EU rules to travel

[johncrossley]

I think it might be best for those with two or more nationalities to present both/all passports/id cards.

How do you show an automatic passport gate more than one passport?

 

[Sm5]

That means taking both the UK passport as well as the EU ID card.

thats a problem ?

When you arrive in Europe, leave the UK passport in your pocket.
when you arrive back, leave the EU ID card in your pocket.

Look at it a different way…

Citizenship is like a first class ticket to UK immigration. (I know many may choke reading this and disagree)
Settled Status is like a 2nd class ticket…

its valid for the exact same journey, and the benefits are similar, but not the same.

So trading in EUSS for Citizenship is like trading in your 2nd class for a 1st class ticket for the same train.

Whilst you may not have handed that now canceled 2nd class ticket in and may still hold it, its not valid.

So when the TI comes, and sees you showing a 2nd class ticket, sitting in a 1st class seat, hes going to ask you questions.

Simply going “ta da, here is my 1st class ticket, I had one all the time”, is just going to annoy him, and if marked as a pattern lead to scrutiny down the road as to why your using invalid tickets when you have a valid one.

thats my take on it.

I think it might be best for those with two or more nationalities to present both/all passports/id cards.

There is no obligation to do so, when you enter a country you only hold 1 status, as theres only 1 of you.
Some countries dont permit multi-citizenship, other countries are hostile.

Naturally you should present the most pertinent one…

A good example would be an Israeli presenting in Saudi using his UK passport, and leaving the Israeli one in the bag, indeed maybe leaving it a home…

I suspect a number of Russians resident in the UK or Europe are leaving their Russian passports at home right now whilst travelling.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I think it might be best for those with two or more nationalities to present both/all passports/id cards.

It's not required. British citizens only have to satisfy the immigration officers as to their identity, there's no legal requirement to present a travel document as such. It's different to Poland, where I'm legally obliged to use a Polish travel document to cross the Polish border, both Schengen and non-Schengen.

We haven’t yet started to address the potential issues with virtual working across borders- a senior manager in my organisation is based in Amsterdam so is presumably a legal permanent resident of the Netherlands but as far as I know, a British citizen working for a British company.

This is a major issue in the EU right now. There are a lot of so-called 'digital nomads' working illegally in the EU, and there aren't any effective ways of policing this. Let's take Luke, our American who wants to work remotely while staying in the EU. He spends 90 days in Spain, 90 days in Cyprus, 90 days in Italy and 90 days in Croatia before starting the cycle again. It's perfectly possible, and while they'll probably suspect him to be working illegally after 180 days or so, it's difficult to prove.

One other problem is that residence permits are for one country only. Let's say that Dave works in Poland as an IT project manager. He cannot work in Germany or the Czech Republic, as he would need a work permit for those countries.

It was also interesting to read the other week that this is affecting the likes of project teams and IT contractors because individual countries have retained their own work permit regimes

Exactly this. A UK citizen now needs a work permit for each individual country, and some countries in Schengen (hello Switzerland) are especially strict on banning work. A friend of mine recently spent 4 hours in a Swiss police station trying to get them to issue emergency permission to work after a catastrophic event in his company. He was the only person with the know-how, and the Swiss police were *incredibly* unhappy about it as he should have obtained a work permit, but obviously it was a crisis situation that he couldn't predict.

Eventually, the situation was resolved by a rather senior BAZG officer saying that while they couldn't officially grant him a work permit, they would simply not prosecute him as long as he issued them with a daily report about his working activities. He got the work permit within a few days, but the point remained that he couldn't legally work without one.

Simply going “ta da, here is my 1st class ticket, I had one all the time”, is just going to annoy him, and if marked as a pattern lead to scrutiny down the road as to why your using invalid tickets when you have a valid one.

There's absolutely no consequences to using an EU ID card to enter the UK as long as you're a British citizen. The only issue is that it will take longer than a simply 'scan and thank you'.

There is no obligation to do so, when you enter a country you only hold 1 status, as theres only 1 of you.

This is not always the case. Poland, for instance, will ask to see your other travel document if you travel somewhere that a passport is required. For instance, if I travel to Ukraine or Belarus, they will ask to see my British passport if I leave PL on my ID card. I prefer to use my British passport when travelling to those countries (Belarus, for instance, charges PL citizens for health insurance, but UK citizens benefit from some UK-BY agreement on this).

 

[johncrossley]

thats a problem ?

You could just take the UK passport and therefore avoid risking losing both documents.

 

[Chester1]

It was possible, but by all accounts, the UK didn't even bother to really negotiate on many things. The EU themsleves were pushing heavily to get rid of these paper IDs, so biometric-only ID for entry to the UK wouldn't have been a big deal. It was only really Italy that presented a problem, as most other states already had biometric identity cards.



So in turn:

1) Yes, quite possible for the UK to implement border control for flights from the RoI, just as it's done by the Republic from flights from the UK. In fact, it's not entirely uncommon for these flights to be controlled anyway: Aberdeen Airport used to routinely control passengers from Dublin for instance. I'm actually surprised that the UK hasn't introduced border controls on RoI-UK flights, with the possible exception of flights from the RoI to Derry and/or Belfast.

National ID cards are already banned for travel from the RoI to the British Islands (including non-UK territories), with the exception of the Irish passport card, unless they're registered under the EUSS.

2) The problematic part is in bold. The Unionists in NI will not accept carrier ID checks and other forms of policing the internal UK border.

To be honest it does surprise me that arrivals from Ireland don't have to go through passport controls these days. I think (I might be wrong) that internal Irish flights go through immigration control because they are so few in number that its not worth developing facilities and procedures for domestic flights. The flights from Ireland to UK essentially piggy back off what needs to exist for domestic UK flights.

Carrier ID checks and conventional policing already take place for GB-NI journeys its just that the ID checks are hit and miss and policing isn’t often noticable. Its ususally just a couple of police officers if you arrive on ferry in Birkenhead from Belfast for instance and they don't do more than glance at your ID. I think police and Border Force are able to access passenger lists too. ID checks could be universally enforced if Ireland becomes too much of a back door.

I really don't think the EU will be prepared to take the political flack if illegal entry of EU citizens becomes a problem. They got hit over the head repeatedly over their 2 hour long vaccine border in 2021. The UK government would argue that the EU was trying to push them into more checks on the land border. The EUs moral highground on NI depends on them doing their best to keep both Irish and UK internal border open and they have already made many changes to EU law to facilitate that. Once UK ETA launches allowing Ireland to block entry into Ireland of EU citizens they believe are trying to enter UK illegally is something I think the EU will do. It doesn't break the spirit of FOM as Ireland isn't the intended destination and it would support the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement by helping to keep Republic to NI and NI to GB open.

