Bendy buses

[scosutsut]

Here's a question then. In the UK are there any routes served by articulated buses where deckers could fit?

I.E. how often are they used when there is the more traditional alternative?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Here's a question then. In the UK are there any routes served by articulated buses where deckers could fit?

I.E. how often are they used when there is the more traditional alternative?

I think most cases where artics have operated in the UK deckers could also be utilised. In fact in a number of places it's deckers that replaced them.

My 10 metre B7TL will just about U turn in certain station car parks but I wouldn’t take the Citaro-Gs as they would get stuck. Not only do they have the same wheelbase as a 12 metre rigid, it will trigger the jackknife protection if you force it to turn that far around that radius, which impacts on the turning circle.

I’ve banned my bendies from so many routes that deckers can do, but where they do fit I prefer using them!

The Citaros are split roughly 60/40 and do seem to have quite a long wheelbase for an artic. In contrast B7LAs are split nearly 50/50 and were far more maneuverable, in Aberdeen they were only restricted from operating two routes (19 and 20) and that was due to them requiring the bus to reverse.

 

[Leedsbusman]

They also carry a lot more people than a double decker.

Both vehicles have their place on different types of work!

Do they though in practise? Artics have large standing capacities based on a calculation of vehicle weight divided by a notional human weight and their three axles help. Rarely is there sufficient floor space to accommodate all the standees. We aren’t particularly keen on crush loading in urban buses.

Given practical issues in the UK over depot space, bus station layouts etc double deckers will always be preferred.

 

[alex397]

Bendy buses load/unload much faster than double deckers
They can take more people than double deckers
They tend to be more accessible as there’s no stairs
They can take more buggies/wheelchairs (if specced correctly) than a double decker

Bendy buses actually tend to have smaller turning circles than double deckers as well, believe it or not…

These are why I think bendies are, in some ways, better than a double decker.
While I’ll always try to get a view from a top deck, I find stairs tricky with my mild disability. Able bodied people can find them tricky too, especially with bags.
If people are unable or unwilling to use stairs on a double decker, they are left with often awkward and cramped layouts of the lower deck with not much choice of seats.
Bendies are far more accessible in my opinion.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The thing about double deckers is the actual capacity and the capacity used on so called 'full' services is actually not the same because people always start gathering and standing downstairs even when seats are free upstairs.

For example, I've many a time been told that there's no seats upstairs by passengers downstairs and I've been able to find a few seats to pick from towards the back of the bus upstairs, because people are lazy.

I'm sure we've all also seen passengers go upstairs and poke their head around the staircase, look down from the front of the bus towards the rear and then gone back downstairs, despite the fact I've often been sitting down the back with 4-6 free seats around me, the driver then starts skipping stops to pick people up because the bus is apparently full when it's not because of lazy gathering downstairs.

That's not so much a problem on bendy buses where people can get on through many different doors adjacent to every single seating area on the bus. The last few rows of seats on a double decker bus upstairs are largely underused even on services that are apparently full because it takes someone to walk upstairs and right down the back to see they are free, which people are too lazy to do in the way that they are too lazy to walk down a platform at a train station to find an empty carriage and instead moan on twitter they are in one like sardines,.

 

[Mikey C]

I've always found this argument a little flawed as it fails to consider the difference in overall capacity.

The capacity of a typical Articulated bus is around 140-160 depending on exact model and specification, in contrast a typical double decker carries around 80-95, thus you'd need two double deckers to carry the same number of passengers as an articulated bus. Even two short wheelbase London spec deckers take up quite a bit more road space than an Articulated bus and that's not factoring in the increased running costs of two double deckers vs one artic.

But that's comparing a bus with lots of people standing with one with a higher percentage sitting.

Fine for a small number of high capacity but short distance routes (e.g. the London Red Arrows), but if we're trying to make buses attractive, then having loads of people standing is hardly the way to attract people out of their cars. Especially on the rear section which lurches around.

The thing about double deckers is the actual capacity and the capacity used on so called 'full' services is actually not the same because people always start gathering and standing downstairs even when seats are free upstairs.

For example, I've many a time been told that there's no seats upstairs by passengers downstairs and I've been able to find a few seats to pick from towards the back of the bus upstairs, because people are lazy.

