National Grid, payment not to use electricity and the cost and risk of generation strategy.

[The Lad]

National Grid are encouraging electricity distribution companies to introduce schemes to allow customers to be paid for saving electricity at peak times typically 1600-1900 for those customers with smart meters.
I get the impression that for Public Relations reasons they are looking at a reduction against past use rather than increasing the cost at the peak but does anyone know how any of the distribution companies are implementing this?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The below link provides some information. Looks like you'll need a smart meter, a participating supplier (OVO and Octopus are mentioned), and to have opted in.

Off peak energy rebate scheme begins 23 January, National Grid confirms

National Grid launches its first off peak energy rebate scheme this week, which is designed to stave off blackout warnings this winter

www.homebuilding.co.uk

Extracts...

Off peak energy rebate scheme launches — here's how to save £100 by lowering your usage

National Grid's off peak energy rebate scheme begins this month, and you could save £20 per month if your supplier participates.

A new off peak energy rebate scheme called the Demand Flexibility Service has launched where certain suppliers will give households rebates for not using electricity during peak usage times.

Households could reportedly save up to £10 a day for using appliances at off-peak times, but this will depend on your suppliers’ rates.

 

[davews]

Octopus have announced such a scheme - https://octopus.energy/blog/results-big-dirty-turn-down-trial-paid-off-peak-energy/ In reality for many people the savings will be minimal. I only use around 5kWH per day with cooking done at lunch time so my consumption in the evening is minimal and whatever I did I would not save anything like 1kWH then.

 

[duncanp]

Sounds like a bribe to cajole people into using smart meters.

Surely there will be a big surge in demand at 7pm if people have been paid not to use electricity between 4pm and 7pm, which will therefore mean that the peak demand time will shift.

We have seen this on the railways with the infamous 7:15pm train out of Paddington, and Avanti have made Fridays off peak all day in order to smooth out demand for travel and prevent artificial overcrowding due to peak time ticket restrictions.

And there will be complaints about noise if people are using loud appliances like a washing machine on the spin cycle at 5am.

 

[Domh245]

Sounds like a bribe to cajole people into using smart meters.

You mean, a genuinely useful way to manage demand and therefore reduce generation costs and challenges?

Surely there will be a big surge in demand at 7pm if people have been paid not to use electricity between 4pm and 7pm, which will therefore mean that the peak demand time will shift.

Only if they get the pricing wrong, and lock it in. The idea is to turn the evening peak into a lower but more sustained demand (flattening the curve, if you will..) - so the normal drop that would occur is replaced by the "surge" as the shifted demand comes on - electricity demand is fairly well understood by this point, so hopefully they'll be able to set the prices at the right levels to achieve the desired effect

And there will be complaints about noise if people are using loud appliances like a washing machine on the spin cycle at 5am.

Quite possibly, but then again people have been doing overnight laundry to take advantage of economy 7 rates since the late 70s. Of course, given the advanced notice people are given of the need to demand shift, some people may be able to do their laundry earlier in the day to achieve the same effect, or immediately after the end of their reduction period - no need to default straight to 5AM!

 

[Dai Corner]

Sounds great. I'm usually in the pub at these times and £10 would pay for my beer!

Seriously though, if it saves firing up the most polluting power stations and/or load shedding it's to be welcomed.

 

[jfollows]

It sounds better than it would be for me. I'd participate if there were a benefit but i don't see it.
I used to live in a flat and had Economy 7 and storage radiators, of course it made sense for differential pricing there.
Now I live at home and tend to cook (gas hob, electric oven) until 1pm and 5pm. So little benefit there. I use a lot of electricity (computers etc) but not a lot of gas.
I use the washing machine typically 8am to mid-day. I'd switch to overnight if that were a benefit; in winter it helps warm up the room anyway because it's the downstairs shower room. But I don't tend to use it 4pm-7pm today anyway.
Heating is on 6:30-9 and 16:00-22:00. I'm not going to change this unless there's a lot on offer. My gas bill isn't huge anyway.
I had a smart meter installed earlier this year (I held off for a long time but now I'm happy with my decision) and I'm with British Gas following two failed cheaper suppliers, so I'll watch with interest, but at the moment it looks more like good publicity than a real saving to me.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

You mean, a genuinely useful way to manage demand and therefore reduce generation costs and challenges?