 

[Sm5]

This is not always the case. Poland, for instance, will ask to see your other travel document if you travel somewhere that a passport is required. For instance, if I travel to Ukraine or Belarus, they will ask to see my British passport if I leave PL on my ID card. I prefer to use my British passport when travelling to those countries (Belarus, for instance, charges PL citizens for health insurance, but UK citizens benefit from some UK-BY agreement on this).

thats because your in transit.

if your entering 1 country and exiting to a 3rd country they need to prove you wont get stuck in their country.(Think “Ferry to Hong Kong”). In your example can anyone travel without a passport to Belarus ?.
This is a common question at almost any national border, mostly outside the EU

but with PL nationality going to Poland theres no reason to declare any future travel I would have thought.. your ”arriving home”.

Returning to your example, I had exactly that with poland, travelling 1 way to Russia via Ukraine on 1 way visas. Just to complicate that further, with my UK passport I arrived from the US, and when asked reason for travel, I replied, to visit a Russian Military base…(which was true and I had the official letters of invitation, notarised from the Russian embassy). Poland was ok with it, the Ukrainians locked me up for hours to check, as they quite simply didnt believe it.. The Russians.. well they made it extremely accomodating, but I suspect there were motivations for this.

That was obviously before recent events and in an altogether different time, Y2K.

if you have multiple status, using the stronger hand, and only declaring what is relevent is usually the better card to play. I’m never going to reccomend playing a harder hand than you hold when travelling, it only takes one person to not see it your way..

Whilst you might be “in your rights” entering the UK using EUSS which is not relevent whilst having UK citizenship in your back pocket as an ACE, theres no escaping incompetence in the system… many Windrush arrivals will attest to that…. A friend of mine recieved “exit papers” from the Home Office telling them to wrap up in 14 days, despite holding a UK passport… obviously the outcome was resolved, but its not a hassle you want to wake up and deal with unless you relish that kind of challenge.

This is a major issue in the EU right now. There are a lot of so-called 'digital nomads' working illegally in the EU, and there aren't any effective ways of policing this. Let's take Luke, our American who wants to work remotely while staying in the EU. He spends 90 days in Spain, 90 days in Cyprus, 90 days in Italy and 90 days in Croatia before starting the cycle again. It's perfectly possible, and while they'll probably suspect him to be working illegally after 180 days or so, it's difficult to prove.

He will be paying US income tax. All Americans have to declare income tax irrespective of where they live or work.

Thats why many expat Americans turn in citizenship.
Failing to do so, the US would want to grab him.

U.S. citizens and resident aliens abroad | Internal Revenue Service

Find tax filing and reporting information for U.S. citizens or resident aliens who reside and earn income overseas.

www.irs.gov

The scenario you suggest is in no means unique to the EU, if you move between any country globally most only require valid travel documents to support where you are onwards bound or returning (ticket, passport, visa etc), and proof of means to support yourself (cash/insurance etc) whilst in there territory. Its approaching tipping point where more countries have nomad visas, than dont… once thats reached its easier to coordinate international policing of it.

 

[XAM2175]

My German passport was never stamped entering or leaving the UK. Self scan and off you go.

It wouldn't have been, because the UK didn't stamp passports of EU/EEA citizens while it was also an EU member. It would be stamped now if you entered on certain types of work or study visa (but not as a tourist, as the UK stopped doing for all nationalities in 2019 as part of the expansion of the digital records systems).

2) The problematic part is in bold. The Unionists in NI will not accept carrier ID checks and other forms of policing the internal UK border.

Carrier ID checks and conventional policing already take place for GB-NI journeys its just that the ID checks are hit and miss and policing isn’t often noticable. Its ususally just a couple of police officers if you arrive on ferry in Birkenhead from Belfast for instance and they don't do more than glance at your ID. I think police and Border Force are able to access passenger lists too. ID checks could be universally enforced if Ireland becomes too much of a back door.

Indeed - the powers to conduct controls of persons travelling between GB and NI and vice-versa already exist; they were introduced on a "temporary" basis by the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1974 and continued indefinitely by the Terrorism Act 2000. Immigration officers can additionally exercise their away-from-external-ports powers at any time.

Of course, these differ from routine and comprehensive controls of the sort you'd find at an external port, which would indeed be politically sensitive on a number of fronts.

 

[Cloud Strife]

To be honest it does surprise me that arrivals from Ireland don't have to go through passport controls these days. I think (I might be wrong) that internal Irish flights go through immigration control because they are so few in number that its not worth developing facilities and procedures for domestic flights. The flights from Ireland to UK essentially piggy back off what needs to exist for domestic UK flights.

It is a surprise for me as well, but the UK has been rather more protective of the CTA than the Republic of Ireland has. But at the same time, the RoI flights to the UK still require travellers to go through Customs, unlike domestic UK flights. Stansted is a great example: UK arrivals arrive into a rather small and dingy area for baggage reclaim before exiting directly outside through a dark and dingy corridor, while CTA arrivals are taken by bus to the main International Arrivals area for baggage reclaim, bypassing immigration.

I think however, UK arrivals at Stansted used to exit into the main terminal in previous years, before the large expansion of security there.

Carrier ID checks and conventional policing already take place for GB-NI journeys its just that the ID checks are hit and miss and policing isn’t often noticable. Its ususally just a couple of police officers if you arrive on ferry in Birkenhead from Belfast for instance and they don't do more than glance at your ID. I think police and Border Force are able to access passenger lists too. ID checks could be universally enforced if Ireland becomes too much of a back door.

They could, but given the threats towards Customs officers in Belfast/Larne, it's a very problematic issue. The logical thing to do would be for the entire island of Ireland to form a single mini-Schengen area with Great Britain forming a separate immigration zone, but it's politically impossible.

Once UK ETA launches allowing Ireland to block entry into Ireland of EU citizens they believe are trying to enter UK illegally is something I think the EU will do. It doesn't break the spirit of FOM as Ireland isn't the intended destination and it would support the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement by helping to keep Republic to NI and NI to GB open.

