I was in Hungary recently, at Tiszafured there were no fences or barriers, when the train was coming people simply walked across the tracks to the appropriate platform. More major stations had underpasses although some people still walked across the line.
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Attitudes towards safety (including lack of fencing, open doors while moving etc) in other countries.
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One striking thing I've seen on Amtrak in the US is passengers having to cross tracks in front of a train to board it. Just not done in the UK!
I believe the reason for the fencing stipulation on early British railways was at the request of aristocratic landowners who were dubious of railways, rather than to keep people off the railways.
I believe the reason for the fencing stipulation on early British railways was at the request of aristocratic landowners who were dubious of railways, rather than to keep people off the railways.
Certainly in Australia the original intention in fencing most lines was to keep livestock off them, and much of it outside built-up areas remains either plain wire or sheep netting. Preventing trespass came later, and usually takes the form of chain-link fencing between four and seven feet high depending on traffic levels on both sides of the fence. You'd never see palisade fencing for it; to the best of my knowledge that's a uniquely British level of paranoia.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There are such stations. Tywyn is one - it just feels wrong!
I was on a train from Brno to Prague a couple of weeks ago and about half way through the journey we entered the suburbs of a town. Alongside the tracks was a road and houses but, apart from gravel and a small grass verge, there was no fence. This continued for just under a mile, then there were sidings and a goods yard, but again no fencing.
The next day I got the train from Prague to Beroun to visit Pivovar Berounsky Medved (a brewery). This is located a few hundred metres from the station and is accessed along a dirt track alongside the railway tracks, again with no fencing.
I then got the train to Revnice to visit Pivovar Revnice. I used the subway to get from the platform to the station exit. When I returned later on the train back to Prague arrived on a track without a proper platform. It was a slightly raised block of concrete that was accessed by walking over other tracks!
The next day I got the train from Prague to Beroun to visit Pivovar Berounsky Medved (a brewery). This is located a few hundred metres from the station and is accessed along a dirt track alongside the railway tracks, again with no fencing.
I then got the train to Revnice to visit Pivovar Revnice. I used the subway to get from the platform to the station exit. When I returned later on the train back to Prague arrived on a track without a proper platform. It was a slightly raised block of concrete that was accessed by walking over other tracks!
I managed to do that once in Slovakia - fortunately without having trains moving on the other side.
There must have been a time when many stations in Europe - even quite major ones - worked by having the area by the station building being the waiting area, with the other platforms (or piled up ballast) just being used to board and alight. As your train came in you walked across as many tracks as required to get on.
This is of course a bit awkward if there are two trains in at once, and also requires some care from trains running through non-stop when it's dark or foggy.
I presume this all works fairly well with the system of having the "station master" also being the signaller.
There are still plenty of stations in Czechia (and indeed some within Prague itself) that work like this though from what I've seen it's now confined to smaller or less busy ones.
On a trip from Prague to Linz a few years ago I saw a few stations like this across the Austrian border, and more that had been rebuilt with subways.
As in this design you board trains from a platform at the station building side of each track, an obvious feature is that there is generally one track rather than two between each platform, and I've seen stations in various Western European countries with this configuration but with "proper" platforms, either with a subway or a single foot crossing rather than a more free-form approach to where you cross the track.
Here's an example in Czechia:
This one is in Spain, with "high" platforms and notices warning you that you really ought to be a bit careful when crossing the tracks. Maybe it once looked more like the one above.
And as for fencing, I was intrigued on a recent trip through Belgium not so much by the large stretches of unfenced track (that's pretty common in much of Europe) but by the fact that on the high speed line some of the fencing was just mesh held up by wooden fence posts. Not how we'd do it in the UK...
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Some Furness Line/Cumbrian Coast stations e.g. Ulverston have this layout, though with high platforms and UK style safety features.
DanielB
Member
There are several stations in the Netherlands with that layout as well, but usually with subways and fencing on one side of the platform.
Actually the number is increasing lately: some stations with a too narrow island platform according to the latest safety standards have had a new side platform added and the island platform fenced on one side.
Most awkward situation has Geleen Oost with a level crossing somewhere in the middle of the platform. Dating back from the times it was still served by long IC trains it has some special signage to prevent accidents. Although currently trains there are short enough to just use the platform besides the level crossing.
Signs "Do not disembark" at Geleen Oost station
Actually the number is increasing lately: some stations with a too narrow island platform according to the latest safety standards have had a new side platform added and the island platform fenced on one side.
Most awkward situation has Geleen Oost with a level crossing somewhere in the middle of the platform. Dating back from the times it was still served by long IC trains it has some special signage to prevent accidents. Although currently trains there are short enough to just use the platform besides the level crossing.
Signs "Do not disembark" at Geleen Oost station
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An interesting layout.
How about this one at Aulnoye-Aymeries in France?