Only if they get the pricing wrong, and lock it in. The idea is to turn the evening peak into a lower but more sustained demand (flattening the curve, if you will..) - so the normal drop that would occur is replaced by the "surge" as the shifted demand comes on - electricity demand is fairly well understood by this point, so hopefully they'll be able to set the prices at the right levels to achieve the desired effect

View attachment 123640



Quite possibly, but then again people have been doing overnight laundry to take advantage of economy 7 rates since the late 70s. Of course, given the advanced notice people are given of the need to demand shift, some people may be able to do their laundry earlier in the day to achieve the same effect, or immediately after the end of their reduction period - no need to default straight to 5AM!

I note usage in winter is higher than summer (entirely predictable). The summer peak is much less significant which, as people cook and wash clothes throughout the year, suggests that there is 'something' beyond that. Lighting in winter will be part of it but how much of that 1600-1900 lump is people returning home and heating their homes rather than cooking / washing etc? I can't see people coming home from work and sitting in a cold house for upto three hours. To enjoy the benefits of this scheme, some people could delay their return home eg by working late or visiting the pub to spend their 'winnings' but for most that will not be a realistic option eg families.

 

[GusB]

I tend to run my washing machine in the morning and air dry my clothes. The only time I'm likely to use a lot of energy is when I'm cooking, but I often have dinner after 7pm anyway. I'm on my own so it's easy for me to be flexible about mealtimes. Besides, if they want to pay me to use less between 4 and 7pm I might just treat myself to the occasional pub meal instead and benefit from the heat from their wood burner.

I haven't seen anything from EDF about this scheme yet, but I'd be happy to participate.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I haven't seen anything from EDF about this scheme yet, but I'd be happy to participate.

So which Leccy suppliers have started to roll out the scheme already? Just Octopus?

Believe the Ovo scheme mentioned upthread in post #2 isn't actually directly linked to the National Grid initiative.

 

[skyhigh]

Lighting in winter will be part of it but how much of that 1600-1900 lump is people returning home and heating their homes rather than cooking / washing etc? I can't see people coming home from work and sitting in a cold house for upto three hours.

Firstly for anyone with gas central heating, they would be unaffected. Anyone with electric heating can choose to only heat certain rooms, say, which will reduce consumption and mean they benefit. But on the other hand - it's not a punitive scheme. If you don't want to/can't reduce your consumption, you won't be any worse off.

We have seen this on the railways with the infamous 7:15pm train out of Paddington, and Avanti have made Fridays off peak all day in order to smooth out demand for travel and prevent artificial overcrowding due to peak time ticket restrictions.

Octopus did a trial last winter along similar lines (although different in execution). If you used a certain % less electricity in the timeslot compared to your average over the past week, the energy you used in that timeslot was free. Data from that trial has been used for this so I assume they are aware of the potential effects after the peak ends. One thing they did was to offer different timeslots to different households in the same region - which means the cliff edge was smoothed out.

Sounds like a bribe to cajole people into using smart meters.

I really don't get the amount of tin-foil hattery over smart meters. I'm very happy with mine, I'm offered a genuinely innovative tariff that gives me a guaranteed 6 hours at an off-peak rate plus additional 'bonus' periods throughout the day when CO2 emissions from power generation are low. That couldn't exist without smart meters.

 

[Domh245]

It's also worth looking at the National Grid ESO winter outlook, which helps contextualise the programme. They expect a 2GW impact from deploying this, against a typical anticipated demand of around 40-45GW, so 'only' around a 5% instantaneous saving (when averaged out across the entire grid)

Also of note is their published list of providers who are signed up to the Demand Flexibility Service, which includes a lot of non-domestic suppliers, which is where I'd expect a lot of the savings could be realised

 

[Kite159]

First they will try to pay people to use less electric during a particular time period, but when they fails the next step will be charging surge prices for electric used for a particular time period.
Using those ever so smart meters which can send readings every hour.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

First they will try to pay people to use less electric during a particular time period, but when they fails the next step will be charging surge prices for electric used for a particular time period.
Using those ever so smart meters which can send readings every hour.

More frequent than every hour (15 minutes?) and can you 'surge price' when the unit price is capped? There already exists multi-tariffs such as Economy 7, perhaps they could introduce 'Non-economy 3' for between 1600 and 1900 at x times the normal daytime rate.