The general attitude of the Irish state is that they will (informally) cooperate with the UK on preventing non-EU citizens from entering if they feel that the state of destination isn't Ireland, but they won't enforce controls on EU citizens. It's a very difficult issue for everyone, because the Irish position is that the UK have to take responsibility for ending FoM. But, at the same time, I think the UK is generally making it very difficult for non-CTA citizens to reside there anyway, so perhaps the Dublin loophole isn't quite as important as it seems.

One possible option for the border with ETA is that the ETA could be issued for free to EU citizens crossing the land border. It still doesn't solve the wider problem however, and it means that there's still no realistic way of knowing whether someone has complied with UK immigration law at the land border. But realistically, the numbers of EU citizens working illegally in NI/GB are probably so low that it's not worth worrying about.

thats because your in transit.

I'm not in transit. I'm leaving a country that I'm a citizen of, directly to country B.

In your example can anyone travel without a passport to Belarus ?.

I don't know about Belarus, but Ukrainian identity cards are valid for crossing the Ukrainian border. I'm not sure if the Belarusian identity cards can be used to cross the external borders of the Union State.

if you have multiple status, using the stronger hand, and only declaring what is relevent is usually the better card to play. I’m never going to reccomend playing a harder hand than you hold when travelling, it only takes one person to not see it your way..

The EU travel document (when in the EU) supersedes everything, just as British citizenship with the right of abode does when entering the UK. They might not be very happy about it, but there's very little that UK or EU border police can do in this situation except tell you off.

Whilst you might be “in your rights” entering the UK using EUSS which is not relevent whilst having UK citizenship in your back pocket as an ACE, theres no escaping incompetence in the system

I'm not using EUSS in this situation, I'm just using the identity card as proof of who I am. All very legal under UK law, as there's no requirement to identify yourself using a British identity document. Windrush was a different situation, because the people affected had British citizenship without any evidence of it. If someone tried to tell me that I wasn't a British citizen, I'd show them my passport with a smile.

He will be paying US income tax. All Americans have to declare income tax irrespective of where they live or work.

He will, but it still represents a problem for the EU.

Immigration officers can additionally exercise their away-from-external-ports powers at any time.

Yes, identical to Schengen rules. A friend's fish factory was once raided in this way, and anyone who didn't have an ID card/passport on them was taken to their home to present it. Fortunately, my friend was quite savvy about this, and he had it as a mandatory condition that anyone working there that wasn't British or Irish (i.e. the vast majority of staff) had to have a travel document with them at work. He was complimented by the guy in charge of the raid for being so thorough and professional, as they also had copies of everyone's documents on file.

 

[Wolfie]

To be honest it does surprise me that arrivals from Ireland don't have to go through passport controls these days. I think (I might be wrong) that internal Irish flights go through immigration control because they are so few in number that its not worth developing facilities and procedures for domestic flights. The flights from Ireland to UK essentially piggy back off what needs to exist for domestic UK flights.

Carrier ID checks and conventional policing already take place for GB-NI journeys its just that the ID checks are hit and miss and policing isn’t often noticable. Its ususally just a couple of police officers if you arrive on ferry in Birkenhead from Belfast for instance and they don't do more than glance at your ID. I think police and Border Force are able to access passenger lists too. ID checks could be universally enforced if Ireland becomes too much of a back door.

I really don't think the EU will be prepared to take the political flack if illegal entry of EU citizens becomes a problem. They got hit over the head repeatedly over their 2 hour long vaccine border in 2021. The UK government would argue that the EU was trying to push them into more checks on the land border. The EUs moral highground on NI depends on them doing their best to keep both Irish and UK internal border open and they have already made many changes to EU law to facilitate that. Once UK ETA launches allowing Ireland to block entry into Ireland of EU citizens they believe are trying to enter UK illegally is something I think the EU will do. It doesn't break the spirit of FOM as Ireland isn't the intended destination and it would support the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement by helping to keep Republic to NI and NI to GB open.

Parts of your last para, unless it can actually be proven that Ireland is not the final destination, are palpably nonsense. Freedom of movement is an EU fundamental and you are deluding yourself if you believe that the EU will allow the UK to influence that at one remove.

 

[Chester1]

Parts of your last para, unless it can actually be proven that Ireland is not the final destination, are palpably nonsense. Freedom of movement is an EU fundamental and you are deluding yourself if you believe that the EU will allow the UK to influence that at one remove.

I was talking about that situation. Many said similar regarding the movement of goods and the EU has been flexible and made changes to EU law to attempt to keep both the land and GB-NI internal border open. If there are too many people abusing the CTA alternative would be to put all arrivals in GB from the republic through full passport controls to limit weak point to NI-GB. That would be straightforward at airports but require an upgrade of port facilities.

 

[EAD]

On the topic of ID cards:

I'm a dual Polish/British citizen, and I went to Ireland last month via the UK in both directions because of the lack of direct flights. I had quite an adventure with my Polish ID card:

- mandatory use of the Polish ID card to leave Poland.
- ID card used for boarding, with a cursory question ("are you resident in the UK?). I lied and said yes, out of idle curiosity.
- Presented my ID card at Luton, and the bloke at immigration was confused when he couldn't find me in the database. I played stupid by pretending not to know the rules, and then he figured out that I was probably a British citizen from the name and accent. He asked (very nicely, I must add) if I had my British passport on me, which I did. If I didn't have it, he said that they could still admit me, but that they'd need to get his boss to verify that I was a British citizen by checking some database that he didn't have access to.
- Polish ID used when boarding in Luton
- Polish ID used on arrival in Dublin. Quite shockingly, the Garda officer on arrival there assumed that I was there to work/was working, and she started a conversation about this! We had a laugh about it, but in hindsight: she wouldn't have asked that if I used my CTA rights. I thought about using my CTA rights by handing over my Polish driving licence which clearly states that I was born in the UK, but I wanted to get to the pub.
- Polish ID card denied for travel to the UK from Dublin (!). The agent claimed that they weren't acceptable, and even when I told her I was a dual citizen, she demanded to see a passport.
- no check on arrival in the UK.
- Polish ID card used for departure from Standard
- Polish ID used when arriving in Poland.



This was largely down to the UK not really complying with the spirit of FoM. Although, as a British citizen, I was definitely asked a few questions in the past, especially on the Slovenian-Croatian border.



Much to my annoyance. It's so much easier to carry a plastic card than a booklet!



The key issue here was that some EU countries (specifically Italy) had major issues with phasing out paper ID cards, and the EU was unwilling to let the UK only accept biometric ID cards. It could have been negotiated, but the UK didn't show any real interest in the topic. As it stands, it's still perfectly possible to fly into Ireland with an ID card, and then travel onwards to the UK without encountering any control and all with a standard ID card. My experience in Dublin Airport seems to have been the exception rather than the norm.



