End of the line for return rail tickets

[CeeJ]

Story in the Telegraph today, not yet available online but it has made the front page (amongst the lettuce and the balloon):

RETURN tickets are to be scrapped as Rishi Sunak gives the green light to long awaited reforms of railways,

Mark Harper, the Transport Secretary, will announce plans for new ticketing arrangements as he addresses a crisis on the trains, this week.

The "single-leg pricing" will be unveiled having proved a success in trials with passengers. Two singles will equal a return, making return tickets redundant.

Mr Harper will also commit to Great British Railways (GBR), a new public body that will bring the operation of track and trains under the same place for the first time. GBR was unveiled by Boris Johnson and Grant Shapps in May 202, but progress has stalled amid criticism that the body was "nationalisation through the back door".

Fears had grown that GBR would be scrapped. Mr Harper will show that "the idea that GBR is dead, is dead" according to a person who has seen a draft of his speech, which was being finalised last night.

The new public body is to take on responsibility for timetabling and tick eting, currently controlled by the Department for Transport. Ticket pricing is among the most complicated issues that have never been dealt with. since privatisation. There are 55 million different fares, according to trade body the Rail Delivery Group.

Mr Harper is expected to hint at the greater use of ticketing technology - a signal that paper tickets could soon be scrapped in favour of QR codes and smartcards similar to the Oyster Card in use across public transport in London.

Single leg pricing was trialled in 2020 by east coast train operator LNER. Return tickets were dropped in favour of two single tickets at the same price.

Big news seems to be:

• GBR will still go ahead
• Single-leg pricing being rolled out across the network?
• Commitment to Project Oval and possible ending of CCST?

 

[JonathanH]

Has single-leg pricing been "proved a success in trials with passengers"?

People keep on asking on this forum why they can't get a return from London to Leeds.

I bet the off-peak single fare from Brighton to Southampton via Barnham with single leg pricing won't be £6.00 with a railcard (or its equivalent after price rises).

 

[zwk500]

Has single-leg pricing been "proved a success in trials with passengers"?

It has on continental Europe....

 

[TAS]

• LNER are extending its single-leg pricing trial - so not quite the end of return tickets given they’ll still exist on other operators

Reading the text you quoted, it seems to imply that single leg pricing is to be rolled out further than LNER?

 

[swt_passenger]

Won’t all railcard minimum fares have to be halved then?

 

[JonathanH]

Won’t all railcard minimum fares have to be halved then?

I doubt it.

 

[PG]

Bang goes the freedom offfered by Break of Journey on the return leg

 

[Peter0124]

Scrapping Return fares is stupid, by all means make Singles half price but leave return fares alone. Imagine having to buy and collect two separate tickets just to make a short return journey. Coming from the user of a PRIV whom is required to collect from the machine for the discount.

 

[CeeJ]

Reading the text you quoted, it seems to imply that single leg pricing is to be rolled out further than LNER?

Sorry there’s one extra line in the article that gets cut out, which led me to think it’s LNER-only but you actually you might be right:

At the time, LNER said: "Rail tickets can be confusing. We want to make-

 

[RailWonderer]

What I can see coming is a flat fare system where off peak, peak, super off peak etc are all reduced to one fare which is slightly cheaper than peak but more expensive than everything else so everybody pays more but they can say it's simpler and the DfT collect record high levels of revenue, then spend all the money inefficiently and make cutbacks. I see where this is all headed.

 

[zwk500]

For a bit of context, (and I'm no expert on Dutch ticketing), but over here in the Netherlands the entire NS network has tap-in-tap-out smartcards (and recently expanded to contactless). The price is based on a per-KM rate, and you can apply upgrades or discounts to your account at ticket machines, which then modifies the fare as you tap out accordingly. You can also set up the card to auto-top up from direct debit so as long as you have sufficient money in your bank account you'll always be able to pay. (I don't know what happens with peak times as I've never considered getting the train then).
There are supplements payable for certain IC trains, and then some international trains require separate tickets completely (e.g. Eurostar). If you are visiting the country you can still buy a ticket on paper or temporary smartcard, for a surcharge of EUR1.00. The smartcards work across all (or nearly all) metro, tram and bus networks in the country as well.
While this level of integration is a very long way from being practical on the British network, it illustrates that even on a large and dense network with multiple tiers of trains single-leg pricing is perfectly feasible. With e-tickets and ITSO smartcards gradually gaining traction in the UK I don't see any reason why it can't work. I'm sure @Bletchleyite can add more.

Scrapping Return fares is stupid, by all means make Singles half price but leave return fares alone. Imagine having to buy and collect two separate tickets just to make a return journey. Coming from the user of a PRIV whom is required to collect from the machine for the discount.

I can't see any reason why a return ticket couldn't be issued, it would just be twice the price of the single fare.

 

[62484GlenLyon]

Scrapping Return fares is stupid, by all means make Singles half price but leave return fares alone. Imagine having to buy and collect two separate tickets just to make a short return journey. Coming from the user of a PRIV whom is required to collect from the machine for the discount.

