End of the line for return rail tickets

[JonathanH]

Fare increases by stealth. Yup, seen it all before (30+ years ago) . . .

To be fair, no reform is possible that is better for everyone and cost neutral for the railway.

Whilst it may look like a stealth fare rise, the reality is that it is just rebalancing the cost of travelling between different users.

 

[Watershed]

To be fair, no reform is possible that is better for everyone and cost neutral for the railway.

Whilst it may look like a stealth fare rise, the reality is that it is just rebalancing the cost of travelling between different users.

Indeed. So it is typical spin to present this as an improvement when it simply means benefitting some people at the cost of many others.

I also can't see the Treasury accepting a change that's merely revenue-neutral; they will probably have insisted on some sort of back-handed increase (c.f. Avanti's 70% singles and LNER's Off-Peak scrapping) as a quid pro quo.

 

[Hadders]

Consider a journey like Derby to Sheffield. Current fares are:

Anytime Return £44.00
Anytime Day Return £24.90
Off Peak Return £24.70 (morning restrictions, no evening restrictions)
Off Peak Day Return £13.30 (morning restrictions, no evening restrictions)

Anytime Single £24.80
Off Peak Day Single £13.30 (morning restrictions, no evening restrictions)

What should the single leg prices and time restrictions be under the new system?

Passengers would want the Anytime Single to be £12.45 and the Off Peak Single to be £6.65, and for the Anytime Single to apply only in the morning peak with off peak at all times for the remainder of the day. This would never happen because the rail industry would lose far too much money so I suspect we'd end up with something like:

Anytime £16
Off Peak £9 (with morning and evening restrictions)

I'm sure it'll be claimed that it's revenue neutral but it's be a huge increase, especially for anyome travelling in the evening peak. It will of course be claimed that it's simple and 'what passengers want' but we need to be very wary of these claims.

The industry does not have a good track record when it comes to this sort of thing.

 

[JonathanH]

It will of course be claimed that it's simple and 'what passengers want' but we need to be very wary of these claims.

I agree but how do you do 'revenue neutral' fare reform without losers? At some point, the losers have to become collateral damage, just as they were in London in 2010.

The people who lost out in the London fare reforms in 2010 don't get talked about much, other than the ongoing grudge against the mixed-mode premium.

 

[yorkie]

Can't they just make a single half the price of a return?
Wait, it's the government so they just want money, nevermind.

They will probably make singles half the price of selected returns, but not the full range.

For example Sheffield to Derby is £13.30 for an off peak day return (CDR); I bet they don't reduce the off peak day single fare to £6.65.

Interesting, evidently I am not an expert at fares however I am happy to learn, going to press unwatch on this thread before the hate mail starts.

I'm not sure what you are alluding to but if you see anything that causes concern, please use the report button. We ask that all concerns are made directly to us using the report system.

 

[778]

Indeed.

A passenger from Leeds who arrives into Kings Cross around 1030 and departs around 1830 is now over 87 quid out of pocket, due to the LNER single fares trial (at least they would be if they simply asked at a ticket office or bought on the LNER website; savvy people who use a split ticketing site such as the forum's, or asked for a ticket from somewhere like Burley Park, would avoid being mugged off)

However I am sure the singles fare trial conclusion will ignore such passengers and conclude that 'simplifying' the range of fares is a great idea; let's face it, we all knew the likely outcome of this trial before it even began.

The tories will probably be voted out before this gets implemented. I would not worry too much at this stage.

 

[JonathanH]

The tories will probably be voted out before this gets implemented. I would not worry too much at this stage.

The changes in so much as they apply to Leeds to London fares have already been implemented. Project Oval (ie extension of Contactless) is happening in 2024.

The direction of fares reform appears to be largely set, regardless of the political party in power after 2024.

 

[infobleep]

The tories will probably be voted out before this gets implemented. I would not worry too much at this stage.

If the Conservatives don't call a general election until the last moment when they must, that would give them more time to implement this. The election in this case being in January 2025.

