Fine for £3.60 ticket

[tomenefer]

My girlfriend was travelling a 5 minute journey from Meadowhall to Sheffield. The Trainline app on her phone wasn’t working so she tried to buy a ticket on board, when she boarded the train she went straight to the guy who checks the tickets and he said it’ll be £20 now or pay £20 from a letter, he wrote her a ticket and said he would explain what happened. Understandably my girlfriend tried to get off the train but the doors had shut by this point. He said she shouldn’t worry about paying it as he would explain the situation. So a few days later we got the letter saying pay £20. We phoned up the number on the letter and explained the situation gave the ticket guys name and they said there was nothing they could do and we would have to pay £20. Today however she has received a letter being charged with the penalty fair, either go to court and dispute it or pay £100 settlement. Personally I believe the guy checking tickets didn’t give an explanation to anyone, and perhaps he forgot about it.

In this situation should we pay the settlement or go to court and say not guilty?

 

[AlterEgo]

There is a ticket office and ticket machines at Meadowhall, so your girlfriend committed a criminal offence by boarding the train without a ticket when an opportunity to pay was present.

The Penalty Fare was - absent any disputes about signage - correctly issued, and it should have been paid. As it has not, Northern have progressed to taking her to court for the offence, which they are entitled to do, and you should pay the settlement as soon as possible to avoid a conviction in the Magistrates' Court. Unfortunately, "my phone app was not working" is no valid defence.

Can you post copies of all the paperwork, with personal details redacted?

 

[Haywain]

In this situation should we pay the settlement or go to court and say not guilty?

Pay the settlement. If your girlfriend goes to court she will be find guilty and it will cost a lot more than £100 as there will be a court imposed fine, victims surcharge, prosecution costs and the fare - potentially totalling over £500.

 

[WesternLancer]

My girlfriend was travelling a 5 minute journey from Meadowhall to Sheffield. The Trainline app on her phone wasn’t working so she tried to buy a ticket on board, when she boarded the train she went straight to the guy who checks the tickets and he said it’ll be £20 now or pay £20 from a letter, he wrote her a ticket and said he would explain what happened. Understandably my girlfriend tried to get off the train but the doors had shut by this point. He said she shouldn’t worry about paying it as he would explain the situation. So a few days later we got the letter saying pay £20. We phoned up the number on the letter and explained the situation gave the ticket guys name and they said there was nothing they could do and we would have to pay £20. Today however she has received a letter being charged with the penalty fair, either go to court and dispute it or pay £100 settlement. Personally I believe the guy checking tickets didn’t give an explanation to anyone, and perhaps he forgot about it.

In this situation should we pay the settlement or go to court and say not guilty?

For future ref the price of Penalty Fare is going up from £20 to £100 (reduced to £50 if paid promptly) in the next week or so - so this situation is going to get worse. Train operators, at the request of the government, want people to stop buying tickets on board the train after they get on - which has been common practice for many years in some parts of the country - so this situation will happen more frequently I suspect.

It's a shame that no one clearly explained to your girlfriend that if the £20 Penalty Fare was not paid the sum would effectively escalate in the way that it has.

 

[Doubleplus]

He said she shouldn’t worry about paying it as he would explain the situation.

Is it possible that Railway staff could be prevented from misleading customers in this way?

 

[Haywain]

Is it possible that Railway staff could be prevented from misleading customers in this way?

No. It's not ideal but most (other than RPIs) will try and soften things to avoid conflict and probably don't have a real understanding of what happens next and how much it can really cost.

 

[some bloke]

We phoned up...they said there was nothing they could do and we would have to pay £20. Today however she has received a letter being charged with the penalty fair, either go to court...

What exactly (or at least, more precisely) did you and they say in the phone conversation?

When you write "however", does that mean the company didn't allow you the time which the person on the phone implied you would have, to pay the penalty fare?

Depending on what they said on the phone, maybe one option would be to pay the settlement fee, to prevent prosecution, then complain. If they keep audio recordings for quality control purposes, this might be a good example of an instance where that purpose applies.

 

[miami]

> went straight to the guy who checks the tickets and he said it’ll be £20 now or pay £20 from a letter

What does "£20 now" mean? Did he say something like "It's a £20 fine, here's a form, you can pay it now or pay it later"?

 

[kristiang85]

Is it possible that Railway staff could be prevented from misleading customers in this way?

This seems to be a common problem on cases described on here; surely there must be some sort of protection for customers who are mislead in this way? To us on here it seems obvious what the rules are, but for non regular users it does seem a bit unfair.

 

[AlterEgo]

The other way of doing things is to tell the customer they’re screwed to their face and it’s £20 or try to appeal. That causes conflict.

 

[kristiang85]

The other way of doing things is to tell the customer they’re screwed to their face and it’s £20 or try to appeal. That causes conflict.

But surely that's their job? Isn't it better to just honestly say it's £20 now, or risk a lot more - with little chance of success - later. If one doesnt want conflict with the general public then don't go in a customer facing role...

 

[ashkeba]

The other way of doing things is to tell the customer they’re screwed to their face and it’s £20 or try to appeal. That causes conflict.

Or they could say there will be a letter explaining the next steps, but they don't know what that will be. Misleading people into court is scandalous.

 

[AlterEgo]

Or they could say there will be a letter explaining the next steps, but they don't know what that will be. Misleading people into court is scandalous.

How has the customer been misled into court here? The penalty fare was accepted, they received correspondence and they did not make any appeal using a valid method.

The instructions on how to appeal a penalty fare aren’t difficult to follow. Making a valid appeal protects you from prosecution. I’m not sure what else we can advise in this situation.

 

[ashkeba]

How has the customer been misled into court here?

"He said she shouldn’t worry about paying it" but this is far from the worst example.

