Attitudes towards safety (including lack of fencing, open doors while moving etc) in other countries.

[Ken H]

On my facebook feed i get movies taken of Indian Railways.
The trains all run with doors open.
And there are people on the tracks, often just taking a short cut. No- one in hi-viz. Electrified railways too (overhead).
And some show level crossings with people chancing it in front of trains, usually on mopeds.

Makes an interesting comparison to our security fenced railways etc.

 

[6Gman]

And when someone is killed by a train they roll them in a piece of carpet, shove them in the vestibule and take them to the city station to transfer to the morgue.

Try doing that on the 0723 Guildford - Waterloo . . .

Very different attitudes.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Hence the widespread use of fencing as a deterrent

Someone runs along the roof of a Pendolino at speed and if they don't fall off or get struck by a bridge, they're electrocuted by the OHLE and flung to the ground. Do we just wait until the orange army to find them upon routine inspection of the track and bury them in the cess?

 

[geoffk]

Perhaps the OP is trying to say that, somewhere in between UK and Indian practice, there's a more cost-effective way of doing things which rely on common sense. But I'm not trying to speak for him! A European comparison would be more appropriate.

 

[DavyCrocket]

Even in Australia, some suburban heavy rail operates with no fencing

 

[Llanigraham]

The difference is likely to be the legislation that allowed the building of the railway in the first place. In the UK I think all the Railway Enabling Acts required the fencing of the line from the adjoining land, whereas elsewhere, like India or America that was not the case.

 

[Graham H]

Just been to Portugal. Some external doors open on the train I was on, minimal hi viz and appeared to be no issue walking over the tracks in the stations. Maybe its the way in the UK if some scrote gets into a yard, climbs a wagon or daubs graffiti and gets electrocuted its all the railways fault and not the idiot doing it ?

 

[John Webb]

The difference is likely to be the legislation that allowed the building of the railway in the first place. In the UK I think all the Railway Enabling Acts required the fencing of the line from the adjoining land, whereas elsewhere, like India or America that was not the case.

I would agree with this comment. According to "The Oxford Companion to British Railway History" (Simmons and Biddle, OUP 1997) the main reason for fencing wasn't to keep people off the track but to prevent cattle straying onto the line. The requirement goes back to the Surry Iron Railway in 1801. In some cases road authorities could demand fencing or more elaborate screening between roads and parallel railway lines.
In later years, as the fencing was erected and maintained by the railway, case law held the railway company responsible for injury to trespassers. Apparently this was particularly significant in Southern Railway areas as third-rail electrification spread. Rather than the responsibility for children, for example, resting with their parents the state of the fence became more important. In 1972 The House of Lords decided in Harrington's Case that there was a Common Law duty to fence in favour of potential child trespassers as well as the statutory duty to fence in favour of owners and occupiers of land next to the railway.

 

[PeterY]

With all the fencing around to try and stop trespassing and my thoughts only, how do people still manage to get onto the railway side of the fence? I'm guessing it's not difficult. I see way too much graffiti and I'm surprised that there aren't more causalities because some of it is very close to the track.

 

[Ken H]

Perhaps the OP is trying to say that, somewhere in between UK and Indian practice, there's a more cost-effective way of doing things which rely on common sense. But I'm not trying to speak for him! A European comparison would be more appropriate.

I actually want trying to say anything, just bring the differences in approach to the forums attention.

On fencing, back in BR days, a fence was waist high posts with 4 strands of wire stretched between them. but now a fence is a security fence.
I am sure legislation and case law has changed how the railway regards the risk in the UK since the 1970's. But back before 1948 one assumes both UK and India railways were bound by the same laws????

 

[Bemined]

The Netherlands really likes fences as well, even at railroad crossings the sides are often fully fenced off even though you can simply walk onto the tracks from the crossing itself (even when the crossing is closed, as most crossings only have half barriers). At high risk crossings they put special rubber mats that make it very hard to walk on, but most crossings don't have those so you can still access the track quite easily if you want to. So it's probably more about making it even more obvious you are not supposed to go there and not about actually stopping people from doing so.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Just been to Portugal. Some external doors open on the train I was on, minimal hi viz and appeared to be no issue walking over the tracks in the stations.

A Portuguese court recently ruled that trains running with open doors are unacceptable.

[Portugal] Court ruling could suspend IC service nationwide

CP was ordered in court to pay €1.6M in damages to a woman who suffered a fall during the depart of the Sud Express, back in 2009, which resulted in her left leg being amputated. This was the highest-ever recorded penalty awarded for a single individual in Portugal. The ticket inspector was also...

www.railforums.co.uk

The court judge ruled that "one's safety ceases to be the passenger's responsibility once the train starts moving, because public transport should not move with open doors, and doing so invites people to try to get in/out even when it's on the move", regardless of what industry norms require (or required) for the safe operation of vehicles.