I don't know if the platform is used beyond the track crossing it. As you can see in the photo, the train I arrived on had the rear door neatly over where the platform is lowered for the track, and the guard stood in the doorway telling people to move down to the other end of the coach to get out.
There didn't seem to be any signs telling people not to cross the track across the platform.
I suppose if everyone lines up facing the track they could fit a few people in between the lines...
There's also Poluvsie halt in Slovakia with a road level crossing part way down the platform.
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jumble
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The Belgians do things that would never be allowed here
They allow vintage trams to run with their doors open and people to stand next to the open doors
Bonus Question
Where does this tram come from?
I missed it in 1964 but finally caught up with it a few weeks ago !
On the hand I believe they've banned "heritage" traction from the main line, so we do things that wouldn't be allowed there...
All these people at Nagymaros in Hungary have got off the same train (the one in the picture!)
The station building is somewhere down the far end, past the people in the distance, on the right. There isn't even a platform on the station building side of the tracks. You come off the road, through a small arch and basically onto the tracks. I don't know where you're supposed to wait until the train arrives. I suppose there aren't really that many people waiting that it causes an issue!
The aerial photo seems to show a small area in front (track side) of the station building. But I seem to recall that was fenced off when I was there.
The station building is somewhere down the far end, past the people in the distance, on the right. There isn't even a platform on the station building side of the tracks. You come off the road, through a small arch and basically onto the tracks. I don't know where you're supposed to wait until the train arrives. I suppose there aren't really that many people waiting that it causes an issue!
The aerial photo seems to show a small area in front (track side) of the station building. But I seem to recall that was fenced off when I was there.
DanielB
Member
Is that really a road through the platform, or a similar situation as we have at the Dutch station of Daarlerveen where the train always stops after crossing the level crossing. (At Daarlerveen the platforms are therefore named "1a" and "1b")
This is the ASVi heritage tram network.
This particular tram comes from Luxemburg.
It is not a permanent resident of the line.
It was invited for the celebration of the 50th anniversary of the association,
and came by truck from Luxembourg. Also a tram from the belgian coast
network and a steam loco from the Baie de Somme network were invited.
This picture will soon be history.
In the background, a belgian AM96 EMU, used for the Mons - Aulnoye service,
that will be discontinued at the next schedule change in December, because of low utilisation.
I did not know! It would go against every instinct
Bungle158
Member
I live within sound of the now electrified Konkan Railway. There are very different attitudes to risk in India. That said, roof riding is banned. Violators are subject to arrest, fines and even imprisonment. The perils raised by proximity to the now 25Kv overhead has made the practice a thing of the past in urban centres like Mumbai, although l have seen it fairly recently in very remote and non-electrified areas.
On suburban routes, sliding doors are latched open. Long distance trains usually run doors open, even on 130Kph "Superfasts". Passengers often fall from trains, although that does not deter most travellers from crowding doorways.
Shortcuts across the tracks are generally tolerated at smaller stations, although technically illegal; whilst victims of collisions now have the benefit of a sheet rather than being rolled in carpet.
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Kreissignal
Member
Ferch-Lienewitz station on the RB23 near Potsdam has a very narrow, very low (20cm) island platform reached from the station building via a barrow crossing that's only unlocked by the station-master once a train is standing at the platform. There's a bell so that passengers wanting to board there can make their presence known.
Europe is good at making rules that are of great intention, but funding their implementation is usually very slow, in cases of several decades or more. I think this was an issue the UK had with its membership of the EU as we are rules based rather than intention based and tended for harsh implementation of those rules, sometimes at the disbelief of other nations.
Across most of Eastern Europe there is no fencing, regular track usage for short cuts and walking across tracks to board trains in locations usually rural, small or medium towns. When it comes to cities access and fencing is more normalised to UK equivalents, I assume due to the increased frequency of and volume of movement.
The UK tends to be denser packed of population, people have much more space in Europe away from cities, and greater distances between locations..fencing would be a waste in rural locations devoid of population in agricultural land… An Equivalent example of say 1 hour south of Krakow would be the equivalent to say the Far North lines from Inverness.
By counter many locations in Eastern Europe have much lower traffic.. say 2/3 upto 7/8 trains a day.. where as few locations in the UK have anything less than hourly frequencies.
I also think the UK has greater social problems than Europe when it comes to vandalism & trespass and peoples intelligence around rail safety (situational awareness) is diminished by the reliance of protection in place. Though countryside EE definitely has adult drink drive issues.
I think Europeans in more rural locations grow up to see railways as a road and treat it the same way, simply if a vehicle is coming respect its right of way. My wifes family (which can be quite large) lives in several rural locations in EE and dont have any issues with or qualms of using a railway line as a short cut.. I did ask about safety.. the response was everyone knows when a train is coming, and the last time anything changed was before 1989 when there was a few more trains than now..
