End of the line for return rail tickets

[alistairlees]

What I expect that will happen is that almost everywhere will gain evening peak restrictions. For some this will mean a significant increase in fares. On the other hand there will be ever more split ticketing opportunities.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm highly sceptical about this.

I can forsee a big price gouge coming. I don not trust this Government not to use this "reform" as an excuse to put up fares.

Shame they aren't so interested in the sorts of reforms that passengers want, such as running decent timetables and ensuring enough capacity.

 

[duncanp]

Take the example of an off peak journey from Birmingham to London.

A return is currently £62.10, and a single £43.40.

I would like to think that the cost of a single goes down to £31.05 (half the current cost of a return), otherwise this will be nothing more than a back door fare increase.

I also like the flexibility of a return ticket, in that the return is valid for a whole month.

I would hope that, if you pay for a return journey all in one transaction, the single ticket for the return half of the journey has the same validity as the return portion of a return ticket.

I suspect that this wwon't be the case though.

 

[AlterEgo]

What I expect that will happen is that almost everywhere will gain evening peak restrictions. For some this will mean a significant increase in fares. On the other hand there will be ever more split ticketing opportunities.

This was my first reaction too.

 

[TreacleMiller]

Scrapping Return fares is stupid, by all means make Singles half price but leave return fares alone. Imagine having to buy and collect two separate tickets just to make a short return journey. Coming from the user of a PRIV whom is required to collect from the machine for the discount.

No, you're not. Privs are digital these days and have been for some time.

 

[Rail Ranger]

If they dont go crazy splitting the fares (bearing in mind most return fares round here are simply single fare +10p) it would address one of the things that always pains me, when you need to travel out in the peak but can return in the offpeak rather than the evening peak or vice versa you got an offpeak return but must now sit and wait in the station for the evening peak to end before you can board a return.

You can pay an Excess and return in the peak.

 

[Bungle73]

What I expect that will happen is that almost everywhere will gain evening peak restrictions. For some this will mean a significant increase in fares. On the other hand there will be ever more split ticketing opportunities.

Why are they intent on making the railway as unattractive as possible? What with strikes and now that I might as well get a car.

 

[Hadders]

What I expect that will happen is that almost everywhere will gain evening peak restrictions. For some this will mean a significant increase in fares. On the other hand there will be ever more split ticketing opportunities.

I agree. One of the biggest issues will be evening peak restrictions and how these are dealt with on longer distance journeys where a change is required. I think there will be significant fares increases for many people.

 

[Llanigraham]

That sounds like common sense, but when I thought about it I realised that a lot of my rail journeys don't fit that model, so I wonder how many others are similar. Does anyone have data on the proportions of travellers making return journeys?

Quite a few of my local area journeys do not involve going back exactly the way I went, and a lot of our longer distance leisure journeys are not direct out and back ones either. Examples include

I would suggest you are in a very small and very niche minority with those journeys.

 

[Bungle73]

I agree. One of the biggest issues will be evening peak restrictions and how these are dealt with on longer distance journeys where a change is required. I think there will be significant fares increases for many people.

Which is just what we need isn't it.

 

[TAS]

I also like the flexibility of a return ticket, in that the return is valid for a whole month.

I would hope that, if you pay for a return journey all in one transaction, the single ticket for the return half of the journey has the same validity as the return portion of a return ticket.

But if you need flexibility about the date of return, you could of course wait until you know when you will be returning before purchasing your ticket back, and under this system that would cost you the same as if you'd bought it with the outward ticket so you wouldn't be left out of pocket. Indeed, if you needed to come back over a month later, the price would be the same - that's arguably more flexible! To my mind, the potential issues are at a deeper level - how are the prices set, peak periods determined etc.

 

[robbeech]

You can pay an Excess and return in the peak.

In the interest of fairness, there is an advantage to this, if your outward journey was off peak and your return was originally off peak but a change of plan forced a return in the evening peak, you’d only be excessing a half price single instead of the full return ticket.

It’s clear there are positives from the concept, my concern is shared with most others here though, the railway will use it as a further excuse to increase fares by stealth and continue to decimate passenger rights.