I have no problem with the theory behind this trial but am concerned about its complexity. Time based tariffs would be the answer my reservations being how much notice you get of the tariffs and how frequently they change. Make it too complex and people will simply carry on as normal then (quite rightly) yelp when they receive the bill.

 

[Noddy]

I really don't get the amount of tin-foil hattery over smart meters. I'm very happy with mine, I'm offered a genuinely innovative tariff that gives me a guaranteed 6 hours at an off-peak rate plus additional 'bonus' periods throughout the day when CO2 emissions from power generation are low. That couldn't exist without smart meters.

Don’t you know that smart meters are a massive conspiracy by dark government forces to control the masses. Those idiots who had the covid vaccine have got chips in them now which can be activated at any time by smart meters, 5G and high voltage power lines…

On a more serious note this is probably only going to be relevant for the next 10 or so years, maybe less. Once EV and vehicle to grid becomes widely adopted the peaks and troughs in the current (no pun intended!) electricity market will be flattened out.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I wonder if the peak on those graphs is all those electric trains taking people home. De-electrify I say .

I note usage in winter is higher than summer (entirely predictable). The summer peak is much less significant which, as people cook and wash clothes throughout the year, suggests that there is 'something' beyond that. Lighting in winter will be part of it but how much of that 1600-1900 lump is people returning home and heating their homes rather than cooking / washing etc? I can't see people coming home from work and sitting in a cold house for upto three hours. To enjoy the benefits of this scheme, some people could delay their return home eg by working late or visiting the pub to spend their 'winnings' but for most that will not be a realistic option eg families.

The peak 16:00-19:00 probably corresponds to heating coming on and working flat out to get unheated houses up to temperature for when the occupants come home from work. Wonder how homeworking will have affected that. Plus there is evening meal cooking time.

Another mitigation would be staying at work for a few hours overtime and then getting a rebate on my leccy bill !.

Firstly for anyone with gas central heating, they would be unaffected. Anyone with electric heating can choose to only heat certain rooms, say, which will reduce consumption and mean they benefit. But on the other hand - it's not a punitive scheme. If you don't want to/can't reduce your consumption, you won't be any worse off.


Octopus did a trial last winter along similar lines (although different in execution). If you used a certain % less electricity in the timeslot compared to your average over the past week, the energy you used in that timeslot was free. Data from that trial has been used for this so I assume they are aware of the potential effects after the peak ends. One thing they did was to offer different timeslots to different households in the same region - which means the cliff edge was smoothed out.


I really don't get the amount of tin-foil hattery over smart meters. I'm very happy with mine, I'm offered a genuinely innovative tariff that gives me a guaranteed 6 hours at an off-peak rate plus additional 'bonus' periods throughout the day when CO2 emissions from power generation are low. That couldn't exist without smart meters.

I agree it is better to give people some choice on how much they use and when. Better than power cuts.

First they will try to pay people to use less electric during a particular time period, but when they fails the next step will be charging surge prices for electric used for a particular time period.
Using those ever so smart meters which can send readings every hour.

Simplest will be power cuts.

More frequent than every hour (15 minutes?) and can you 'surge price' when the unit price is capped? There already exists multi-tariffs such as Economy 7, perhaps they could introduce 'Non-economy 3' for between 1600 and 1900 at x times the normal daytime rate.

I have no problem with the theory behind this trial but am concerned about its complexity. Time based tariffs would be the answer my reservations being how much notice you get of the tariffs and how frequently they change. Make it too complex and people will simply carry on as normal then (quite rightly) yelp when they receive the bill.

Simplest will be power cuts.

The advantage of this complexity is if enough people are frugal, we all get to keep the lights on 16:00-19:00. Also those of us with gas central heating will be able to keep warm - remember the gas boiler uses some electricity so wont work without electricity.

Don’t you know that smart meters are a massive conspiracy by dark government forces to control the masses. Those idiots who had the covid vaccine have got chips in them now which can be activated at any time by smart meters, 5G and high voltage power lines…

On a more serious note this is probably only going to be relevant for the next 10 or so years, maybe less. Once EV and vehicle to grid becomes widely adopted the peaks and troughs in the current (no pun intended!) electricity market will be flattened out.