 

[WatcherZero]

If they dont go crazy splitting the fares (bearing in mind most return fares round here are simply single fare +10p) it would address one of the things that always pains me, when you need to travel out in the peak but can return in the offpeak rather than the evening peak or vice versa you got an offpeak return but must now sit and wait in the station for the evening peak to end before you can board a return.

 

[davews]

And presumably the day travel card will be scrapped?
We need the details, but down here in the south east peak singles to London are silly money at the moment.

 

[JonathanH]

down here in the south east peak singles to London are silly money at the momen

...and are generally about half the price of peak returns...

 

[Magdalia]

Introducing true single leg pricing could make the railway much more attractive and drive ridership closer to 100% of pre-Covid levels.

For most people trips out start and end at home, requiring a return journey. In that context, please explain how "single leg pricing could make the railway much more attractive" when what most customers want to buy is a return journey.

 

[robbeech]

Indeed, the issue to date has been that the reforms will lead to winners, such as someone who travels peak in one direction and off-peak in the other but currently pays a peak fare, and losers, such as someone who does the same but currently pays an off-peak fare.

We already had a system in place for that with advances and saver halves.

With finances in dire straits it would not be surprising if something was announced that appeared good on the surface but deep down is actually more expensive than the status quo.

Have you copied and pasted this from the dictionary definition of the railway?

And presumably the day travel card will be scrapped?
We need the details, but down here in the south east peak singles to London are silly money at the moment.

I see no reason for this to be the case, it’s a different product for different use.

 

[Magdalia]

And presumably the day travel card will be scrapped?

The day travel card played a huge part in developing leisure travel to/from London in the NSE era. Getting rid of it would blow a huge hole in revenue because people would go back to doing what they used to do before NSE: drive to the edge of London and get the Underground.

 

[robbeech]

For most people trips out start and end at home, requiring a return journey. In that context, please explain how "single leg pricing could make the railway much more attractive" when what most customers want to buy is a return journey.

I understand your thoughts and it’s certainly a valid point. However we must look at this including the whole range of tickets.
People may have an advance ticket for the outward journey, booked weeks ahead and representing good value. They may not know their return time or date until very last minute. Single leg pricing at 50% does offer a better value here. Of course, this only works if their advance is less than the 50% single, which many are not, but that’s a discussion for another topic.

 

[Magdalia]

People may have an advance ticket for the outward journey, booked weeks ahead and representing good value. They may not know their return time or date until very last minute. Single leg pricing at 50% does offer a better value here. Of course, this only works if their advance is less than the 50% single, which many are not, but that’s a discussion for another topic.

But your hypothetical customer is only behaving that way because of the perverse incentives of the ticketing system. The way to satisfy that customer is to sell them a return journey at a reasonable price. Your point about time of return is a valid one, and I have no problem with the railway charging a premium for flexibility.

 

[Haywain]

Coming from the user of a PRIV whom is required to collect from the machine for the discount.

Most Priv users can now buy through the RSTL website and use eTickets.

A passenger from Leeds who arrives into Kings Cross around 1030 and departs around 1830 is now over 87 quid out of pocket, due to the LNER single fares trial (at least they would be if they simply asked at a ticket office or bought on the LNER website;

Or they would use Advance tickets, which are also available on the day.

 

[robbeech]

Or they would use Advance tickets, which are also available on the day.

But then they lose the flexibility that the single leg pricing flexible tickets offer. So they lose out one way or another.

 

[Canary73]

There is a need to protect consumers here in any reform. There will be many people that don't have access to technology or who are unable to use it. Any reforms must include details of how there are protections for these customers.

 

[Haywain]

But then they lose the flexibility that the single leg pricing flexible tickets offer. So they lose out one way or another.

Flexibility is of little help if you know exactly when you are travelling, and it doesn't reduce much when Advance tickets can be bought right up to departure time.

 

[Snow1964]

I am going to wait for details before analysing

But need for returns is always going to be there, even if you call it 2 singles bought in one transaction. Historically returns were double price of single, but the question is what happens to the cheap off peak return that was often a single plus 10pence

But seems to me, if want simplification, might as well get rid of railcards too and just make every off peak ticket third lower, as most are sold this way.