After all, if every single return price was halved to find the single price this would show as a massive reduction in fares when averaged out but would leave most people no better/worse off.

 

[Wallsendmag]

There were stealth price rises on LNER's single leg fares trial; people who previously benefited from Off Peak reruns have to either buy Anytime Singles, or opt out of the trial by purchasing to/from an alternative station.

I also doubt day returns for journeys such as Derby to Sheffield, or Peterborough to York, will be halved.

You seem to have convieniently missed the fact that Advance tickets are avaulable until departure meaning that there is no need to buy your return half until you know exactly what train you wish to travel on even if that means buying at the station as you arrive to travel. In this way the fare paid could be much less than the current return.

 

[158756]

But if you need flexibility about the date of return, you could of course wait until you know when you will be returning before purchasing your ticket back, and under this system that would cost you the same as if you'd bought it with the outward ticket so you wouldn't be left out of pocket. Indeed, if you needed to come back over a month later, the price would be the same - that's arguably more flexible! To my mind, the potential issues are at a deeper level - how are the prices set, peak periods determined etc.

This doesn't actually benefit you though unless the price of a single is reduced. In this situation all you are gaining is the satisfaction that other people were not able to get a cheaper price. This might be simpler, but it isn't good for passengers.

If I make a journey into Manchester, the single fare is 10p less than the off peak return. This is so foreseeable that under cover of making things simpler for passengers there is going to be a 99% fare rise. Yes there are cheaper advances, but a) advances on local trains are stupid and b) they can be withdrawn entirely on the whim of the TOC, or be unavailable on the dates when people most want to travel.

 

[yorkie]

You seem to have convieniently missed the fact that Advance tickets are avaulable until departure

Are available or might be available?

meaning that there is no need to buy your return half until you know exactly what train you wish to travel on even if that means buying at the station as you arrive to travel. In this way the fare paid could be much less than the current return.

It could be less, but it could alternatively be more, couldn't it?

Also what if your business requires tickets to be purchased before the trip and/or within a specific budget?

The attached journey from Leeds to London for tomorrow costs more, for Advance single fares, than it did before the trial (and indeed still does for a longer journey, e.g. Leeds to West Hampstead) on a flexible return:


Total price for Leeds - London, with the single fares trial, is £217 for 2 x Advance Singles, or £291 for 2 x Anytime Singles

Total price for Leeds to West Hampstead, which is outside this trial, is £203.70 Off Peak return

Spoiler: Image descriptions

The first image shows a Leeds to London journey, departing Leeds 0815, and arriving back into Leeds at 2021; an Off Peak Return at £203.70 is no longer available, so passengers must either buy Anytime Single fares or pay £108.50 each way (£217 in total) for Advance fares.

In contrast, Leeds to West Hampstead is not in the single leg fares trial, so the passenger only pays £203.70 for a flexible return

Are the Advance prices likely to go up, down or remain the same tomorrow?

Is this going to become more widespread?

(Of course, savvy passengers could use the forum's site and pay £139.74, but that's a whole new topic!)

 

[Hadders]

In the interest of fairness, there is an advantage to this, if your outward journey was off peak and your return was originally off peak but a change of plan forced a return in the evening peak, you’d only be excessing a half price single instead of the full return ticket.

It’s clear there are positives from the concept, my concern is shared with most others here though, the railway will use it as a further excuse to increase fares by stealth and continue to decimate passenger rights.

After all, if every single return price was halved to find the single price this would show as a massive reduction in fares when averaged out but would leave most people no better/worse off.

That is a positive but the boggest issue for me is that the cost of travel for many will likely sky rocket. Look at Derby to Sheffield - how mych will the new ANytime and Off Peak single fares be. I bet they won't be £12.45 and £6.65. And it'll cost a lot more than £6.65 to travel in the evening peak.

Anytime Return £44.00
Anytime Day Return £24.90
Off Peak Return £24.70 (morning restrictions, no evening restrictions)
Off Peak Day Return £13.30 (morning restrictions, no evening restrictions)

Anytime Single £24.80
Off Peak Day Single £13.30 (morning restrictions, no evening restrictions)

 

[Wallsendmag]

Are available or might be available?

