decided to get rid of them . I encountered one during his last few weeks around Cannock and he said the line would become a free for all. Another great LM legacy

I've always wondered why more TOC'S don't have Ticket Examiners*, generally not on massive wages but earn commission. Certainly on GWR we make use of them and they bring in a lot of money, especially in the West.

*Different TOC'S have different job titles but effectively a member of staff checking/selling tickets in addition to the guard, but not quite an RPI.

 

[Kite159]

I've always wondered why more TOC'S don't have Ticket Examiners*, generally not on massive wages but earn commission. Certainly on GWR we make use of them and they bring in a lot of money, especially in the West.

*Different TOC'S have different job titles but effectively a member of staff checking/selling tickets in addition to the guard, but not quite an RPI.

Especially for those routes which operates with pairs of units which don't have gangways and the instruction for the guard is to stay in the rear unit.

 

[markymark2000]

I've always wondered why more TOC'S don't have Ticket Examiners*, generally not on massive wages but earn commission. Certainly on GWR we make use of them and they bring in a lot of money, especially in the West.

*Different TOC'S have different job titles but effectively a member of staff checking/selling tickets in addition to the guard, but not quite an RPI.

Any service which has frequent stops or runs as a multiple unit with the guard unable to be in part of the train should have another member of staff to check tickets.

I'd also say we need to get ticket barriers operational for more hours. I've never seen ticket gates open as much as I have done in the past few months and there seems to be an unwillingness to build more ticket barriers.

 

[L401CJF]

Any service which has frequent stops or runs as a multiple unit with the guard unable to be in part of the train should have another member of staff to check tickets.

I'd also say we need to get ticket barriers operational for more hours. I've never seen ticket gates open as much as I have done in the past few months and there seems to be an unwillingness to build more ticket barriers.

Wolverhampton is one that seems to be open 9 times out of 10 and really annoys me. Wide open in the morning and evening rush both days I've worked down there in the last week. Really annoying as there's so many who avoid paying down that way on our trains as it is, no chance of me getting to all of them!

Not much use when they're in operation either to be honest. I had a guy on not long ago who's a regular evader, hiding in the bog going on about "the system" and all that so I gave up with him in the end. He jumped off at Wolverhampton. I watched him go to the wide gate with the staff member on it, who just let him through anyway almost immediately.

Clearly they know not to waste their time on him too!

 

[185]

I also think prioritising BTP for revenue is a horrendous waste; I'd far rather they prioritised dealing with the violent, too drunk, and dangerous offenders rather than one that's simply skipped a fare.

Disagree. At one operator, on a number of revenue blocks over a trial period of of four weeks, a very high number of people were picked up for: wanted on warrant, breach of bail, possession of huge amount drugs, violence, drunk and incapable weapons & stolen property, immigration - all of these found whilst dodging fares of £2.50 to £4. One was wanted for, and subsequently convicted of murder.

The thing that brought a stop to these ops was a certain senior police officer who claimed these ops were 'heavily distorting the figures' and stated "we're not there to be your security thugs".

My opinion - BTP has truly lost its way in recent years.

 

[Bikeman78]

The Rugeley-Walsall-Birmingham New Street route must be one of the top contenders here. 'It's free on the train' is often said in Rugeley when discussing travel to Cannock/Hednesford etc. Maybe that explains WMT's attitude to Rugeley... Very often services are turned back at Hednesford if they are a few minutes late.

Ticket checks on the line are very rare. Obviously there are barriers to go though at New Street but even those are often open. Travel between the other stations on the line is pretty much a free for all. The line must be losing a lot of money.

The 153+170 combinations were a fare dodgers dream. The guard was always in the 170 so the dodgers went in the 153.

 

[markymark2000]

Disagree. At one operator, on a number of revenue blocks over a trial period of of four weeks, a very high number of people were picked up for: wanted on warrant, breach of bail, possession of huge amount drugs, violence, drunk and incapable weapons & stolen property, immigration - all of these found whilst dodging fares of £2.50 to £4. One was wanted for, and subsequently convicted of murder.

The thing that brought a stop to these ops was a certain senior police officer who claimed these ops were 'heavily distorting the figures' and stated "we're not there to be your security thugs".

My opinion - BTP has truly lost its way in recent years.

So much I could say on BTP but it isn't relevant. Waste of time though summarises it for me.

To back up your point though, TFGM and Greater Manchester Police did a Travelsafe operation increasing visibility of the police on public transport to deter anti social behaviour etc, here are their results from Twitter (I've put the figures together and quoted them as text as it's all on photos on twitter)

https://twitter.com/OfficialTfGM/status/1577328587233005570

In 3 days:

82 arrests
158 vehicles seized
3138 Metrolink fines issued
3 court summons
138 stop searches
4 drug seizures
6 drug warnings

 

[Chucky]

In 3 days:

82 arrests
158 vehicles seized
3138 Metrolink fines issued
3 court summons
138 stop searches
4 drug seizures
6 drug warnings

Which all equals more work for them. Hence why they don't want to do it. Better to ignore it, that way their figures look better. If the crimes aren't detected and recorded then as far as the BTP and the bean counters are concerned, they don't exist and don't need to be acted upon.