 

[TAS]

I'm not sure it adds much, but the full article is now online. The main other point is a suggestion that GBR will be slimmed down from the original proposals.

End of the line for return railway tickets amid rising reforms
OLIVER GILL
CAMILLA TURNER
RETURN tickets are to be scrapped as Rishi Sunak gives the green light to long-awaited reforms of railways.
Mark Harper, the Transport Secretary, will announce plans for new ticketing arrangements as he addresses a crisis on the trains, this week.
The “single-leg pricing” will be unveiled having proved a success in trials with passengers. Two singles will equal a return, making return tickets redundant.
Mr Harper will also commit to Great British Railways (GBR), a new public body that will bring the operation of track and trains under the same place for the first time. GBR was unveiled by Boris Johnson and Grant Shapps in May 2021, but progress has stalled amid criticism that the body was “nationalisation through the back door”.
Fears had grown that GBR would be scrapped. Mr Harper will show that “the idea that GBR is dead, is dead”, according to a person who has seen a draft of his speech, which was being finalised last night.
The new public body is to take on responsibility for timetabling and ticketing, currently controlled by the Department for Transport. Ticket pricing is among the most complicated issues that have never been dealt with, since privatisation. There are 55 million different fares, according to trade body the Rail Delivery Group.
Mr Harper is expected to hint at the greater use of ticketing technology – a signal that paper tickets could soon be scrapped in favour of QR codes and smartcards similar to the Oyster Card in use across public transport in London.
Single-leg pricing was trialled in 2020 by east coast train operator LNER. Return tickets were dropped in favour of two single tickets at the same price.
At the time, LNER said: “Rail tickets can be confusing. We want to make choosing and buying tickets simpler.” Keith Williams, the former deputy chairman of John Lewis and ex-chief executive of British Airways, is expected to attend Mr Harper’s speech, in Westminster on Tuesday evening.
Mr Williams conducted a two-a-half-year “root and branch” review of the railways on behalf of the Government and proposed a “guiding mind” public body to prevent state meddling in day-to-day train operations. But critics argue that Mr Johnson’s interpretation of Mr Williams’ concept would have meant greater state intervention.
Mr Williams previously envisaged the body to be akin to the Fat Controller from Thomas the Tank Engine. Sources say that under Mr Sunak, the Fat Controller “will be put on a diet”. Fears persist, however, that GBR will throttle the private sector role on the railways.
Former minister John Penrose MP said: “Rather than bureaucrats or politicians pretending they know how much each passenger’s journey should cost, why not get lots of different rail firms competing to beat each others’ prices so tickets are always as cheap as possible?”
Paul Maynard MP, rail minister under Mr Johnson added: “We are all keen to understand the shape and scope of GBR, and how the balance will be struck between the guiding mind and fat controller.”

 

[Smidster]

More terrible news for those of us mugs who actually rely on this service.

Just another day ending in "y"

 

[Chriso]

I think the government need to be careful penalising people who actually pay . All this will do will increase fare evasion and make more staff unlikely to come out of the back can and actually check.

Another ludicrous and Ill thought out plan by the absolute fools who currently lead our country

 

[lyndhurst25]

I would hope that same-day, and hopefully overnight, Break of Journey rights are maintained for the new single fares.

 

[xotGD]

I would hope that same-day, and hopefully overnight, Break of Journey rights are maintained for the new single fares.

But not an extended break that you can make with a return portion that is currently valid for a month.

 

[brad465]

Have you copied and pasted this from the dictionary definition of the railway?

The definition of the UK railway yes

 

[JaJaWa]

Now online:

Transport Secretary to scrap return rail tickets​

Major reform set as Mark Harper also commits to Boris Johnson's Great British Railways, a new public body​

By Oliver Gill, CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT and Camilla Turner, CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT
5 February 2023 • 9:40am

Return tickets are set to be scrapped as Rishi Sunak gives the green light to long-awaited sweeping reforms of Britain’s railways.

Mark Harper, the Transport Secretary, will next week announce plans for new ticketing arrangements as he outlines how the Government will address a crisis on the railways.