They see roads as the greater danger (especially as many rural towns are without pavements and no lighting)..its saddening to see so many mini shrines at the roadside in EE, often children walking home run down by a drunk in the dark… having seen it, it is scary and I too have opted to walk home on the railway line instead of the road in some locations… in open country you can hear a conversation from a mile away, so a train is no problem.
Across most of Eastern Europe there is no fencing, regular track usage for short cuts and walking across tracks to board trains in locations usually rural, small or medium towns. When it comes to cities access and fencing is more normalised to UK equivalents, I assume due to the increased frequency of and volume of movement.
The UK tends to be denser packed of population, people have much more space in Europe away from cities, and greater distances between locations..fencing would be a waste in rural locations devoid of population in agricultural land… An Equivalent example of say 1 hour south of Krakow would be the equivalent to say the Far North lines from Inverness.
By counter many locations in Eastern Europe have much lower traffic.. say 2/3 upto 7/8 trains a day.. where as few locations in the UK have anything less than hourly frequencies.
I also think the UK has greater social problems than Europe when it comes to vandalism & trespass and peoples intelligence around rail safety (situational awareness) is diminished by the reliance of protection in place. Though countryside EE definitely has adult drink drive issues.
I think Europeans in more rural locations grow up to see railways as a road and treat it the same way, simply if a vehicle is coming respect its right of way. My wifes family (which can be quite large) lives in several rural locations in EE and dont have any issues with or qualms of using a railway line as a short cut.. I did ask about safety.. the response was everyone knows when a train is coming, and the last time anything changed was before 1989 when there was a few more trains than now..
They see roads as the greater danger (especially as many rural towns are without pavements and no lighting)..its saddening to see so many mini shrines at the roadside in EE, often children walking home run down by a drunk in the dark… having seen it, it is scary and I too have opted to walk home on the railway line instead of the road in some locations… in open country you can hear a conversation from a mile away, so a train is no problem.
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Indeed that that was (partly) why I was there, to travel on it while I could.
I don't know how long the SNCF train will remain loco-hauled either.
The train to MONS indeed wasn't very busy.
According to EGTRE, there might be a (more) frequent alternative to cross the border via a different route though in the next timetable change:
It did seem a little odd that - despite being such a short journey - the Auylnoye-Mons train counts as an IC and didn't make intermediate stops (although SNCF call it a TER).
That looks quite typical (still) for much of Eastern Europe.
It took me quite a fwe years to realise that stations must have been like that in various Western Europe countries too but have mostly been modernised. After all, when they were built the borders weren't where they are now.
It depends, of course. Within Prague there are still some rather low key stations left.
Here (Praha-Smíchov severní nástupiště - not the main part of Smichov) you use the footbridge to get to where I was standing to take the photo, then walk across the tracks in the yard to reach the platforms.
At Praha-Holešovice zastávka (not the "real" Holešovice station) you walk across the track to reach the platforms.
And at Praha-Bubny you walk from the what's left of the station building just visible on the left across the track to the "platforms".
All these are close to the centre of Prague.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Until the mid 2000s there was a setup like that at Praha hl.n. (i.e. the main station) - you would go up to the numbered "nastupiste" which was actually a group of platforms, a central island and some side ones, for the latter you had to cross on the level. It was redone in the 2000s and this feature I think removed.
Edit: This image (Wikimedia Commons) confirms my memory - note the Solari (actually Pragotron) display with a big arrow on it pointing to the subsidiary platform. Intrigued what the little "portal" thing on the subsidiary platform is.
Edit: This image (Wikimedia Commons) confirms my memory - note the Solari (actually Pragotron) display with a big arrow on it pointing to the subsidiary platform. Intrigued what the little "portal" thing on the subsidiary platform is.
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Royston Vasey
Established Member
I recently took a NJ Transit North Jersey Coast local service late at night from New York Penn Station to North Elizabeth NJ.
North Elizabeth is a four track station on the North East Corridor route, with outer platforms serving the local lines, carrying NJ Transit stopping and fast services, and the fast lines carrying North East Corridor and Acela services at 70-80 mph.
On approaching North Elizabeth we were told to alight at a single door towards the front of the train, and that we'd be using "a shorter platform than usual". The loco did a little shuffling before the doors opened.
We had pulled up on the fast line, adjacent to the platform end, and purpose made boards had been placed over the ballast and between the rails. Passengers alighted to track level, walked to the platform end, up steps to the platform and along the platform to alight.
I found out that the local line was closed due to Amtrak "tie" (sleeper) replacement works and this was standard temporary practice for local passengers:
https://www.njtransit.com/service-advisory/1539651
This would be like closing the slows at Hitchin and alighting Thameslink services from the fast lines... unthinkable! We'd be bussed.