 

[Ken H]

The Netherlands really likes fences as well, even at railroad crossings the sides are often fully fenced off even though you can simply walk onto the tracks from the crossing itself (even when the crossing is closed, as most crossings only have half barriers). At high risk crossings they put special rubber mats that make it very hard to walk on, but most crossings don't have those so you can still access the track quite easily if you want to. So it's probably more about making it even more obvious you are not supposed to go there and not about actually stopping people from doing so.

You can never make a railway 100% secure. there are level crossings, rights of way crossing the tracks, and the big break in the perimeter, stations.
And a hacksaw will breach the security fences.
If people could breach the berlin wall they can get on the tracks.
That's not an argument for not fencing - just an observation.

 

[MarcVD]

In Belgium, fencing of railways is not that common. It is done in urban and suburban areas, and around stations. Much less in the country side. I'm not aware of any case of SNCB or Infrabel being held responsible of an accident caused by trespassing because of lack of adequate fencing. Fencing is very often in a quite neglected - if not derelict - state and receives very little attention by right of way maintainers.

Animals are always under the responsibility of their owner. Farmers must take care of the fencing and are 100 % responsible of anything that could happen if an animal leaves their property.

High speed lines are 100 % fenced, which is considered as an issue for the wildlife, so these lines are equipped with regular passages, named 'ecoducts', that allow wild animals to cross them.

 

[AdamWW]

In Belgium, fencing of railways is not that common. It is done in urban and suburban areas, and around stations. Much less in the country side. I'm not aware of any case of SNCB or Infrabel being held responsible of an accident caused by trespassing because of lack of adequate fencing. Fencing is very often in a quite neglected - if not derelict - state and receives very little attention by right of way maintainers.

Animals are always under the responsibility of their owner. Farmers must take care of the fencing and are 100 % responsible of anything that could happen if an animal leaves their property.

High speed lines are 100 % fenced, which is considered as an issue for the wildlife, so these lines are equipped with regular passages, named 'ecoducts', that allow wild animals to cross them.

I was intriged to see in Spain where the tracks of a high speed line ran parallel to a conventional line that the fencing was between the high speed and conventional line rather than fencing off all the tracks.

 

[stuu]

On my facebook feed i get movies taken of Indian Railways.
The trains all run with doors open.
And there are people on the tracks, often just taking a short cut. No- one in hi-viz. Electrified railways too (overhead).
And some show level crossings with people chancing it in front of trains, usually on mopeds.

Makes an interesting comparison to our security fenced railways etc.

Thousands and thousands of people die every year, it was something like 4000 just in Mumbai a few years ago

 

[yorkie]

A Portuguese court recently ruled that trains running with open doors are unacceptable.

[Portugal] Court ruling could suspend IC service nationwide

CP was ordered in court to pay €1.6M in damages to a woman who suffered a fall during the depart of the Sud Express, back in 2009, which resulted in her left leg being amputated. This was the highest-ever recorded penalty awarded for a single individual in Portugal. The ticket inspector was also...

www.railforums.co.uk

It still happens though.

Perhaps the OP is trying to say that, somewhere in between UK and Indian practice, there's a more cost-effective way of doing things which rely on common sense. But I'm not trying to speak for him! A European comparison would be more appropriate.

Indeed a comparison with India is utterly pointless.

 

[MisterSheeps]

There's another aspect to fencing ... delineation of boundary. Britain is obsessed with property ownership. Go on a line like that over Rannoch Moor and there's almost zero trespass. Acts of Parliament were very strict about boundaries & limits of deviation.
If you go in places like Switzerland, or Northern Spain (ex FEVE) most isn't fenced, other than cuttings, but there's farmer provisioned electric fencing where need to stop beasts straying. I've always wondered what was done before electric fencing.

 

[duesselmartin]

Germany has largely no fencing and DB even once argued in safety ground. If a heard encroaches they are unlikely be able to leave.
Also access for energency services.

On the other side, Germany loves it sound barrier walls.

 

[MisterSheeps]

Germany loves it sound barrier walls

That is a recent development though, like the glass screens along motorways innthe Netherlands. You make a good point about fencing stopping animals escaping

 

[Graham H]

A Portuguese court recently ruled that trains running with open doors are unacceptable.

[Portugal] Court ruling could suspend IC service nationwide

CP was ordered in court to pay €1.6M in damages to a woman who suffered a fall during the depart of the Sud Express, back in 2009, which resulted in her left leg being amputated. This was the highest-ever recorded penalty awarded for a single individual in Portugal. The ticket inspector was also...

www.railforums.co.uk

Interesting. We followed the Douro valley and pretty much every train I saw had one or more doors open. Of course anything operated by modern units didnt but these were diesel plus coaches sets.