I recently took the chips in arms theory argument up with someone. I have missed my Covid vaccinations due to an allergy (not entirely proven but too risky). I complained that I was worried that I might get someone elses chip as well as mine (six shots from one jar irrc). Or worse still I might get no chip at all. So unfair. He really thought my concerns added to his belief in the chips theory !.

So - is a power cut less sinister than a smart meter ?.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I wonder if the peak on those graphs is all those electric trains taking people home. De-electrify I say .

The advantage of this complexity is if enough people are frugal, we all get to keep the lights on 16:00-19:00. Also those of us with gas central heating will be able to keep warm - remember the gas boiler uses some electricity so wont work without electricity.

1) I say just cut the trains at those times. Those of us benefiting from East Midlands Railway Regional already have this option handed to us.
2) Whereas those of us who are all electric will have no means of heating, never mind cooking and lighting. That'll be good for keeping up the excess deaths figures and populating the A & E queue.

 

[GusB]

2) Whereas those of us who are all electric will have no means of heating, never mind cooking and lighting. That'll be good for keeping up the excess deaths figures and populating the A & E queue.

Three hours with the heating off isn't such a huge sacrifice. I've got an air-source heat pump that relies solely on electricity to operate. I could easily make sure that the house is sufficiently warm before the peak period starts. Compared to the previous storage heaters that I had in the house, I should be able to bring the temperature back up after 7pm.

This scheme won't work for everyone, but if it rewards those who are prepared to be a bit more flexible in their energy use, I'm all for it. This is primarily a railway forum and we know that better deals can be had by not travelling at peak times. Why should it be any different for energy consumption?

 

[Dai Corner]

Three hours with the heating off isn't such a huge sacrifice. I've got an air-source heat pump that relies solely on electricity to operate. I could easily make sure that the house is sufficiently warm before the peak period starts. Compared to the previous storage heaters that I had in the house, I should be able to bring the temperature back up after 7pm.

This scheme won't work for everyone, but if it rewards those who are prepared to be a bit more flexible in their energy's use, I'm all for it. This is primarily a railway forum and we know that better deals can be had by not travelling at peak times. Why should it be any different for energy consumption?

I think any individual consumer will only have to keep their usage down for an hour to get the benefit?

It's a good incentive to bring your home's insulation up to scratch and if it saves burning coal or diesel or being cut off completely it's surely a Good Thing, even for those unable to participate for any reason.

I like the analogy with peak train fares.

 

[The Lad]

I could see some perversive behaviour where it might be advantageous to concentrate electricity usage into 1600-1900 to give a high figure that you could then do a reduction on when the grid is stressed.
It may be worth some users using their already installed emergency provision to load shed if that is not already in their supply contract.
Time will tell.

 

[DelayRepay]

My supplier is not taking part in this scheme. I'm not too bothered as I don't use much power between 16:00 - 19:00 so limited opportunities to cut back.

If there is a genuine threat to electricity supplies, I think most people would do their bit to help even without financial incentives. Would it not make sense for the National Grid to publish anticipated 'risk' hours for each day/region, so that people can pro-actively try to avoid running energy intensive appliances like tumble dryers during those hours? I think a lot of people would voluntarily move power consumption to 'better' times of the day, if there was clarity as to when those times were.

 

[Dai Corner]

My supplier is not taking part in this scheme. I'm not too bothered as I don't use much power between 16:00 - 19:00 so limited opportunities to cut back.

If there is a genuine threat to electricity supplies, I think most people would do their bit to help even without financial incentives. Would it not make sense for the National Grid to publish anticipated 'risk' hours for each day/region, so that people can pro-actively try to avoid running energy intensive appliances like tumble dryers during those hours? I think a lot of people would voluntarily move power consumption to 'better' times of the day, if there was clarity as to when those times were.

I've long advocated something like this, or even just a general message on critical days that if x people avoid charging the car, tumble drying, putting an electric fire on unnecessarily or cooking electrically between certain hours we can avoid firing up a coal power station and producing y tonnes of pollutants.

 

[Snow1964]

I too got easily have the heating off for 3 hours, but it is gas so not going to make much difference as only the pumps etc using electric

Can avoid using tumble dryer, don’t yet have an electric car, only ever do laundry in morning, but do have electric ovens and induction hob and normally eat around 6pm so going to use oven during premium period.