I've witnessed a number of these 'sting' operations over the years and thought they were a good thing. Current attitude in this country seems to be brush all the problems under the rug and then pretend we can't smell the festering stink under our feet that, sooner or later, we'll one day have to face up to.

 

[uglymonkey]

What's weird is that its not consistent, Exmouth - Exeter always has tickets checks on the train ( even if units in multiple), but Thameslink ( or SouthEastern you never see anyone)

 

[Edsmith]

Disagree. At one operator, on a number of revenue blocks over a trial period of of four weeks, a very high number of people were picked up for: wanted on warrant, breach of bail, possession of huge amount drugs, violence, drunk and incapable weapons & stolen property, immigration - all of these found whilst dodging fares of £2.50 to £4. One was wanted for, and subsequently convicted of murder.

The thing that brought a stop to these ops was a certain senior police officer who claimed these ops were 'heavily distorting the figures' and stated "we're not there to be your security thugs".

My opinion - BTP has truly lost its way in recent years.

I think BTP are to some extent damned whatever they do but I think most people would rather see them proactively dealing with violent offenders and the like rather than standing around chatting as they inevitably would be for much of the time on ticket checks.

What's weird is that its not consistent, Exmouth - Exeter always has tickets checks on the train ( even if units in multiple), but Thameslink ( or SouthEastern you never see anyone)

There were occasional ticket checks on Southeastern before covid but they’re almost non existent now.

I was surprised though to see the ticket barriers at Chatham in use yesterday, there was only a half hourly Thameslink service through the station because of industrial action.

 

[Sealink]

Yesterday, I happened to talk to a chappie from Wem. He said that, if seeking to go for a night out in Shrewsbury, taking the train was a 'no brainer' - it was more expensive to park the car than pay any fares, and, of course, he could have a drink without worrying about the breathaliser. He also said that nobody ever buys a ticket on the evening trains back, as no conducter ever comes around. (Presumably Shrewsbury is ungated in the evenings?)

Last month we had this post from @class26:


We've also had mention of massive fare evasion on some Scottish routes, not helped by the increased difficulty in prosecuting offenders caused by Scottish law. I assum this is also a disincentive to conductors to try to get all fares due, especially on late night services when the chances of violence/fracas increases.

This got me wondering - which GB route in this group's esteemed members' experience has the worst fare collection rates, and on which trains? And how much of a difference does this make to the DfT station entrance-exit stats, with potential knock-on effect in terms of lack of improved service enhancement?

I can't remember ever having a ticket checked on Thameslink, and they serve ungated stations.

 

[Kite159]

The 153+170 combinations were a fare dodgers dream. The guard was always in the 170 so the dodgers went in the 153.

Or even when it was a pair of 2 coach 170s. All the pay when challenged heading to Walsall in the front unit

 

[RPI]

What's weird is that its not consistent, Exmouth - Exeter always has tickets checks on the train ( even if units in multiple), but Thameslink ( or SouthEastern you never see anyone)

The vast majority of early trains (up until around 12:00) have a Ticket Examiner rostered as well as the guard, we RPI'S also often work an Exmouth service either as part of many trips or to fill in before/after a London.

We've done a few station blocks along there too over the past few weeks, one evening one at Polsloe Bridge was very worthwhile last week.

 

[david1212]

Disagree. At one operator, on a number of revenue blocks over a trial period of of four weeks, a very high number of people were picked up for: wanted on warrant, breach of bail, possession of huge amount drugs, violence, drunk and incapable weapons & stolen property, immigration - all of these found whilst dodging fares of £2.50 to £4. One was wanted for, and subsequently convicted of murder.

The thing that brought a stop to these ops was a certain senior police officer who claimed these ops were 'heavily distorting the figures' and stated "we're not there to be your security thugs".

My opinion - BTP has truly lost its way in recent years.

Which all equals more work for them. Hence why they don't want to do it. Better to ignore it, that way their figures look better. If the crimes aren't detected and recorded then as far as the BTP and the bean counters are concerned, they don't exist and don't need to be acted upon.

I've witnessed a number of these 'sting' operations over the years and thought they were a good thing. Current attitude in this country seems to be brush all the problems under the rug and then pretend we can't smell the festering stink under our feet that, sooner or later, we'll one day have to face up to.

I think BTP are to some extent damned whatever they do but I think most people would rather see them proactively dealing with violent offenders and the like rather than standing around chatting as they inevitably would be for much of the time on ticket checks.