 

[AlterEgo]

"He said she shouldn’t worry about paying it" but this is far from the worst example.

They were correctly told they had to pay it when they rang up (who? Customer relations?). They did not pay it and did not appeal. The instructions on the letter and the website on what to do are very clear. I don’t agree what the RPI said has “misled them into court”. They’ve simply been sloppy with their paperwork, not read the instructions on how to make their appeal, and allowed the process to slide further after being told the penalty fare must be paid. That’s actually what has caused this and this is why they now have a £100 demand.

 

[Western Sunset]

In so many cases like this, there seems to be a disconnect between the passenger and the TOC, in respect of how tickets are purchased. For many, everything is now done online via an app on their phone.
With the new £100 fines/penalties coming in, maybe there needs to be better information as to the consequences of not having a valid ticket when boarding a train and a standardised approach by all TOCs as to how to deal with passengers who (often innocently) don't realise the criminal nature of transgressing (often antiquated) railway rules.

 

[DeverseSam]

Understandably my girlfriend tried to get off the train but the doors had shut by this point.

So the start of the interaction happened when the doors were still open?

I would hope any guard / RPI would give the opportunity of getting off if approached proactively.

Also the confusion in this case could be to do with the fact that the tram, making a parallel journey, is pay onboard I believe.

 

[Snow1964]

"He said she shouldn’t worry about paying it" but this is far from the worst example.

Very misleading

I know RPIs don't want conflict (although it is part of the job), but needs to be stated fairly, not imply paying it is optional

 

[island]

Very misleading

I know RPIs don't want conflict (although it is part of the job), but needs to be stated fairly, not imply paying it is optional

We only have one side of the story here. Some passengers will hear what they want to hear.

 

[AY1975]

There is a ticket office and ticket machines at Meadowhall, so your girlfriend committed a criminal offence by boarding the train without a ticket when an opportunity to pay was present.

So I suppose that means passengers shouldn't think they can rely absolutely on being able to save time by buying tickets online via a ticketing website or app: even if they intend to buy their tickets in this way, they should still allow enough time to buy a ticket from the ticket office or ticket vending machine (TVM) on the off-chance that none of the websites or apps that they try to use will work or that there might be an internet outage.

Unfortunately, many passengers have now got used to saving time by buying a ticket online (and using an e-ticket or m-ticket where available so they don't even have to collect it from a TVM). There are still plenty of passengers who are old enough to remember the days when buying from a ticket office or TVM (or even only from the ticket office) was the only option available, but I suspect that a lot of those in their 30s or younger, especially if they've only been travelling by train as adults, have only ever bought tickets online and wouldn't dream of using a ticket office or TVM until they suddenly find themselves in this kind of situation.

 

[island]

So I suppose that means passengers shouldn't think they can rely absolutely on being able to save time by buying tickets online via a ticketing website or app

Passengers should buy tickets before boarding the train where the facilities to do so are provided, as the law requires. It really isn't difficult.

 

[Sultan]

Passengers should buy tickets before boarding the train where the facilities to do so are provided, as the law requires. It really isn't difficult.

And this should include completing any on-line transaction before boarding.

 

[Western Sunset]

But in the real (21st century) world for many folk:

Arrives at the station just as the train is running in
Jumps aboard
Tries to buy online (as has done countless times before)
App/phone not working
RPI comes along...

 

[spag23]

So I suppose that means passengers shouldn't think they can rely absolutely on being able to save time by buying tickets online

Indeed. But it takes (ie saves) the same amount of time to buy a ticket online before setting out from home as it does from the station/train. On second thoughts it's probably quicker from home, as you (usually) have a known good signal and can get in straight away. Not to mention having access to a mains-powered charger!

 

[ashkeba]

We only have one side of the story here. Some passengers will hear what they want to hear.

We have far too many example allegations on this forum of misleading statements by railway staff to think no railway staff present a referral into the pathway towards court as a better outcome than immediate payment. I agree with a poster above that they are seeking to avoid conflict, but they should not make claims about the court path that are untrue, whether or not they know them to be untrue. They should stick to what they know and say don't know to other details.

The penalty fare signs should also be replaced by one headed with red on white "BUY YOUR TICKET BEFORE BOARDING" and keep the exceptions to the small print. The recent white and black "WARNING Have you paid?" followed by a three line statement is too wishy waspy for stressed people in a rush, the modern equivalent of the old legal "fool in a hurry".

 

[All Line Rover]

But in the real (21st century) world for many folk:

Arrives at the station just as the train is running in
Jumps aboard
Tries to buy online (as has done countless times before)
App/phone not working
RPI comes along...

They may as well not have bought a ticket at all.

 

[island]

an offence is committed the moment they "jump aboard".

 

[jamiearmley]

Interesting read.

I doubt this was northern, as penalty fares issued by northern are not 'pay on the spot'. Some other tocs, etc, do accept immediate payment : but its not a thing northern do.

Potentially TPE?

 

[sheff1]

But in the real (21st century) world for many folk:

Arrives at the station just as the train is running in
Jumps aboard
Tries to buy online ......

Especially as one of the 'benefits' of the Northern app is, according to their advertising:

"Beat the queues and take a seat.
With tickets sent straight to your mobile when using the app, your journey just got a lot easier."

accompanied by a picture of someone sitting onboard a train holding their mobile in front of them seemingly (when seen in the context of the text) buying a ticket.

 

[WesternLancer]

Especially as one of the 'benefits' of the Northern app, as shown on their website, is "Beat the queues and take a seat. With tickets sent straight to your mobile when using the app, your journey just got a lot easier." accompanied by a picture of someone sitting onboard a train holding their mobile phone in front of them seemingly (when seen in the context of the text) buying a ticket.

very well put....