Northern cancellations getting worse

[Mcr Warrior]

At the time the trains to MUFG stopped running, the reason given was that because more trains were going to be scheduled along the Castlefield corridor, there was no longer the capacity available to run the football extras.

That's as may be, but Northern were asserting in an April 2019 tweet that it was a football club decision to end the matchday (heavy rail) service.

https://twitter.com/northernassist/status/1116033062113030144

The National Rail website also says as much.

Manchester United Football Ground Station | National Rail

Discover Manchester United Football Ground railway station. Getting to & from, buying & collecting train tickets, staffing, facilities, accessibility, & mobility access.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Extract...

Station message​

This station was previously only open on match days when Manchester United F.C. played at home but all services have now been suspended indefinitely at the request of the club for safety reasons.

which effectively confirms what @Rail Ranger stated.

 

[Bovverboy]

Though also it is now operationally a faff to serve even if they wanted to - it used to be an extension of the Deansgate terminators which reversed in a siding pretty much opposite the stadium and could easily be switched to reversing in the stadium platform instead.

To the best of my knowledge there were never any Deansgate terminators, but one journey per day (Mondays to Fridays) did commence there. An afternoon Crewe to Piccadilly (via Manchester Airport) service was extended to Oxford Road, arriving there around 1545, I think. It then ran ECS to the reversing siding opposite MUFC, stayed there for something over an hour, then ran ECS to Deansgate, from where it ran 1710 Deansgate to Stoke-on-Trent. This one journey, and the football extras on match days, were the only occasions, as far as I know, that Class 323s ran west of Castlefield Junction.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Trains did terminate at Deansgate for years after the closure of the Altrincham line for conversion to Metrolink in 1991. A siding was provided at Trafford Park East where they laid over. The original plan had been to electrify from Deansgate to Salford Crescent but the cost doubled with rail privatisation.

 

[jfollows]

Trains did terminate at Deansgate for years after the closure of the Altrincham line for conversion to Metrolink in 1991. A siding was provided at Trafford Park East where they laid over. The original plan had been to electrify from Deansgate to Salford Crescent but the cost doubled with rail privatisation.

Agreed.
In 1993, for example, there was an xx.00 and xx.30 Deansgate-Crewe via Stockport service. So every 30 minutes all day. The xx.00 omitted Chelford and Goostrey, but otherwise they called at all stations. The 16:30 & 17:00 went to Hazel Grove instead. Very sensible for connections from Metrolink at Deansgate.

EDIT 2K28 13:00 Deansgate-Crewe from Section CE WTT 17/5/93 to 3/10/93 attached.

By 1994/95 the service was only hourly at xx.29, all stations to Crewe via Stockport. The service on the other half hour continued, but as xx.05 from Piccadilly main station, still omitting Chelford and Goostrey.

 

[185143]

Last two trains out of Manchester towards Warrington and Liverpool were cancelled last night due to crew shortages.

The first one got no replacement whatsoever. The second one? A single 16 seater minibus, which was late too. Quite a few of us were unsurprisngly left behind! A long wait for taxis too. But we got home and that's the main thing.

 

[MikeWM]

I'm intending to travel the rather simple journey of Liverpool to Huyton around 5pm tomorrow (well, today now). Pre-covid this had 5 trains an hour, so not something worth planning.

But tomorrow it looks like there are only 2 trains *timetabled* to run between 4pm and 5pm - at 1627 (after a 42-minute gap) and 1645.

Worse, between 5pm and 6pm there are 4 timetabled - at 1709, 1728, 1736 and 1745 - but of those only the 1709 appears to be due to run - the other three have *already been cancelled* according to Northern's journey planner!

That's really not very good - is it always this poor? I think I'll probably go for the bus instead.

1645 now cancelled as well!

On the plus side, this means I'll get a decent amount of delay repay from a compounded delay starting with LNWR with a 40-minute delay at Birmingham while they tried to find a driver, so I guess it isn't all bad.

 

[The Prisoner]

We arrived at Manchester Airport last Sunday and just missed the 1502 to Wilmslow which would have got us back to Chester in a roundabout way via Crewe. 1530 to Carnforth was canned so we got the Metrolink into Manchester. Missed the 1557 from Piccadilly to Chester anyway and got the 1657 which was rammed full due to a signal failure at Bolton (customers heading to Warrington BQ for the WCML north). Got home around four hours after we had landed.