This was after, on the earlier journey to New York, I spotted a man walking onto and lying between the rails on the local track a couple of hundred yards up the line in front of our train, having accessed through a hole in the fence. I and another passenger alerted the driver and guard, who saw him get up and walk off the track, they shrugged their shoulders, said thanks and we departed over where he had been lying with no delay.
North Elizabeth is a four track station on the North East Corridor route, with outer platforms serving the local lines, carrying NJ Transit stopping and fast services, and the fast lines carrying North East Corridor and Acela services at 70-80 mph.
On approaching North Elizabeth we were told to alight at a single door towards the front of the train, and that we'd be using "a shorter platform than usual". The loco did a little shuffling before the doors opened.
We had pulled up on the fast line, adjacent to the platform end, and purpose made boards had been placed over the ballast and between the rails. Passengers alighted to track level, walked to the platform end, up steps to the platform and along the platform to alight.
I found out that the local line was closed due to Amtrak "tie" (sleeper) replacement works and this was standard temporary practice for local passengers:
https://www.njtransit.com/service-advisory/1539651
This would be like closing the slows at Hitchin and alighting Thameslink services from the fast lines... unthinkable! We'd be bussed.
This was after, on the earlier journey to New York, I spotted a man walking onto and lying between the rails on the local track a couple of hundred yards up the line in front of our train, having accessed through a hole in the fence. I and another passenger alerted the driver and guard, who saw him get up and walk off the track, they shrugged their shoulders, said thanks and we departed over where he had been lying with no delay.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I don't think it's unthinkable for safety reasons per-se, it's no less safe, if there's a possession on the slows, than local door at a rural low-platform station with a set of wooden steps. The reason we'd not do it is more about accessibiility and that our stock doesn't have built in steps.
Presumably fairly safe since the slow line was closed. I've seen something very similar in the US.
I've also seen an arrangement with "gangways" built across the closed line, though I can't now remember what country this was in. Not the UK anyway.
This may now be a think of the past, but there certainly used to be double track Amtrak stations with only one platform. If a train came in on the far track you just had to walk across the nearer track to reach it and get on from ground level.
I'm sure they made sure that there were no trains passing at the time.
I've also been dropped off at a level (sorry, grade) crossings in the US rather than the platform.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
A late 1990s (1998) anecdote. I was with a group of Venture Scouts on EN 224/225 (forget which way it was numbered) Donauwalzer from Oostende to Munich, and at a random station in Germany (forget where) we pulled into the wrong platform. Our train was still on the displays on the correct one, which was across the line. A bloke was waiting for it there. A hatted member of staff pointed at it, and he stepped down onto the track, opened the door and boarded, as if that was the most normal thing in the world (it quite possibly was back then). Nothing was said and off we went.
I'm not so sure about this one, but in general I think it's easy to look at what goes on in other countries with UK eyes and see it as a bit more dangerous than it actually is.
In the UK trains have priority at crossings, so barrow crossings at through stations in the UK are a risky affair because if a through train is coming past it's not going to stop for someone on the tracks.
But I'm sure that in North America if they are still allowing boarding across a through track they will stop any trains that might otherwise want to come past.
And I remember some time ago on a foggy morning in Slovakia at a large station where platform access was across the tracks seeing freight trains being slowly hand-signalled through the station.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It may well be relevant that the UK has and always has had signalling very much separate from station operations, whereas the station master was traditionally also the signaller at small European stations (also true in Asia, where the signalling is that person with a flag on the platform). Signalling kit is still very often in the station building at older European stations.
Royston Vasey
Established Member
Yes and no. Here we would not alight a train from track level across the line even if a possession was in place, unless in an emergency. Certainly not on the busiest main line in the country. Yes the possession is in place but trains move in possessions and even in the UK, incidents like runaways happen and we wouldn't take the risk.
It seems like a belt but no braces approach which wouldn't fly here.
In normal operations, of course, but incidents do happen when there arent enough layers of protection. In North America it does seem anecdotally that collisions, runaways, speeding etc are more prevalent.
Needless to say, I looked left and right.
Yes I think that's quite relevant - I said something along those lines earlier.
Yes. As I said above, I think we tend to see things as a bit more dangerous than they are. That's not to say that there isn't more danger than the UK approach because clearly there is.
We do things in a particular way in the UK - every possible risk has to be prevented while passengers are on railway property, but if leaving the station involves getting to the other side of a busy road with no pedestrian crossing that's perfectly fine. (Or if a Network Rail van is parked on the pavement forcing people to wade into a busy road to get to the station, for that matter).
This approach might look a bit odd to people from other countries.
On another matter, I wonder if the shoes on the non rail side are isolated on the "Train Jaune" trains in France.
Given the warning signs about the 3rd rails themselves and lack of warning about the promiment shoes on the platform side I expect they are, but it looked a bit alarming. Possible they're pushed by by the rail and only make electrical contact when they are.
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