Not guaranteed entry, but in practice, it's very difficult for Ireland to block an EU citizen from entering Ireland. It can only be done in very limited circumstance, and 'intent to breach UK immigration law' is not one of them.



EEA ID card is enough for UK-Ireland flights and reverse.



This is not the case on most borders. I quite routinely travel using my British passport across the Schengen border, and very few countries bother with interrogating British citizens. Spain was one of the exceptions, but in general, they usually just stamp my passport after flicking through it. I have my Polish ID as a backup in case they whine about the stamps/overstays, although my passport (according to the stamps) normally shows that I'm in no man's land somewhere. I just checked, and currently, my passport thinks that I'm stuck on the Croatian/Slovenian border as I deliberately got stamped out of Croatia and then used my ID card to enter Slovenia.

Even with the new arrangements, it's not going to take more than a couple of minutes for most travellers.

As a dual British-Italian national, I can certainly confirm there were limited cohorts of Italians that were not until the last 12 months being issued the biometric ID cards. One of those ironically were those of us living abroad and under a consulate for our admin as there was a delay in having them set up to generate electronic ID cards and so paper was still being used (while in Italy itself the electronic ones have been issued for some time). All electronic ID cards are centrally printed and despatched from just outside Rome.

In terms of travel, I do hold both passports as well as my ID card, but as rule of thumb use the document that allows me to exercise my best rights so e.g. Schengen etry/exit with Italian passport or ID (though for now ID cards in general not accepted on e-gates) and of course UK entry on UK passport. The biggest issue are agency airline staff who are mandated to check before you get on the plane and of course are not experts in the law as well as knowing if they let someone on without a valid entry document they risk the ariline getting a nice fine from e.g. the Home Office. There have already been some overzealous cases where an EU citizen with EUSS has been validly travelling on their linked EU ID card and been wrongly denied boarding or required (wrongly) to demonstrate a passport as "ID cards no longer valid". I came back on the first flight from Munich to Heathrow last Monday and as is now usual for there a document check was conducted pre-boarding - I saw one lady having to dig out her evidence of settled status (which is ironic since the email you get is categorically marked as not being evidence and the HO refuse to give people a physical residency document - not very helpful to either status holders or those asked to check their status).

I was talking about that situation. Many said similar regarding the movement of goods and the EU has been flexible and made changes to EU law to attempt to keep both the land and GB-NI internal border open. If there are too many people abusing the CTA alternative would be to put all arrivals in GB from the republic through full passport controls to limit weak point to NI-GB. That would be straightforward at airports but require an upgrade of port facilities.

Just on CTA flights - those ex UK e.g. at Heathrow go from dedicated gates which have the ability to take your photo at the gate, which is linked to you for the flight and then deleted. From memory it is a matter of set up of the airport layout at e.g. Dublin/Shannon that CTA arrivals are funnelled with all arrivals and so you have to demonstrate you fall under the CTA (but that does not need to be by the classic passport) or otherwise have a right to enter Ireland. In my experience always pleasant and quick.

 

[Chester1]

As a dual British-Italian national, I can certainly confirm there were limited cohorts of Italians that were not until the last 12 months being issued the biometric ID cards. One of those ironically were those of us living abroad and under a consulate for our admin as there was a delay in having them set up to generate electronic ID cards and so paper was still being used (while in Italy itself the electronic ones have been issued for some time). All electronic ID cards are centrally printed and despatched from just outside Rome.

In terms of travel, I do hold both passports as well as my ID card, but as rule of thumb use the document that allows me to exercise my best rights so e.g. Schengen etry/exit with Italian passport or ID (though for now ID cards in general not accepted on e-gates) and of course UK entry on UK passport. The biggest issue are agency airline staff who are mandated to check before you get on the plane and of course are not experts in the law as well as knowing if they let someone on without a valid entry document they risk the ariline getting a nice fine from e.g. the Home Office. There have already been some overzealous cases where an EU citizen with EUSS has been validly travelling on their linked EU ID card and been wrongly denied boarding or required (wrongly) to demonstrate a passport as "ID cards no longer valid". I came back on the first flight from Munich to Heathrow last Monday and as is now usual for there a document check was conducted pre-boarding - I saw one lady having to dig out her evidence of settled status (which is ironic since the email you get is categorically marked as not being evidence and the HO refuse to give people a physical residency document - not very helpful to either status holders or those asked to check their status).


Just on CTA flights - those ex UK e.g. at Heathrow go from dedicated gates which have the ability to take your photo at the gate, which is linked to you for the flight and then deleted. From memory it is a matter of set up of the airport layout at e.g. Dublin/Shannon that CTA arrivals are funnelled with all arrivals and so you have to demonstrate you fall under the CTA (but that does not need to be by the classic passport) or otherwise have a right to enter Ireland. In my experience always pleasant and quick.

The issue of course is not so much people like yourself having Italian paper ID being issued by a consulate but other people having forged Italian paper ID dated 2020 or early 2021 that will remain "valid" for a decade. Media reports suggest this is becoming a significant problem with Albanian migrants entering the EU and some traveling to UK via Ireland. The obvious solution would be for EU members to cancel all non biometric ID and issue replacement biometric ID. That would help EU border security as well as British, Turkish and North Macedonian border security.

The facilities on departure from GB demonstrate there has been a hardening of the CTA border over time. I don't think its a bad thing. I don’t see the CTA as anything more than a necessity due to Northern Ireland's situation. If Ireland unites I would support ending it and replacing it with a treaty modelled on Australia and New Zealand's Trans Tasmin Agreement. For now the situation on flights to Ireland should be replicated for flights from Ireland. That would help avoid introducing full passport checks.

I do think Ireland as a back door gets overblown by the media. If it does become a significant problem then changes will have to be made. We will have to see how things work out once ETIAS and UK ETA have been launched.

 

[najaB]

I understand that there are other reasons why they have chosen to introduce the ETIAS system. But i still think making money is one of the reasons. If it was nothing to do with making money and entirely to do with knowing who is entering and preventing criminals from entering than they would not charge for it and they would make it free for all.

If running a government isn't about making money then why should I pay taxes for anything?

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Funny how different people's experience varies, isn't it?

My (limited) experience of post Brexit travel is of both Spain and the Netherlands putting all the stamps together, with the entrance and exit stamps nicely lined up with each other. (In an idea world some of them wouldn't be upside down though).