Hmmmm .....
IMO the BTP certainly should not be doing straight forward revenue protection but given if well run the checks are also picking up a significant number of other offences their involvent seems valid.

Regarding the two sentences I have highlighted in bold surely why the police are there. If "we're not there to be your security thugs" was "we're not there to be your queue control" i.e. no offences then yes down to the railway to manage either in-house or by contracting. If significant verbal abuse, physical abuse, violence, vandalism etc. then the BTP need to be involved. Following on if they pickup people already wanted or find additional offences e.g. drugs, weapons that has to be a good thing.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Mentioned many times before , but full ticket checks on the North London line and the Watford DC reaped a rich harvest of bail and warrant skippers , a few drugs possessions and a couple of stolen bikes / property. (plus a significant revenue boost for a while) - certain people chose not to travel. This on a Friday and Saturday evening.

The then Chief Superintendant of BTP , an excellent chap , expressed satisfaction for the excercise and it was repeated serveral times , and on other London Metro routes.

 

[uglymonkey]

Actually got my ticket checked on the train from New Eltham to London Bridge last night ! 2nd time in 6 months !

 

[Route115?]

Chiltern relies entirely on barriers and Marylebone is nearly always manned. I don't think that i have had my ticket checked on an inner service in the last year.

 

[Watershed]

Chiltern relies entirely on barriers and Marylebone is nearly always manned. I don't think that i have had my ticket checked on an inner service in the last year.

They do have some roving RPIs, and a handful of services south of Banbury have guards rostered (generally as pass rides to/from the 68 hauled services, which require guards). But yes, most checks are barrier based, as all south of Banbury (other than 68 hauled/West Ealing) are DOO.

 

[RPI]

SWR west of Salisbury is pretty bad, on my daily commute I've been checked a handful of times, this also shows in a professional capacity to as we catch at least two or three "Pinhoe's" per day when we work at Exeter Central, this is where we scan E Tickets from Pinhoe and check the purchase time and ask some questions if it was bought in the last few minutes, with these so far 100% end up in MG11 where they have mostly come from Honiton/Axminster and as far as Andover!
Quite often in conversation the person will admit that they do it because no one ever checks tickets on that line.

 

[LowLevel]

SWR west of Salisbury is pretty bad, on my daily commute I've been checked a handful of times, this also shows in a professional capacity to as we catch at least two or three "Pinhoe's" per day when we work at Exeter Central, this is where we scan E Tickets from Pinhoe and check the purchase time and ask some questions if it was bought in the last few minutes, with these so far 100% end up in MG11 where they have mostly come from Honiton/Axminster and as far as Andover!
Quite often in conversation the person will admit that they do it because no one ever checks tickets on that line.

I used to use the then SWT train to Exeter quite often because it was free for me using passes - don't remember ever not seeing a guard on there, they were generally pretty good all over their network.

I think there is quite a lot in weak management letting people get into lazy habits that they don't bother attempting to correct across the network. Far easier to leave it be.

 

[Edsmith]

I used to use the then SWT train to Exeter quite often because it was free for me using passes - don't remember ever not seeing a guard on there, they were generally pretty good all over their network.

I think there is quite a lot in weak management letting people get into lazy habits that they don't bother attempting to correct across the network. Far easier to leave it be.

I travel from Clapham Junction to Exeter now and again and whilst I do normally see the guard they don't seem very interested in checking tickets, I think your final paragraph hits the nail on the head.

 

[RPI]

I used to use the then SWT train to Exeter quite often because it was free for me using passes - don't remember ever not seeing a guard on there, they were generally pretty good all over their network.

I think there is quite a lot in weak management letting people get into lazy habits that they don't bother attempting to correct across the network. Far easier to leave it be.

The few keen ones that are left are all old school ones who have been around since SWT days, and its a very small minority.

 

[VideozVideoz]

Travelled on my local line (Lichfield - Birmingham) weekly, or several times a week, for the last few years. I’ve had my ticket checked onboard precisely twice in what must be at least 200 journeys. Even the barriers at New Street are open half the time.

I find they new street barriers are usually shut. My QR code wasn’t displaying and they wouldn’t let me through. Consequently, I missed my train despite me showing my email confirmation

I haven't used Preston for a while but when I have ticket checks at the station are common. I would guess that a significant number of people making that journey would be railcard holders, so just forcing anyone alighting without a ticket to buy an Anytime Adult ticket is possibly enough to encourage people to buy before boarding.

I’ve never seen any ticket checks at preston before and I’m there once every couple of weeks!

Any Thameslink service I’ve been on has never had my ticket checked. Does this company not bother??

 

[dk1]

I’ve never seen any ticket checks at preston before and I’m there once every couple of weeks!

They where very common on the footbridge over to platforms 1 & 2.