The rollout of "single-leg pricing" will be unveiled, The Sunday Telegraph has been told.

It means that two singles will equal a return – making return tickets redundant – having proved a success during trials with passengers.

Mr Harper will also commit to Great British Railways (GBR), a new public body that will bring the operation of track and trains under the same place for the first time. GBR was first unveiled by Boris Johnson and Grant Shapps in May 2021, but progress has stalled amid criticism that the body was tantamount to “nationalisation through the back door”.

During the hiatus, fears have grown that GBR would be scrapped. Mr Harper will show that “the idea that GBR is dead, is dead”, according to one person who has seen a draft of his speech announcing the reforms next week.

A Government source said that the speech was still being finalised this weekend. The new public body is expected to take on responsibility for timetabling and ticketing, which are currently controlled by the Department for Transport.

Ticket pricing reform ranks among the most complicated issues that remain unsolved, since privatisation by successive governments. There are 55 million different fares, according to trade body the Rail Delivery Group.

Mr Harper is expected to hint at the greater use of ticketing technology – a signal that paper tickets could soon be scrapped in favour of QR codes and smartcards similar to the Oyster Card in use across public transport in London.

Single-leg pricing was trialled in 2020 by east coast train operator LNER. Return tickets were dropped in favour of two single tickets at the same price.

At the time, LNER said: “Rail tickets can be confusing. We want to make choosing and buying rail tickets simpler and more transparent. We hope this new structure is more straightforward: there are no more return tickets – one journey requires just one ticket.”

Keith Williams, the former deputy chair of John Lewis and ex-chief executive of British Airways, is expected to attend Mr Harper’s speech, which will be delivered in Westminster on Tuesday evening. Mr Williams conducted a two-a-half-year “root and branch” review of the railways on behalf of the Government and was the first to propose the idea of a “guiding mind” public body to prevent state meddling in day-to-day train operations.

But critics argue that Mr Johnson’s interpretation of Mr Williams's concept would have meant greater rather than less state intervention. Mr Williams previously envisaged the public body to be akin to the “Fat Controller” after the cantankerous character from Thomas the Tank Engine. Sources say that under Mr Sunak, the Fat Controller “will be put on a diet”.

Fears persist, however, that GBR will throttle the role of the private sector on the railways.

Former minister John Penrose, Conservative MP for Weston-super-Mare, said: "Rather than bureaucrats or politicians pretending they know how much each passenger's journey should cost, why not get lots of different rail firms competing to beat each others' prices so tickets are always as cheap as possible?"

MP for Blackpool North Paul Maynard, rail minister under Boris Johnson added: “Mr Harper's speech is long awaited. We are all keen to understand the shape and scope of GBR, and how the balance will be struck between the guiding mind and fat controller.

“As always, I'll be looking to see the passenger's interest placed firmly at the centre of policy making – and a recognition we need to get the passengers back if the railway is to avoid more painful times ahead.”

Return rail tickets to be scrapped

Major reform set as Transport Secretary also commits to Boris Johnson's Great British Railways, a new public body

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[lyndhurst25]

But not an extended break that you can make with a return portion that is currently valid for a month.

Yes, that will be a problem.

 

[JGurney]

For most people trips out start and end at home, requiring a return journey ...... what most customers want to buy is a return journey.

That sounds like common sense, but when I thought about it I realised that a lot of my rail journeys don't fit that model, so I wonder how many others are similar. Does anyone have data on the proportions of travellers making return journeys?

Quite a few of my local area journeys do not involve going back exactly the way I went, and a lot of our longer distance leisure journeys are not direct out and back ones either. Examples include:

• going to work by rail but coming back by bus so I can visit shops along the bus route
• Getting a train to Windermere, then walking across the Lake District and getting a train home from Ravenglass.
• Combining a stay in Scotland with visiting various friends and family meaning rail tickets for London - York, Saltburn - Edinburgh, Leuchars - Kyle of Lochalsh, and Kyle of Lochalsh - London.
• For a trip to Somerset next week, my wife has a Darlington - Bristol booking, I have a Surbiton - Yeovil one and we are both booked for Castle Cary - Paddington for a week later.