As I read this thread there won't be a physical ticket to collect. It will either be on a contactless card of some kind or your mobile phone.

 

[yorkie]

Won’t all railcard minimum fares have to be halved then?

I suggest we oppose any attempt to abolish returns unless the 'powers that be' promise:

• NOT to make passengers pay more (as happened for Off Peak passengers between Leeds/Newcastle/Edinburgh and London)
• NOT to add route restrictions (as also happened in the above examples)
• to REDUCE the minimum fares applicable to some Railcards to half the current values
• to HALF the cost of the cheapest available return fares i.e. Day Return fares (where these exist)

However I suspect they will not do any of these things, resulting in increased fares for most passengers.

As I read this thread there won't be a physical ticket to collect. It will either be on a contactless card of some kind or your mobile phone.

Indeed old style paper tickets are on their way out; barcode tickets (sometimes erroneously called QR code but actually Aztec code) will replace them. No need to have a mobile phone; barcode e-tickets can be printed or shown on any electronic device capable of displaying PDF files (no internet connection is required to show the ticket); this is covered in other threads, though.

 

[TAS]

Scrapping Return fares is stupid, by all means make Singles half price but leave return fares alone. Imagine having to buy and collect two separate tickets just to make a return journey.

On that last point, I don't see the difference from what we have now for most users, given that returns generally come in two parts - effectively two separate tickets - already. There's no suggestion that you wouldn't be able to book them in one transaction, all that would be different is that each half would be called a single.

My office days are pretty limited at the moment, but when I do go in, I often go for a drink or two afterwards. Paying peak fares into London but off-peak ones back sounds quite attractive, depending on how exactly the pricing's structured. Obviously if there's a fares increase by stealth, I won't be so happy!

 

[yorkie]

There were stealth price rises on LNER's single leg fares trial; people who previously benefited from Off Peak reruns have to either buy Anytime Singles, or opt out of the trial by purchasing to/from an alternative station.

I also doubt day returns for journeys such as Derby to Sheffield, or Peterborough to York, will be halved.

 

[JonathanH]

Paying peak fares into London but off-peak ones back sounds quite attractive, depending on how exactly the pricing's structured.

Indeed, the issue to date has been that the reforms will lead to winners, such as someone who travels peak in one direction and off-peak in the other but currently pays a peak fare, and losers, such as someone who does the same but currently pays an off-peak fare.

 

[william.martin]

This is ridiculous, 2 adults and one child with a family and friends railcard from Birmingham New Street to London Euston with Avanti (off-peak return) would cost me a total of £63.05.
If I only used single fares the outward leg of the same journey would cost me £42. The return journey would cost the same amount resulting in a total spend of: £84

Return off peak ticket for 2 adults and 1 child with a family and friends railcard from Birmingham to London on the WCML (and back)

Total = £63.05



Off peak single ticket for two adults and 1 child with a family and friends Railcard from Birmingham to London via WCML = £42

+

Off peak single ticket for two adults and 1 child with a family and friends Railcard from London to Birmingham via WCML = £42

Total = £84.

So the government is trying to set us all back £20.95 every time we go on a family trip to London!

 

[yorkie]

This is ridiculous, 2 adults and one child with a family and friends railcard from Birmingham New Street to London Euston with Avanti (off-peak return) would cost me a total of £63.05.
If I only used single fares the outward leg of the same journey would cost me £42. The return journey would cost the same amount resulting in a total spend of: £84

Return off peak ticket for 2 adults and 1 child with a family and friends railcard from Birmingham to London on the WCML (and back)

Total = £63.05



Off peak single ticket for two adults and 1 child with a family and friends Railcard from Birmingham to London via WCML = £42

+

Off peak single ticket for two adults and 1 child with a family and friends Railcard from London to Birmingham via WCML = £42

Total = £84.

So the government is trying to set us all back £20.95 every time we go on a family trip to London!

We don't know the single fares yet.

But history tells us that they won't just half all the existing fares

 

[brad465]

With finances in dire straits it would not be surprising if something was announced that appeared good on the surface but deep down is actually more expensive than the status quo.

 

[JonathanH]

So the government is trying to set us all back £20.95 every time we go on a family trip to London!

Not necessarily. Avanti tried singles at half the return fare, but found it wasn't good for revenue, so set them at about 70%. If the story is to be believed, it might reduce them to 50% of the return, but then again, it might not.

The big loser is the passenger who currently is able to return on an off-peak fare in the evening peak and finds there is a new evening peak fare introduced.

 

[yorkie]

The big loser is the passenger who currently is able to return on an off-peak fare in the evening peak and finds there is a new evening peak fare introduced.

Indeed.

A passenger from Leeds who arrives into Kings Cross around 1030 and departs around 1830 is now over 87 quid out of pocket, due to the LNER single fares trial (at least they would be if they simply asked at a ticket office or bought on the LNER website; savvy people who use a split ticketing site such as the forum's, or asked for a ticket from somewhere like Burley Park, would avoid being mugged off)

However I am sure the singles fare trial conclusion will ignore such passengers and conclude that 'simplifying' the range of fares is a great idea; let's face it, we all knew the likely outcome of this trial before it even began.