MIA - between TPE and Northern - is getting obliterated and seems such an awful gateway to the country for any overseas visitors, especially when you throw in just how poor the Airport experience is there at the moment as well.

On the flip side I quite enjoyed the Metrolink random route from the Airport to the City Centre which I hadn't done before.

Haven't bothered claiming the delay repay for being late

 

[norbitonflyer]

I see the SuO Balckpool - Hellifield sevice was csncelled yesterday. Is this common? I was hopung to do the Clitheroe/ Hellifield line next Sunday.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I see the SuO Balckpool - Hellifield sevice was csncelled yesterday. Is this common? I was hopung to do the Clitheroe/ Hellifield line next Sunday.

I think it'd be fairly high up the list because it's very lightly used. I'm not sure I see much point in it to be honest (as against DalesRail which does load well).

 

[harz99]

Northern have absolutely no service on some routes this weekend due to engineering works and no replacement buses. Hopefully nobody turns up at Chathill...

Can also see they've got the month wrong on their site.

Timetables are changing - 11 December

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

Fortunately Grand Central were running a few replacement coaches in respect of their services on the Sunderland to Kings Cross route, from Hartlepool to Northallerton calling at Eaglescliffe, so we managed a return trip from Hartlepool to Darlington okay.

 

[LYuen]

So I have a delay repay claim rejected by Northern, quoting that the train was cancelled before 10 pm on the previous day so it could not be refunded. It was an advanced single ticket purchased about a week ahead. What is the rationale this claim can be rejected? A train ticket is bought in advanced and the itinerary of a day is planned around it, and no matter it is change of timetable or delay on the day, it would cause disturbance. In my understanding, delay repay is specifically for compensating such disturbance, how can an operator knows they can disrupt passengers early enough, they can dodge the responsibility?

 

[Jamesrob637]

So I have a delay repay claim rejected by Northern, quoting that the train was cancelled before 10 pm on the previous day so it could not be refunded. It was an advanced single ticket purchased about a week ahead. What is the rationale this claim can be rejected? A train ticket is bought in advanced and the itinerary of a day is planned around it, and no matter it is change of timetable or delay on the day, it would cause disturbance. In my understanding, delay repay is specifically for compensating such disturbance, how can an operator knows they can disrupt passengers early enough, they can dodge the responsibility?

You can claim delay repay as your scheduled train was cancelled.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Delay Repay is for delays.

If you chose not to travel due to disruption you are entitled to a full refund from the point of purchase, which is a different claim procedure.

 

[Kite159]

So I have a delay repay claim rejected by Northern, quoting that the train was cancelled before 10 pm on the previous day so it could not be refunded. It was an advanced single ticket purchased about a week ahead. What is the rationale this claim can be rejected? A train ticket is bought in advanced and the itinerary of a day is planned around it, and no matter it is change of timetable or delay on the day, it would cause disturbance. In my understanding, delay repay is specifically for compensating such disturbance, how can an operator knows they can disrupt passengers early enough, they can dodge the responsibility?

Blame the passenger unfriendly NRCOT update, where the railways think they can override basic contract law by saying they can cancel trains before 10pm and not have to pay out for any delays, even if they decide they can't be bothered running any trains that day.

Remember it's the railways way of putting passengers first

 

[NewClee153]

Don’t know if this has been mentioned, but the 2 Sunday only PRE/BPN-HLD via CLH services were cancelled last week due to a “short notice change to the timetable”, presumably this is a weekly cancellation?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don’t know if this has been mentioned, but the 2 Sunday only PRE/BPN-HLD via CLH services were cancelled last week due to a “short notice change to the timetable”, presumably this is a weekly cancellation?

It was mentioned above. Unlike proper DalesRail these are fresh air expresses and could probably just be pulled entirely.

 

[XAM2175]

In my understanding, delay repay is specifically for compensating such disturbance, how can an operator knows they can disrupt passengers early enough, they can dodge the responsibility?

You can claim delay repay as your scheduled train was cancelled.

The National Rail Conditions of Travel were amended at the start of February to remove Delay Repay eligibility if the cancellation was notified before 2200 on the day before travel.

The legality of this change is disputed, but it's the way things are for the time being.