My experience is of being questioned more often than not both on entrance and exit, with the questioning on entry being quite detailed - why I was visiting, how long for, where I'd be staying, when I'd leave the EU and how I'd be travelling back.

On the other hand nobody has asked to see evidence of any of the above, or my vaccine certificate even though in principle it was still required.

Have they ever asked you for proof of accommodation or proof of funds?

 

[Sm5]

They could, but given the threats towards Customs officers in Belfast/Larne, it's a very problematic issue. The logical thing to do would be for the entire island of Ireland to form a single mini-Schengen area with Great Britain forming a separate immigration zone, but it's politically impossible.

the EU could sit down with the UK and make mutual recognition of each others standards and rules.

The US is able to do this in agreed levels of movement / trade with the Caribbean, Canada and Mexico, one example is ESTA , thus facilitating travel between those nations and non-US destinations.

There are parts of the EU that cooperate with non-EU countries around it to, so they have their own precedents, however they do also a lot of politicians with historical cultural grievances too, which are much different to the US’s who are usually around trade and control.

As side of political gain theres nothing stopping this for the UK.

pount 1…

The EU travel document (when in the EU) supersedes everything, just as British citizenship with the right of abode does when entering the UK. They might not be very happy about it, but there's very little that UK or EU border police can do in this situation except tell you off.

no
point 2..

I'm not using EUSS in this situation, I'm just using the identity card as proof of who I am. All very legal under UK law, as there's no requirement to identify yourself using a British identity document. Windrush was a different situation, because the people affected had British citizenship without any evidence of it. If someone tried to tell me that I wasn't a British citizen, I'd show them my passport with a smile.

I’m calling BS at points 1 and 2…sorry…

EUID does not supercede a British passport in the UK, and they will reject it except under the following conditions…

Travelling with a national identity card​

You cannot use a national identity card from an EU country, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland or Liechtenstein to enter the UK unless you:

• have settled or pre-settled status under the EU Settlement Scheme, or Jersey, Guernsey or the Isle of Man’s settlement schemes
• have an EU Settlement Scheme family permit, or the equivalent from Jersey, Guernsey or the Isle of Man
• have a Frontier Worker permit
• are an S2 Healthcare Visitor
• are a Swiss national and have a Service Provider from Switzerland visa

Entering the UK

UK border control - passport checks, visas for entering, customs, transiting and layovers.

www.gov.uk

They will consider mitigating circumstances, which includes your latter (of having the correct status).

reading your content it reads to me like a desire to be baiting immigration, by showing something that would cause you immigration issues, but then showing a different status to revalidate yourself.

You already in your opening remarks stated…

I have my Polish ID as a backup in case they whine about the stamps/overstays, although my passport (according to the stamps) normally shows that I'm in no man's land somewhere. I just checked, and currently, my passport thinks that I'm stuck on the Croatian/Slovenian border as I deliberately got stamped out of Croatia and then used my ID card to enter Slovenia.

the next two points..

3. Below shows an admission about lieing for reason to travel..
4. and proof that trying your ID didnt work, but was only admitted because you had a UK passport.

- ID card used for boarding, with a cursory question ("are you resident in the UK?). I lied and said yes, out of idle curiosity.
- Presented my ID card at Luton, and the bloke at immigration was confused when he couldn't find me in the database. I played stupid by pretending not to know the rules, and then he figured out that I was probably a British citizen from the name and accent. He asked (very nicely, I must add) if I had my British passport on me, which I did. If I didn't have it, he said that they could still admit me, but that they'd need to get his boss to verify that I was a British citizen by checking some database that he didn't have access to.

A popular phrase is you can be right and you can be dead right.

Why you’d want to mess with immigration, risk delays, conversations etc is beyond me. There is such a thing as karma, that works both ways.

A friend's fish factory was once raided in this way, and anyone who didn't have an ID card/passport on them was taken to their home to present it.

why would you want to put yourself through this when you dont need to ?

At minimum your work peers will get sniffy and it may affect your career prospects if you rely on reputation for potential employers think by hiring you they may have an unknown liability in the future ?

if the employer is hiring illegals they are going for a very difficult ride.

 

[busestrains]

Belarus and Russia do not have any identity cards like other European countries. A passport is the one and only form of identification in Belarus and Russia currently. So to answer the question made earlier nobody can travel to Belarus or Russia without a passport however you can travel between Belarus and Russia without any identification (at least by land) as these two countries have formed their own version of the Schengen area.

I have never understood the point of why so many of the mainland European countries have ID cards. Every country already have an ID called a passport so why have two. It makes no sense to have two documents when you only need one. A passport is an ID so why would someone want both an ID card and a passport (or why even have two options) when just a passport does the same job. I think the UK is much more sensible here as we just have passports.

Maybe what countries should really be doing is making our passports easier and cheaper to get. In fact perhaps making them free of charge would be good. I see no reason why we could not make passports free. ENCTS passes are free and the councils often struggle with receiving enough money from the government so i see no reason why they could not make passports free. It would make it nice and easy and simple for anyone to get a passport and then everyone would have an ID they could use.

So instead of identification cards i think that passports are the real way forward. If i was in charge i would scrap identification cards for all countries and just use the passport which would solve so many issues.

 

[Sm5]

You could just take the UK passport and therefore avoid risking losing both documents.

yes you can, as long as 90 in 180 is sufficient for your needs.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

As a dual British-Italian national, I can certainly confirm there were limited cohorts of Italians that were not until the last 12 months being issued the biometric ID cards. One of those ironically were those of us living abroad and under a consulate for our admin as there was a delay in having them set up to generate electronic ID cards and so paper was still being used (while in Italy itself the electronic ones have been issued for some time). All electronic ID cards are centrally printed and despatched from just outside Rome.

In terms of travel, I do hold both passports as well as my ID card, but as rule of thumb use the document that allows me to exercise my best rights so e.g. Schengen etry/exit with Italian passport or ID (though for now ID cards in general not accepted on e-gates) and of course UK entry on UK passport. The biggest issue are agency airline staff who are mandated to check before you get on the plane and of course are not experts in the law as well as knowing if they let someone on without a valid entry document they risk the ariline getting a nice fine from e.g. the Home Office. There have already been some overzealous cases where an EU citizen with EUSS has been validly travelling on their linked EU ID card and been wrongly denied boarding or required (wrongly) to demonstrate a passport as "ID cards no longer valid". I came back on the first flight from Munich to Heathrow last Monday and as is now usual for there a document check was conducted pre-boarding - I saw one lady having to dig out her evidence of settled status (which is ironic since the email you get is categorically marked as not being evidence and the HO refuse to give people a physical residency document - not very helpful to either status holders or those asked to check their status).