To be honest, in 2 or 3 years probably change to an electric car, would be happy to have solar panels, and one of those battery storage units (power wall?), and so would rather have my current Government heating subsidy as a grant towards something that will give me benefit for multiple winters, once that is all fitted and I can set it to use stored power rather than grid power at times happy to have different tariffs at different times of day.

 

[DelayRepay]

I've long advocated something like this, or even just a general message on critical days that if x people avoid charging the car, tumble drying, putting an electric fire on unnecessarily or cooking electrically between certain hours we can avoid firing up a coal power station and producing y tonnes of pollutants.

Yes, I was thinking of something like a Red/Amber/Green rating for each hour. Green would mean there's plenty of power so things like tumble drying should take place during these times. Amber would be that there's enough power, but don't shift activities here from the Red hours. Red would mean there is a significant risk and people should make every effort to reduce consumption.

They could allow people to sign up for alerts to warn them when red hours have been declared. Depending on how many red hours there are, they could also be communicated through the media, e.g. an extra map at the end of the weather forecast.

 

[The Lad]

A partial answer, WhenToPlugIn app from National Grid already gives a forecast of carbon intensity of electricity in your area for the next 48 hours. There is also something called a Green Light Signal bulb, nationalgrid.com/greenlightsignal which lights green at low carbon times.
Not quite the same as being financially rewarded but might give enough of a warm feeling to not put the heat on.

 

[DelayRepay]

A partial answer, WhenToPlugIn app from National Grid already gives a forecast of carbon intensity of electricity in your area for the next 48 hours. There is also something called a Green Light Signal bulb, nationalgrid.com/greenlightsignal which lights green at low carbon times.
Not quite the same as being financially rewarded but might give enough of a warm feeling to not put the heat on.

The app sounds useful - I will download it later.

The bulb sounds like a bit of a faff and probably an unnecessary expense for most people.

The question is, though, as someone who's quite happy to try to reduce my energy usage, why am I only finding out about these tools from this thread? I've had dozens of emails from my energy supplier about how to save energy (the old turn the thermostat down and do your washing at a low temperature advice) - but never have these tools been mentioned.

 

[Noddy]

I have basic servicing done by a private individual, who only charges for the labour. I buy the parts.
I recently spent around £400, having to use a garage as he did not have the diagnostic equipment for an electrical fault. However, he did replace the exhaust for £200, and regarding catalytic converter theft - get a pattern exhaust that has no resale value.
Having spent this amount, I am in no hurry to replace my car until forced to do so.

If I had an EV, I would have to plug it into my existing wiring, it takes several hours to recharge at a cost of 49p/kWh. My energy is at a fixed rate.
Last year, I suffered a significant power cut as did the entire area, people were without electricity for a week.
I expect VED to be introduced for EVs at some point.
I hardly ever encounter serious traffic congestion - one of the reasons I moved to where I am.

A partial answer, WhenToPlugIn app from National Grid already gives a forecast of carbon intensity of electricity in your area for the next 48 hours. There is also something called a Green Light Signal bulb, nationalgrid.com/greenlightsignal which lights green at low carbon times.
Not quite the same as being financially rewarded but might give enough of a warm feeling to not put the heat on.

Yes, thanks for highlighting these apps! Just looking it’s sad that at about 2pm today on an overcast day in mid November that almost 17% of energy in the south-west is from solar, but in neighbouring south Wales it’s only 0.9%.

 

[bleeder4]

Do smart meters now support off-peak reduced tariffs? My parents used to be on a tariff that was cheaper in the evenings. They switched to a smart meter and then discovered it didn't support that type of tariff, so they ended up paying the same rate 24/7. It ended up costing them more money.

 

[Noddy]

Do smart meters now support off-peak reduced tariffs? My parents used to be on a tariff that was cheaper in the evenings. They switched to a smart meter and then discovered it didn't support that type of tariff, so they ended up paying the same rate 24/7. It ended up costing them more money.

Yes they do, but you need to be with a supplier that does those types of tariffs and not all do. Octopus Energy are probably the most well known for it as they have a few different ones I believe. Octopus Go was offering 12p kWh between 00.30 and 04.30 for example, although because of the whole price of gas situation I’m not sure if they’re still offering it to new customers?

 

[The Lad]

Note that the two I mentioned don't reduce electricity usage, they just flag up when it is low carbon.