I'm sure we've all also seen passengers go upstairs and poke their head around the staircase, look down from the front of the bus towards the rear and then gone back downstairs, despite the fact I've often been sitting down the back with 4-6 free seats around me, the driver then starts skipping stops to pick people up because the bus is apparently full when it's not because of lazy gathering downstairs.

That's not so much a problem on bendy buses where people can get on through many different doors adjacent to every single seating area on the bus. The last few rows of seats on a double decker bus upstairs are largely underused even on services that are apparently full because it takes someone to walk upstairs and right down the back to see they are free, which people are too lazy to do in the way that they are too lazy to walk down a platform at a train station to find an empty carriage and instead moan on twitter they are in one like sardines,.

I rarely get that problem with the London double decker routes I use, as journey times are long enough to make any seats very attractive.

 

[Malaxa]

Artics can load or discharge sizeable numbers within seconds, unlike double deckers.

especially when revenue inspectors showed up on the 29 in London....

 

[johncrossley]

but if we're trying to make buses attractive, then having loads of people standing is hardly the way to attract people out of their cars. Especially on the rear section which lurches around.

Does that mean you would advise most of the world, which generally prefers articulated vehicles, to get double deckers instead? That would apply to both trams and buses, of course.

 

[Mikey C]

Does that mean you would advise most of the world, which generally prefers articulated vehicles, to get double deckers instead? That would apply to both trams and buses, of course.

Standing on trams is a lot nicer than standing on buses, as it's a far smoother ride.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I rarely get that problem with the London double decker routes I use, as journey times are long enough to make any seats very attractive.

Inside London it's not a problem, but outside London, even on long journeys, sadly it's all too common. Also common in Dublin.

 

[Worm]

The 135 Bury-Manchester route used to be run by First and they first used Volvo B10LA's, then B7LA and finally Scania Omnicity before they were withdrawn in around 2017. The route was then run by B7RLE's, B9TL's and the occasional Citaro until the depot was sold. Oldham has a double stop in the main station built for articulated buses with two doors but was never used for that purpose.

 

[tartanterrior]

Yes but those ones were new to Stagecoach in Hull (credit FocusFlickr) - one survived until earlier this year in "preservation"

T97 JHN Stagecoach EMMS 97 Volvo B10MA with Jonkheere Modulo body in Sheffield July99 (Copy)

Explore focus- transport's 7011 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

There were others with Fife and Western IIRC

Yes, we had a fleet at Ardrossan when I worked there with Stagecoach. And they were a joy to drive, chucking them around some A, and B roads around Ayrshire was always tremendous fun.

As for the sleepers, they were much preferred by the 'regular' passengers who used the sleeper, owing to the single enclosed bunk, and the option of a seat if you weren't quite ready for bed too.

 

[route101]

I used a bendy last week between Luton Airport Parkway and the airport.

When I used the bendy buses in Glasgow they only used the door at the front which made it awkward to move along the bus if its busy.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

I used a bendy last week between Luton Airport Parkway and the airport.

When I used the bendy buses in Glasgow they only used the door at the front which made it awkward to move along the bus if its busy.

From memory, when they tried two door operation, suddenly no one paid a fare.

 

[alex397]

I used a bendy last week between Luton Airport Parkway and the airport.

Incidentally, I believe this is now the only route with bendy buses on a public service in the South East. It is a public registered bus route numbered 888 (It was also the last route in the UK which had an ex-First ‘ftr’ in service). There are of course bendies in use at airports as car park shuttles and airside, but they are generally not public registered routes.

When I used the bendy buses in Glasgow they only used the door at the front which made it awkward to move along the bus if its busy.

Even when alighting? If so, that seems a pointless use of a bendy bus.

 

[GusB]

On the subject of the 'ftr', do any of them still exist?

 

[318266]

On the subject of the 'ftr', do any of them still exist?

19000 is in preservation in South Yorkshire, don't think it runs at present. Another one was seen on eBay not too long ago - in some university branding if I recall?

 

[Bletchleyite]

From memory, when they tried two door operation, suddenly no one paid a fare.

The Manchester ones on the 135 had one-way gates on the rear door, which at least made pushing in there obvious.

 

[RJ]

On the subject of the 'ftr', do any of them still exist?

Yes, a few are in storage ready to go if anyone wants to buy them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, a few are in storage ready to go if anyone wants to buy them.

If

I guess the problem with them fundamentally is that the design of the cab means the driver can't take fares, which very much limits their appeal.