Just on CTA flights - those ex UK e.g. at Heathrow go from dedicated gates which have the ability to take your photo at the gate, which is linked to you for the flight and then deleted. From memory it is a matter of set up of the airport layout at e.g. Dublin/Shannon that CTA arrivals are funnelled with all arrivals and so you have to demonstrate you fall under the CTA (but that does not need to be by the classic passport) or otherwise have a right to enter Ireland. In my experience always pleasant and quick.

I'm also half British half Italian. I have a British passport and an Italian ID card. So I would be allowed to, for example, enter/exit Italy using my Italian ID card, and enter/exit UK using my British passport?

 

[Sm5]

Belarus and Russia do not have any identity cards like other European countries. A passport is the one and only form of identification in Belarus and Russia currently. So to answer the question made earlier nobody can travel to Belarus or Russia without a passport however you can travel between Belarus and Russia without any identification (at least by land) as these two countries have formed their own version of the Schengen area.

I have never understood the point of why so many of the mainland European countries have ID cards. Every country already have an ID called a passport so why have two. It makes no sense to have two documents when you only need one. A passport is an ID so why would someone want both an ID card and a passport (or why even have two options) when just a passport does the same job. I think the UK is much more sensible here as we just have passports.

Maybe what countries should really be doing is making our passports easier and cheaper to get. In fact perhaps making them free of charge would be good. I see no reason why we could not make passports free. ENCTS passes are free and the councils often struggle with receiving enough money from the government so i see no reason why they could not make passports free. It would make it nice and easy and simple for anyone to get a passport and then everyone would have an ID they could use.

So instead of identification cards i think that passports are the real way forward. If i was in charge i would scrap identification cards for all countries and just use the passport which would solve so many issues.

Having an ID card does not espow having citizenship of a country. It gives certain rights to the holder, to access services within that country or territory… such as proof of age, opening a bank account, getting a job etc.
Holders do not have to be citizens.
In the US a driving licence doubles up in this role, but for those without a right to drive, an ID card is available.

The UK does have one of these, its called a Biometric Residence Card, permanent residents (non UK citizens) have access to these and return them upon citizenship and getting a passport,it is a supporting document at immigration.

In older days countries under Soviet influence you needed two passports, one for travel beyond the USSR (which was issued just prior and turned in upon return travel to destinations outside the USSR), and another for travel within.
This isnt really different to having an ID and having a passport. As eluded to earlier, getting a PL is harder, they can be withdrawn / refused, even if you have a Polish passport.

Ive never understood why the UK is so objectionable towards ID cards, if following the US example a driving licence could fulfill a similar role, with a non-DL version for those without right to drive. Instead people put up with printing bank statements, ultility bills and showing passports etc.

As regards costs, thats a UK thing.. other countries do offer this for negligable amounts (I just paid £7 for a Polish passport on friday)...I paid £152 for a British one via the equivalent expedited channel and timescale.

As eluded to earlier having a PL ID is harder if your not in residence (a quick check on tax affairs could confirm this, and it can be withdrawn if misused, despite having a Polish passport).. the two are not mutually linked, but obviously is a loophole used to advantage for travel and services in other EU countries, until notes are aligned and tightened…(which is why imo i’d err towards not poking a hornets nest using one incorrectly).

This discrepency is maybe why the UK doesnt recognise EU ID cards.. they prove ID, not an individual EU state citizenship… you could be a North Korean, with a Schengen visa issued for Poland, and still hold a Polish EU ID that is quite definitely outside the remit of EU states rights to visit the UK… but you could do quite well navigating the EU with it, until caught.

 

[philthetube]

Is there a risk of people different documents having issues because they try to enter a country more than once when the system thinks they are already there?

 

[biko]

Having an ID card does not espow having citizenship of a country.

It does for most countries. A Dutch ID card is for example only available to Dutch citizens and I believe this applies to all EU countries. Next to ID cards, other cards exists, such as residency permits which have some similarities, but are not interchangeable with ID cards.

 

[philg999]

So instead of identification cards i think that passports are the real way forward. If i was in charge i would scrap identification cards for all countries and just use the passport which would solve so many issues.

In many countries you are obliged to carry your ID card with you at all times. That isn’t at all practical to do with a passport! Also some countries’ ID cards contain information about what the holder is eligible for eg whether they are entitled to claim benefits. This information does not belong on a passport.

 

[johncrossley]

I'm also half British half Italian. I have a British passport and an Italian ID card. So I would be allowed to, for example, enter/exit Italy using my Italian ID card, and enter/exit UK using my British passport?

Why wouldn't that be allowed? You can of course just use your British passport for short stays in Italy. Taking the ID card just means you don't need to worry about stamping or answering probing questions.

 

[philg999]

Why wouldn't that be allowed? You can of course just use your British passport for short stays in Italy. Taking the ID card just means you don't need to worry about stamping or answering probing questions.

You can’t travel to Italy on a British passport if you don’t have a ticket booked to take you out of Schengen within the next 90 days. If the person did not know their return travel date it would be better to travel on an EU id card. It’s also often faster to check in for a flight to the EU with an EU passport/id card - with a British one they may need to screen you physically when giving you a boarding pass

 

[Sm5]

It does for most countries. A Dutch ID card is for example only available to Dutch citizens and I believe this applies to all EU countries. Next to ID cards, other cards exists, such as residency permits which have some similarities, but are not interchangeable with ID cards.

Not true for all countries. (i dont know Holland), but i’m In Poland right now navigating this here, this week, spending hours in line doing it.

Historically, Ive held government issued ID cards, acceptable for travel etc.. whilst not being a citizen of that country. I did hold valid visas permitting me to live, work and get a social security number, and get that ID card.. but renewing it once the visa expired was obviously not possible, and I was never a citizen of those countries, just a temporary resident employment visa.

As mentioned several times, the UK doesnt have one for its citizens.

The ID card and a passport are separate, but obviously to most citizens of that country the difference may be taken for granted. Of course each country is sovereign and makes its own rules… This maybe an EU weakness, as there is no “EU” ID card, just recognition of each others, even if they may not be equivalent in issuance criteria.