 

[TAS]

Indeed, the issue to date has been that the reforms will lead to winners, such as someone who travels peak in one direction and off-peak in the other but currently pays a peak fare, and losers, such as someone who does the same but currently pays an off-peak fare.

Yes, I can see that (I am occasionally in the latter boat myself - usually for leisure travel on a day off). Much as I would like to assume that the Government had commissioned research to understand the overall impact before announcing it, I'm all too conscious that this doesn't always happen - do you (or anyone else) know if anything has been published in relation to the current trials?

 

[Watershed]

The advent of single leg pricing will undoubtedly be used as a convenient excuse to increase prices through the back door. Anyone who remembers the last round of "simplification" in 2008 will know that the government never lets an opportunity to increase fares be laid to waste!

Note, for example, the purported "single leg pricing" introduced by Avanti West Coast. They scraped the Saver Half fares, and reduced the Off-Peak Single from being 10p or £1 less than a return to 70% of a return - in other words, nowhere near true single leg pricing. I can't see the Off-Peak Single now being reduced - the Off-Peak Return will simply be scrapped, allowing for a hidden 40% price increase.

Similarly, LNER's single leg pricing "trial" has involved the scrapping of the Off-Peak fare. There is now just the Anytime and the Super Off-Peak Single on the affected flows. This allows LNER to charge more for trains where the Off-Peak fare previously capped the cost of Advance tickets. Again, another hidden price increase.

The abolition of returns will be rather inconvenient and costly personally, as I will lose the ability to break my journey on the return portion. But I recognise that this is a minority pursuit in the grand scheme of things (though perhaps more would use it if it were better advertised?). The perceived revenue protection benefits will outweigh any argument in favour of customer flexibility - see LNER, Northern and TPE's underhanded change from Anytime Returns to Anytime "Short Distance" Returns (even on some rather long distance journeys).

Not necessarily. Avanti tried singles at half the return fare, but found it wasn't good for revenue, so set them at about 70%. If the story is to be believed, it might reduce them to 50% of the return, but then again, it might not.

The big loser is the passenger who currently is able to return on an off-peak fare in the evening peak and finds there is a new evening peak fare introduced.

They didn't try anything at all. They merely complied with the franchise obligation to introduce single fares at no more than 70% of the return.

 

[JonathanH]

They didn't try anything at all. They merely complied with the franchise obligation to introduce single fares at no more than 70% of the return.

Sorry, I was misremembering. I think it was GWR who did a half fare single trial and then pushed them up. I agree that Avanti did 70% singles later.

 

[william.martin]

Can't they just make a single half the price of a return?
Wait, it's the government so they just want money, nevermind.

 

[JonathanH]

Can't they just make a single half the price of a return?

Don't forget that the off-peak day return started life as a cheap day return at the price of a single fare.

From a revenue perspective, just introducing singles at half the price of a return isn't likely to be neutral without the introduction of more restrictions.

For a start, the railway companies lose some money where passengers currently buy single fares at the price of a return and would get it at 50% instead. Then, there are some anytime day returns which are priced as twice an anytime day single, but on routes where there isn't currently an afternoon peak restriction. The railway companies therefore need to introduce an afternoon peak on single fares so as not to lose revenue, as they did in London.

 

[william.martin]

Don't forget that the off-peak day return started life as a cheap day return at the price of a single fare.

From a revenue perspective, just introducing singles at half the price of a return isn't likely to be neutral without the introduction of more restrictions.

For a start, the railway companies lose some money where passengers currently buy single fares at the price of a return and would get it at 50% instead. Then, there are some anytime day returns which are priced as twice an anytime day single, but on routes where there isn't currently an afternoon peak restriction. The railway companies therefore need to introduce an afternoon peak on single fares so as not to lose revenue, as they did in London.

Interesting, evidently I am not an expert at fares however I am happy to learn, going to press unwatch on this thread before the hate mail starts.

 

[satisnek]

Fare increases by stealth. Yup, seen it all before (30+ years ago) . . .

 

[Watershed]

Can't they just make a single half the price of a return?
Wait, it's the government so they just want money, nevermind.

You're not wrong, to be honest. Ultimately there is no such thing as a free lunch with this (or indeed most) governments. Introducing true single leg pricing could make the railway much more attractive and drive ridership closer to 100% of pre-Covid levels.

But the government isn't interested in growing the railway and reducing the carbon impact of journeys - it's only interested in reducing subsidy and generating positive column inches.

 

[Hadders]

Interesting, evidently I am not an expert at fares however I am happy to learn, going to press unwatch on this thread before the hate mail starts.

If you feel that someone has overstepped the mark then please report the post to the Moderating Team by pressing the Report button in the bottom left hand corner of the post.

Fares Workshops and Forum Events are a great way to learn more about fares and you would be more than welcome.