If you were delayed by one hour or more you are still entitled to the lower levels of compensation provided for in Article 17 of the Passengers' Rights and Obligations regulations, as these cannot be excluded by the NRCoT.

A thread in the Fare Disputes section would be the best place for advice if this applies to you and you want to take things further.

 

[Watershed]

So I have a delay repay claim rejected by Northern, quoting that the train was cancelled before 10 pm on the previous day so it could not be refunded. It was an advanced single ticket purchased about a week ahead. What is the rationale this claim can be rejected? A train ticket is bought in advanced and the itinerary of a day is planned around it, and no matter it is change of timetable or delay on the day, it would cause disturbance. In my understanding, delay repay is specifically for compensating such disturbance, how can an operator knows they can disrupt passengers early enough, they can dodge the responsibility?

The rationale is that they can do what they want - because what, realistically, are you going to do about it?

Not use them again? They won't care. They're funded by the Treasury regardless of how many passengers travel.

Take them to the Ombudsman? Complete waste of time; the Ombudsman just accepts whatever the TOC says at face value and rules in their favour.

Report them to the regulator, the ORR? Good luck getting them interested.

Sue them, over a couple of pounds? Unlikely to be worth your time.

They can do this with impunity because there is no effective method of recourse.

 

[Matt_pool]

7.40am from Warrington Central to Liverpool Lime Street was 10 minutes late on Monday, then it was cancelled yesterday and cancelled again today. It's an important commuter service as it gets people into Liverpool just after 8.20am in time for a 9am start. The next Northern train on the CLC after that doesn't get to Liverpool until after 9am.

Just waiting for when today's 17.19 or 17.55 from Lime Street are cancelled. It was the turn of the 17.19 again yesterday.

It's a complete shambles!

 

[43066]

Blame the passenger unfriendly NRCOT update, where the railways think they can override basic contract law by saying they can cancel trains before 10pm and not have to pay out for any delays, even if they decide they can't be bothered running any trains that day.

How exactly is “ basic contract law” being overridden when the NRCOT form part of the terms of said contract?

As for the predictable “can’t be bothered running any trains” moan, yawn!

 

[alansheppard77]

cancelations on the Whitby line today,the service next to useless,quicker on the bus

 

[Kite159]

How exactly is “ basic contract law” being overridden when the NRCOT form part of the terms of said contract?

As for the predictable “can’t be bothered running any trains” moan, yawn!

So you think it's perfectly fine for someone holding an advance ticket to be told "bugger off, we are not paying up for your delay as the train was cancelled the night before".

Next time that passenger will decide to use the car, especially when rail companies can say "sorry we couldn't get any replacement buses at short notice, now just go away and come back another day". But maybe the staff want that, back to the glory days of April 2020 when nobody was traveling

 

[43066]

So you think it's perfectly fine for someone holding an advance ticket to be told "bugger off, we are not paying up for your delay as the train was cancelled the night before".

That’s a straw man and a childishly OTT way of describing what’s happening. I never said it’s “perfectly fine” - clearly it’s sub optimal - but sometimes things go wrong and cancellations happen. It’s easy enough to check the night before travelling (I always do so myself).

Please can you now explain how “basic contract law” is being overridden?

Next time that passenger will decide to use the car, especially when rail companies can say "sorry we couldn't get any replacement buses at short notice, now just go away and come back another day". But maybe the staff want that, back to the glory days of April 2020 when nobody was traveling

Oh dear. You appear to be having a conversation entirely with yourself. The above paragraph contains the standard attack on railway staff and the usual boring, tired predictions about how passengers will never come back. Unfortunately it seems your poor understanding of contract law is matched by a lack of insight into real world passenger behaviour: the railway is now back to close to 100% of pre Covid passenger numbers. Either they’re all idiots or the railway isn’t all bad…

 

[Kite159]

Oh dear. You appear to be having a conversation entirely with yourself. The above paragraph contains the standard attack on railway staff and the usual boring, tired predictions about how passengers will never come back. Unfortunately it seems your poor understanding of contract law is matched by a lack of insight into real world passenger behaviour: the railway is now back to 100% of pre Covid passenger numbers. Either they’re all idiots or the railway isn’t all bad…

Do you have a source for that claim that they are back to 100%?

Or are you simply including any boost the railways might have got from the queen's death, as that was a one-off event.