I assume at somepoint the EU nations will give up sovereignty and a centralised EU ID with a single EU passport & single EU visa policy may arise, probably managed by Frontex.

heres the EU ID proposal for its citizens

European Digital Identity

The EU is creating a personal digital wallet for every EU citizen to use for both online and offline public and private services across the EU. Find out more.

ec.europa.eu

and of course the well known up coming one for foreigners

ETIAS

That would surely blow away the various myriads of standards and weed out chancers. After this the EU passport will surely follow.

 

[miklcct]

It does for most countries. A Dutch ID card is for example only available to Dutch citizens and I believe this applies to all EU countries. Next to ID cards, other cards exists, such as residency permits which have some similarities, but are not interchangeable with ID cards.

I'm not sure if Hong Kong is also in the minority as well like Poland but, an HKID card is a compulsory proof of residence, with or without "citizenship".

A passport is a proof of nationality, again, which may not be a proof of citizenship as various countries, including the UK, has various forms of non-citizen nationality. The UK itself has 6 forms of nationality, only 1 of them (British Citizen) is a citizenship.

I don't know if there are any exceptions, but to my knowledge,
1. A national ID card is always a valid form of travel document to enter or exit its own border.
2. One should always use a travel document indicating citizenship to travel from / to his country of citizenship. Not using it is at least inviting trouble, or in some countries, even illegal, for example, the USA.

 

[Chester1]

Belarus and Russia do not have any identity cards like other European countries. A passport is the one and only form of identification in Belarus and Russia currently. So to answer the question made earlier nobody can travel to Belarus or Russia without a passport however you can travel between Belarus and Russia without any identification (at least by land) as these two countries have formed their own version of the Schengen area.

I have never understood the point of why so many of the mainland European countries have ID cards. Every country already have an ID called a passport so why have two. It makes no sense to have two documents when you only need one. A passport is an ID so why would someone want both an ID card and a passport (or why even have two options) when just a passport does the same job. I think the UK is much more sensible here as we just have passports.

Maybe what countries should really be doing is making our passports easier and cheaper to get. In fact perhaps making them free of charge would be good. I see no reason why we could not make passports free. ENCTS passes are free and the councils often struggle with receiving enough money from the government so i see no reason why they could not make passports free. It would make it nice and easy and simple for anyone to get a passport and then everyone would have an ID they could use.

So instead of identification cards i think that passports are the real way forward. If i was in charge i would scrap identification cards for all countries and just use the passport which would solve so many issues.

Western countries passports are very expensive to make because of numerous features designed to make them impossible to counterfeit. Many poorer countries make passports that cost less than £85 but the cheaper they are the easier fakes are to make. I think the future is every country having fully digital borders, making passport stamps redundant. That would enable biometric passport cards to replace paper passports but its a long time off. In the mean time I would be happy to pay another £20 or something like that for an Irish style passport card if I could use it to go to EU and EEA countries without carying a full passport.

Having an ID card does not espow having citizenship of a country. It gives certain rights to the holder, to access services within that country or territory… such as proof of age, opening a bank account, getting a job etc.
Holders do not have to be citizens.
In the US a driving licence doubles up in this role, but for those without a right to drive, an ID card is available.

The UK does have one of these, its called a Biometric Residence Card, permanent residents (non UK citizens) have access to these and return them upon citizenship and getting a passport,it is a supporting document at immigration.

In older days countries under Soviet influence you needed two passports, one for travel beyond the USSR (which was issued just prior and turned in upon return travel to destinations outside the USSR), and another for travel within.
This isnt really different to having an ID and having a passport. As eluded to earlier, getting a PL is harder, they can be withdrawn / refused, even if you have a Polish passport.

Ive never understood why the UK is so objectionable towards ID cards, if following the US example a driving licence could fulfill a similar role, with a non-DL version for those without right to drive. Instead people put up with printing bank statements, ultility bills and showing passports etc.

As regards costs, thats a UK thing.. other countries do offer this for negligable amounts (I just paid £7 for a Polish passport on friday)...I paid £152 for a British one via the equivalent expedited channel and timescale.

As eluded to earlier having a PL ID is harder if your not in residence (a quick check on tax affairs could confirm this, and it can be withdrawn if misused, despite having a Polish passport).. the two are not mutually linked, but obviously is a loophole used to advantage for travel and services in other EU countries, until notes are aligned and tightened…(which is why imo i’d err towards not poking a hornets nest using one incorrectly).

This discrepency is maybe why the UK doesnt recognise EU ID cards.. they prove ID, not an individual EU state citizenship… you could be a North Korean, with a Schengen visa issued for Poland, and still hold a Polish EU ID that is quite definitely outside the remit of EU states rights to visit the UK… but you could do quite well navigating the EU with it, until caught.

Biometric Residence Permits are being phased out and gone entirely on 1st January 2025. A friend of mine was quite concerned when they got a card that expired 31st December 2024... I researched it and realised why. The problem with BRPs for proof of right to work or rent is that very good counterfeit cards can be made. They don't contain data so wouldn't get you through e gates but they can fool the average employer or landlord who will look at and scan them. The share code system on gov.uk is much more secure although a little more hassle.

 

[philg999]

n rules… This maybe an EU weakness, as there is no “EU” ID card, just recognition of each others, even if they may not be equivalent in issuance criteria.

I assume at somepoint the EU nations will give up sovereignty and a centralised EU ID with a single EU passport & single EU visa policy may arise, probably managed by Frontex.

heres the EU ID proposal for its citizens

European Digital Identity

The EU is creating a personal digital wallet for every EU citizen to use for both online and offline public and private services across the EU. Find out more.

ec.europa.eu

This is simply a proposal for an EU wide username and password to access government services (like the government gateway id in the UK. Digid in NL. Etc). It’s nothing to do with proving your identity in a real world context.

 

[Sm5]

This is simply a proposal for an EU wide username and password to access government services (like the government gateway id in the UK. Digid in NL. Etc). It’s nothing to do with proving your identity in a real world context.

but it quacks…

European Digital Identity

The EU is creating a personal digital wallet for every EU citizen to use for both online and offline public and private services across the EU. Find out more.

ec.europa.eu

Operated via digital wallets available on mobile phone apps and other devices to:

• identify online and offline
• store and exchange information provided by governments e.g. name, surname, date of birth, nationality
• store and exchange the information provided by trusted private sources
• use the information as confirmation of the right to reside, to work, or to study in a certain Member State

And it waddles…

The European Digital Identity can be used for any number of cases, for example:

• public services such as requesting birth certificates, medical certificates, reporting a change of address
• opening a bank account
• filing tax returns
• applying for a university, at home or in another Member State
• storing a medical prescription that can be used anywhere in Europe
• proving your age
• renting a car using a digital driving license
• checking in to a hotel

And it flaps wings, floats in water and has many colours…

Using the European Digital Identity: applying for a bank loan​

Applying for a bank loan is a process that typically includes numerous steps, from setting up appointments and having physical meetings, to collecting and signing all the paper documents - and repeating the operation if documents are missing.