It could be less, but it could also be more, couldn't it?

Also what if your business requires tickets to be purchased before the trip and/or within a specific budget?

The maximum would be the return price that you could have bought previously, you have a warped way of only looking at the negatives. Or maybe having been involved with single leg pricing for the last three or four years I've just become so used to the idea that it seems far simpler.

That is a positive but the boggest issue for me is that the cost of travel for many will likely sky rocket. Look at Derby to Sheffield - how mych will the new ANytime and Off Peak single fares be. I bet they won't be £12.45 and £6.65. And it'll cost a lot more than £6.65 to travel in the evening peak.

Anytime Return £44.00
Anytime Day Return £24.90
Off Peak Return £24.70 (morning restrictions, no evening restrictions)
Off Peak Day Return £13.30 (morning restrictions, no evening restrictions)

Anytime Single £24.80
Off Peak Day Single £13.30 (morning restrictions, no evening restrictions)

Don't forget Advance available until departure, so you can buy from a TVM or App on your way to the return train. You need to change the way you think about buying tickets completely. Theres no requiremnet to book both legs on the way out if you 're not sure when you're returning.

 

[dk1]

I always thought having the small difference between the cost of a single compared to a return was a good idea. If they slipped through the net on the outward journey the loss to the railway was small if you caught them on the return. Also years ago with saver fares being around £1 difference there was never any refund due when taking the admin fee into account.

 

[robbeech]

You seem to have convieniently missed the fact that Advance tickets are avaulable until departure meaning that there is no need to buy your return half until you know exactly what train you wish to travel on even if that means buying at the station as you arrive to travel. In this way the fare paid could be much less than the current return.

It COULD be. But the super off peak single price for example between London and Leeds is 2/3 of the way up the advance tiers (of which it’s not known if the lowest tier(s) are used. There are 9 advance tiers with higher prices than the super off peak single.
Looking at this moment, trains over the next 2 hours do have advances available, and most will save you between £10 and £15 from the super off peak price, a welcome saving, but suggesting passengers buy advances rather dilutes the argument for half price singles no?

 

[yorkie]

The maximum would be the return price that you could have bought previously, you have a warped way of only looking at the negatives. Or maybe having been involved with single leg pricing for the last three or four years I've just become so used to the idea that it seems far simpler.

Is it? How does one pay the previous price of 203.70? (other than use a different website such as the forum's, or search for a different journey, such as Leeds to West Hampstead... but that won't be an option if all the fares move to the Leeds to London single pricing model!)

Don't forget Advance available until departure, so you can buy from a TVM or App on your way to the return train. You need to change the way you think about buying tickets completely. Theres no requiremnet to book both legs on the way out if you 're not sure when you're returning.

They are available or could/might be? And will Advance fares be cheaper than the former return fare that was available?

 

[Merseysider]

Hmm. Take Birmingham to Manchester. I often travel up to Manc after work (about 5pm) for some drinks with friends, returning the same night. Before my railcard the prices are £43.40 Off Peak Return and £99.10 Anytime Return.

So for people like me travelling up in the evening (rush hour but not “peak”) will the return journey stay at £43? I doubt it - much more likely is a price rise by stealth and it’d end up being £50 + £20.

Unless we do away with the evening peak entirely, across the whole country... now that’d be “simple”

 

[Wallsendmag]

Hmm. Take Birmingham to Manchester. I often travel up to Manc after work for some drinks with friends, returning the same night. Before my railcard the prices are £43.40 Off Peak Return and £99.10 Anytime Return.

So for people like me travelling up in the evening (rush hour but not “peak”) will the return journey stay at £43? I doubt it - much more likely is a price rise by stealth and it’d end up being £50 + £20.

Unless we do away with the evening peak entirely, across the whole country... now that’d be “simple”

Again you could buy an Advance each way , forget the difference between Advance and Walk Up fares and just think of every journey having a wider range of fares available until departure.