 

[yorkie]

Interesting. We followed the Douro valley and pretty much every train I saw had one or more doors open. Of course anything operated by modern units didnt but these were diesel plus coaches sets.

I had the same experience and it just makes me want to go back there even more!

 

[Graham H]

I had the same experience and it just makes me want to go back there even more!

Yes that and the huge opening windows that drop right down. I presume they did that in lieu of aircon in the good old days. I suppose the Portuguese court finding something 'unacceptable' isnt really a ban, just a note that some practice, like dumping toilet waste on the tracks here, isnt desirable but doesnt get an outright knee jerk ban. Rather the case that over time new build stock is designed to remove unacceptable features and eventually those elements will disappear. I did come away with the impression that self responsibility was far more prevalent over there, basically if you get hurt doing something stupid then its your fault. Or as my Mum used to say, OK go ahead but if you break your leg dont come running to me !

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

This is what @Giugiaro wrote at the time:

An interpretation of this court ruling puts at risk all current InterCity services in Portugal.
The IC service runs the risk of being suspended at the national level. As well as the InterRegional service in Minho and Douro.
It is possible that the operating license will be revoked for rolling stock without automatic door closing and remote-controlled unlocking, as a consequence of the court decision, which also puts blame on the national land transport authority.
This means the Arco, Corail, CIM, CIS and Schindler carriages may have to be out of service indefinitely.

 

[Lloyds siding]

I think that demand for fencing/walling, etc was a variable in the very early Acts enabling the railways. However, by the time of the Railway Regulation Act 1842 it said:

"Railway Companies to erect and maintain Fences.

And whereas it is expedient that further Provision be made for the Safety of the Public in respect of the Fences of Railways; be it enacted, That all Railway Companies shall be under the same Liability of Obligation to erect, and to maintain and repair, good and sufficient Fence3 throughout the whole of their respective Lines, as they would have been if every Part of such Fences had been originally ordered to be made under an Order of Justices by virtue of the Provisions to that Effect in the Acts of Parliament relating to such Railways respectively. "

 

[Graham H]

This is what @Giugiaro wrote at the time:

I saw that but is there any dates for a ban ? Definitely plenty of Schindler and other loco hauled coach sets in and around Porto on 8th/9th October and on my train both end doors of the coach I was in were open and in the vestibule by one of them the guard/ticket collector was happily chatting to another passenger so was clearly unconcerned. I was surprised to see open doors and agree its probably unacceptable though today

 

[Cowley]

To discuss the court case in Portugal there’s a specific thread here.

I’ve altered the title to allow this thread to include the attitudes abroad towards other aspects of safety (such as travelling with open doors) as well now though.

Please mind the gap between that thread and this one.

 

[Llanigraham]

I actually want trying to say anything, just bring the differences in approach to the forums attention.

On fencing, back in BR days, a fence was waist high posts with 4 strands of wire stretched between them. but now a fence is a security fence.
I am sure legislation and case law has changed how the railway regards the risk in the UK since the 1970's. But back before 1948 one assumes both UK and India railways were bound by the same laws????

I doubt it, since as far as I can see Indian Railways didn't require an Enabling Act of Parliament to be built.
And whilst India might have based it's legal system on that of the UK there were (are) many cultural differences that affect how legislation was written.

 

[Iskra]

I ended up crossing a number of tracks and sidings in Greece earlier this week (following a couple of locals) walking on the ballast as there was no pedestrian access out of the station on one side to a local point of interest.* This was clearly commonly done as the ballast was discoloured through regular use on the narrow unofficial crossing section in question. Some military engineering personnel were working on the railway sidings nearby and they didn’t bat an eyelid.

In rural Southern Italy, around 10-15 years ago it was common for people to be seen crossing the tracks directly between platforms at stations, and sometimes you would see people walking along the tracks between stations. Nowadays, this is thankfully increasingly rare.

Equally, some of the Italian shunting around the Sicily train ferry involves shunting with passenger doors open or the end carriage inter-connecting door left open during the movements.

*Yes I am aware this is not advisable and would not do this in the UK, so no lecture from the RailUk morality police is required.

 

[rg177]

In most of Central Europe its just the done thing to have a bit of sense around the tracks and cross/interact in a safe way - sometimes it's unavoidable!

A couple of years ago I was at Protivin station in the Czech Republic when I grabbed a photo of the train I'd just alighted only to realise I was suddenly on a narrow slipway with two moving trains either side.

The stationmaster jokingly wagged her finger and me then burst out laughing when she realised I was just a Brit on tour. Either way, I haven't repeated that incident!