 

[route101]

Incidentally, I believe this is now the only route with bendy buses on a public service in the South East. It is a public registered bus route numbered 888 (It was also the last route in the UK which had an ex-First ‘ftr’ in service). There are of course bendies in use at airports as car park shuttles and airside, but they are generally not public registered routes.

Even when alighting? If so, that seems a pointless use of a bendy bus.

Pretty sure the ones with First Glasgow only used the front doors.

 

[GusB]

Yes, a few are in storage ready to go if anyone wants to buy them.

Parking may be an issue for me, both in terms of having the space and the ability!

 

[Volvodart]

Aberdeen used both doors, eventually, when the garage sorted the problem that they were always sticking open .

 

[Mikey C]

I used a bendy last week between Luton Airport Parkway and the airport.

When I used the bendy buses in Glasgow they only used the door at the front which made it awkward to move along the bus if its busy.

Which makes the theoretical capacity numbers a nonsense, as nobody is going to go to the back if they know they'll never be able to get out when they want.

Buses in this country never seem to have solved the "quick passenger flow" versus "fare evasion" balance properly, hence single door buses being so common. London has regularly tried open access and then reverted back, whether with the bendies or the Borismasters.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Buses in this country never seem to have solved the "quick passenger flow" versus "fare evasion" balance properly, hence single door buses being so common. London has regularly tried open access and then reverted back, whether with the bendies or the Borismasters.

London's present system works well in my view, and would work fine on a bendy elsewhere too. Almost nobody boards at the rear, and drivers look out for it and refuse to depart until they come forward and pay if anyone does it. I mentioned upthread the Manchester ones had a one way gate on the rear door (wheelchair users boarded at the front).

There are places where 3-door bendies with open boarding would work well, e.g. Oxford/Wilmslow Road in Manchester (in essence a tram on the cheap, and Metrolink is open boarding), but you'd need frequent inspections and a hefty penalty fare.

 

[route101]

Which makes the theoretical capacity numbers a nonsense, as nobody is going to go to the back if they know they'll never be able to get out when they want.

Buses in this country never seem to have solved the "quick passenger flow" versus "fare evasion" balance properly, hence single door buses being so common. London has regularly tried open access and then reverted back, whether with the bendies or the Borismasters.

The same happens with busy single deckers, I find it hard to get off them.

 

[johncrossley]

Metrolink is open boarding

and nobody questions it, except maybe to have conductors instead. It is possible to have trams where the driver checks and issues tickets but (rightly) we don't consider those because of the impact on boarding times.

 

[Mikey C]

London's present system works well in my view, and would work fine on a bendy elsewhere too. Almost nobody boards at the rear, and drivers look out for it and refuse to depart until they come forward and pay if anyone does it. I mentioned upthread the Manchester ones had a one way gate on the rear door (wheelchair users boarded at the front).

There are places where 3-door bendies with open boarding would work well, e.g. Oxford/Wilmslow Road in Manchester (in essence a tram on the cheap, and Metrolink is open boarding), but you'd need frequent inspections and a hefty penalty fare.

If a bus is busy, then you want entrance at the back as well, to spread passenger number throughout the bus. Imagine a commuter train with just one door at one end of the carriage, and how much bunching there would be.

If you aren't prepared to have the necessary ticket inspections, then it's pointless having such long buses, which is why they aren't used here I guess.

I always entered Borismasters using the rear door, whether with the open platform or with a door. Tap in and walk up the stairs, which was brilliant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The same happens with busy single deckers, I find it hard to get off them.

Yep, it's a key reason why people don't move back. Runcorn's original Busway buses had front and rear (not middle) doors which really encouraged moving down, it's hard* to do with current low floor tech, but should be possible again with the move to electric as you can bin off the rear axle and have independent hub motors allowing low floor throughout.

* But not impossible, some designs for the Netherlands and Switzerland have the engine in the middle of the front section to one side, allowing the whole bendy bus to be low floor throughout, there are also very quirky rigid versions.

 

[johncrossley]

Yep, it's a key reason why people don't move back.

UK buses outside London probably don't expect standing passengers on single deck buses as passenger numbers have generally fallen to very low levels. Single door buses are unsuitable in almost all urban circumstances anyway, which is why most countries don't use them, but if you regularly have standing passengers then they are *really* unsuitable.