As for contract law, you purchase an advance ticket valid only for the 07:00 from A to B, you get to the station to find that train has been cancelled the night before, the next service isn't until the 08:05 service getting you to the destination over an hour late. Try claiming delay repay and it will be thrown back saying the train was cancelled before 10pm the night before so nothing is due back.
The next time that passenger needs to travel, will they bother trusting the railways not to pull a similar stunt, especially if they need to catch the 07:00 to get to work on time.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Do you have a source for that claim that they are back to 100%?

Last I heard was it was maybe 90%-93% across the network.

Rail passenger numbers over 90% of pre-pandemic levels

Figures published by the Department for Transport (DfT) on Wednesday 27 July show that passenger numbers are now close to pre-pandemic levels.

www.railadvent.co.uk

Extract:-

Figures published by the Department for Transport (DfT) on Wednesday 27 July show that passenger numbers are now close to pre-pandemic levels.

Every day of the week between Wednesday 6th and Sunday 17th July, passenger numbers were at 90-93% of pre-Covid levels.

Are there maybe more recent figures now available?

 

[43066]

Do you have a source for that claim that they are back to 100%?

Or are you simply including any boost the railways might have got from the queen's death, as that was a one-off event.

Dealt with above. Nothing to do with the queen’s death based on the fact the passenger numbers over the funeral period were if anything lower than expected…

As for contract law, you purchase an advance ticket valid only for the 07:00 from A to B, you get to the station to find that train has been cancelled the night before, the next service isn't until the 08:05 service getting you to the destination over an hour late. Try claiming delay repay and it will be thrown back saying the train was cancelled before 10pm the night before so nothing is due back.

Again showing a lack of understanding. If you buy a train ticket you do so subject to the NRCOT ie they’re incorporated into the contract and you’re deemed to have accepted them whether you’ve bothered to read them or not. Clearly it isn’t ideal but if the train is cancelled the inconvenience remains irrespective of whether you can claim delay repay.

The next time that passenger needs to travel, will they bother trusting the railways not to pull a similar stunt, especially if they need to catch the 07:00 to get to work on time.

You’re just repeating the same old nonsense. Where’s your source for your statement that these changes to the NRCOT will lead:

But maybe the staff want that, back to the glory days of April 2020 when nobody was traveling

Just yet more hyperbole. Most of your posts just seem to be moaning for the sake of it.

 

[Kite159]

Dealt with above. Nothing to do with the queen’s death based on the fact the passenger numbers over the funeral period were if anything lower than expected…

Which said 90-93%

Not 100% as you claimed. So once more, do you have a source to back up "the railway is now back to 100% of pre Covid passenger numbers"

 

[43066]

Which said 90-93%

Not 100% as you claimed. So once more, do you have a source to back up "the railway is now back to 100% of pre Covid passenger numbers"

I edited my post to say “close to” (90-93%, some areas eg long distance leisure travel now over 100%). Splitting irrelevant hairs as a smokescreen isn’t a good debating tactic…

With that out of the way please can you now expand on your ludicrous and hyperbolic claims:

- that TOCs are breaching contract law;

- that these changes to the NRCOT are
taking us back to 2020 levels of
ridership?

 

[Kite159]

Using that hour delay, with the TOC rejecting the delay repay claim, they are ignoring both the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and the Rail Passengers’ Rights and Obligations Regulation which make no reference to "timetable of the day"!

Even condition 33.3 of the NRCOT.

The changes of the NRCOT is just one example of the railways putting the passengers last, it's a way to hide cancellations to boost their on the day performance figures.

 

[43066]

Using that hour delay, with the TOC rejecting the delay repay claim, they are ignoring both the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and the Rail Passengers’ Rights and Obligations Regulation which make no reference to "timetable of the day"!

Even condition 33.3 of the NRCOT.

The changes of the NRCOT is just one example of the railways putting the passengers last, it's a way to hide cancellations to boost their on the day performance figures.

It’s no good just throwing up some pieces of legislation you’ve read about (or more likely you’ve read someone else commenting on).

You’re the one claiming a breach is occurring so it’s up to you to show what it is. Specifically which provisions are being breached and why?

I’ve also asked a few times now for some evidence that the current NRCOT are reducing passenger numbers, as you’ve asserted above.