By using the European Digital Identity, the user only has to select the necessary documents that are stored locally on his digital wallet to reply to the bank’s request. Then, verifiable digital documents are created and sent securely for verification to the bank, who can then continue with the application process.

it passes my duck test

As trusted private sources includes rail, air travel and hotels, access to banking, medical and education… then i’m ordering hoisin sauce, cucumber, spring onion and pancakes, because it’ll be oven roasted and served up whole… its looks EuroDuck in that tin.

I suspect without it, your going to be very restricted in what you can do in the EU without it…. Indeed it would be a neccessity, even for non-EU nation citizens living legally in the EU… as its Establishing identity.

If its like the UAE system, it can shut you down in minutes too, locking you out of everything you had, including your money and giving full control to authorities and an easy way to locate/isolate anyone as soon as the computer says “No”…Employers in the UAE are known to threaten to exercise their use of this trusted system to ensure foreign employees stay in line…

its an Excellant enforcement tool, for both criminal and civil uses… late paying that electric bill in Holland because your on a beach in Greece…just one API call later and a 1 turns to a 0, next time you show that Digital ID suddenly your hotel cant check in, you cant fly home, your banks frozen your credit card doesnt work until you present yourself to the local Greek police and resolve it and turn the No back to a Yes, with maybe the odd baksheesh having to be paid to the commandant to speed it up. Now if the ID was linked to GPS on a smart phone…

 

[EAD]

The issue of course is not so much people like yourself having Italian paper ID being issued by a consulate but other people having forged Italian paper ID dated 2020 or early 2021 that will remain "valid" for a decade. Media reports suggest this is becoming a significant problem with Albanian migrants entering the EU and some traveling to UK via Ireland. The obvious solution would be for EU members to cancel all non biometric ID and issue replacement biometric ID. That would help EU border security as well as British, Turkish and North Macedonian border security.

The facilities on departure from GB demonstrate there has been a hardening of the CTA border over time. I don't think its a bad thing. I don’t see the CTA as anything more than a necessity due to Northern Ireland's situation. If Ireland unites I would support ending it and replacing it with a treaty modelled on Australia and New Zealand's Trans Tasmin Agreement. For now the situation on flights to Ireland should be replicated for flights from Ireland. That would help avoid introducing full passport checks.

I do think Ireland as a back door gets overblown by the media. If it does become a significant problem then changes will have to be made. We will have to see how things work out once ETIAS and UK ETA have been launched.

Well that is lovely, except 1) I don't have a paper ID (and I do chuckle at your idea of telling citizens validly issued an ID card by their country that sorry it is not no longer valid because some bloke in the UK says you need a digital one now) 2) I would obviously enter the UK on my UK documentation as a UK national and 3) your various ramblings remind me you don't really know very much about this subject, but of course you are entitled to your opinions and I will defend your right to spout them irrespective.

Why wouldn't that be allowed? You can of course just use your British passport for short stays in Italy. Taking the ID card just means you don't need to worry about stamping or answering probing questions.

I'm also half British half Italian. I have a British passport and an Italian ID card. So I would be allowed to, for example, enter/exit Italy using my Italian ID card, and enter/exit UK using my British passport?

Ciao! Happy to talk by DM of course. Just to be clear you can of course use your Italian ID to enter e.g. Italy and leave it (though that will need you to see a poliziotta/o rather than the e-gates). You can use your UK passport if you want, but unless you explain and can demonstrate you are Italian you will be assumed to be entering as a UK national and stamped (and so only able to enter as a tourist into Schengen). I have experience of travelling to Italy where I was Italian but for various reasons had neither my ID card or Italian Passport - I had extracts of my details with me so could prove at the border I was Italian and was allowed in on UK passport with it not being stamped in or out as I could demonstrate I was entering my country. Of course that wouldn't really work on a non Italian Schengen border and they would just stamp the UK passport like any other tourist.

Just to note if coming back to the UK, then I would use my UK passport to travel (as it shows you have a right to enter UK, but of course if you entered e.g. Italy on ID then use that at the Italian departure border check too - same in same out). So e.g. my routine back to UK is UK passport at check in, Italian at Schengen exit border, UK from then on in so at gate and on UK entry border after landing.

Oh finally as to the debate about ID cards - there seems to be some confusion on the idea of a card that is a residency permit and an ID card issued to a national and so valid for travel. I can't comment for Poland but Italy does define ID Card and Passport differently in law and indeed many countries do around what is proof of ID and proof of nationality. That said my card clearly gives my details from a citizens register perpsective, my biometrics and states I am Italian. I recall when in Belgium the same standard format is used for the residency permit, but clearly states on back I am not Belgian and gives the nationality. As a result it was not an ID card in the sense of an EEA ID card for travel.

On digital ID - this is a long running programme and in many countries like Germany you can use a chip/card reader for your ID card to identify yourself for government services. Same in Italy and its related SPID system for accessing services.

Western countries passports are very expensive to make because of numerous features designed to make them impossible to counterfeit. Many poorer countries make passports that cost less than £85 but the cheaper they are the easier fakes are to make. I think the future is every country having fully digital borders, making passport stamps redundant. That would enable biometric passport cards to replace paper passports but its a long time off. In the mean time I would be happy to pay another £20 or something like that for an Irish style passport card if I could use it to go to EU and EEA countries without carying a full passport.



Biometric Residence Permits are being phased out and gone entirely on 1st January 2025. A friend of mine was quite concerned when they got a card that expired 31st December 2024... I researched it and realised why. The problem with BRPs for proof of right to work or rent is that very good counterfeit cards can be made. They don't contain data so wouldn't get you through e gates but they can fool the average employer or landlord who will look at and scan them. The share code system on gov.uk is much more secure although a little more hassle.

The share code system has one massive problem - noone outside the UK knows what it is and it also shaky. Sod all use when you are looking to board your flight back to your place of legal residence and the airline agent asks for proof of residency status. Going digital is a nice idea in principle, but people need something physical for those situations to avoid unnecessary stress and wrongful denial of boarding.