 

[yorkie]

Again you could buy an Advance each way , forget the difference between Advance and Walk Up fares and just think of every journey having a wider range of fares available until departure.

You could but some businesses require tickets to be bought in advance, and is Leeds to London really cheaper on Advance fares, than at the old Off Peak Return price, on the relevant trains? Are my screenshots not correct; is there an error on the LNER website or something?

LNER want 217 quid (108.50 each way) on non-flexible Advance Leeds to London fares, but Leeds to West Hampstead is 203.70 (Off Peak return) while the forum's site charges 139.74

Just to be clear, passengers are best off buying Advance fares, waiting until just before they board the train (to be sure of what train they will catch), search for the actual journey made, and use the LNER site, and get a good deal, right?

 

[ar10642]

You just know that they're just going to take the current off peak single fare and make you buy that twice, which will make the already high fares in the SE even more unattractive vs cost of fuel.

 

[FOH]

Since Covid haven't we seen quite a balancing between the previously highly skewed peak Vs off peak demand? In which case isn't it fair to balance fares accordingly?

 

[Magdalia]

That sounds like common sense, but when I thought about it I realised that a lot of my rail journeys don't fit that model, so I wonder how many others are similar. Does anyone have data on the proportions of travellers making return journeys?

Quite a few of my local area journeys do not involve going back exactly the way I went, and a lot of our longer distance leisure journeys are not direct out and back ones either. Examples include:

• going to work by rail but coming back by bus so I can visit shops along the bus route
• Getting a train to Windermere, then walking across the Lake District and getting a train home from Ravenglass.
• Combining a stay in Scotland with visiting various friends and family meaning rail tickets for London - York, Saltburn - Edinburgh, Leuchars - Kyle of Lochalsh, and Kyle of Lochalsh - London.
• For a trip to Somerset next week, my wife has a Darlington - Bristol booking, I have a Surbiton - Yeovil one and we are both booked for Castle Cary - Paddington for a week later.

These are good examples of possible exceptions. I could come up with similar examples myself. But they are exceptional. It would be nice to have data, but this forum is definitely not an unbiassed sample of rail users. In theory big data could crunch ticket sales but there are so many perverse incentives in the ticketing system that I don't have confidence that the tickets people buy actually represent the journeys they are making, split ticketing being the most obvious example.

One of the huge disadvantages of the current system is that these distortions deprive management of useful data on how customers really want to use the network.

 

[Richardr]

We are told, rightly or wrongly, that leisure travel is back to or above pre-Covid levels, whereas commuter travel remains lower. Wouldn't effectively abolishing cheap day returns and the like penalize the leisure traveller, whilst if the whole thing was revenue neutral help the commuter? Is that the aim?

Note too we need to be careful as to what revenue neutral means. If it is with today's travelling pattern, it won't be with tomorrows. Firstly, people change behaviour due to the cost, and over many years and many different companies, the structure of cheaper returns at certain periods has been considered to maximize revenue. Secondly, on the other hand, if it works as proponents claim, it should raise revenue with more journeys.

 

[Meole]

How will this effect open access operators ?

 

[yorkie]

We are told, rightly or wrongly, that leisure travel is back to or above pre-Covid levels, whereas commuter travel remains lower. Wouldn't effectively abolishing cheap day returns and the like penalize the leisure traveller, whilst if the whole thing was revenue neutral help the commuter? Is that the aim?

Note too we need to be careful as to what revenue neutral means. If it is with today's travelling pattern, it won't be with tomorrows. Firstly, people change behaviour due to the cost, and over many years and many different companies, the structure of cheaper returns at certain periods has been considered to maximize revenue. Secondly, on the other hand, if it works as proponents claim, it should raise revenue with more journeys.

Revenue neutral must always be opposed as it means fare increases by stealth for many people.

How will this effect open access operators ?

They are free to set their own fares; they generally set walk-up singles at something like 60% of the cost of returns (very broadly speaking) and rarely offer the off peak day (CDR) fares which are likely under severe threat from these proposals.

 

[Wallsendmag]

How will this effect open access operators ?

They tend to go their own way.