End of the line for return rail tickets

[miklcct]

I strongly support the abolition of return tickets, even if it means I may need to pay more travelling in the evening peak. The savings made when I take the train out / coach back, or triangular journeys as mentioned before, are large enough. It also reduces the need to find loophole tickets / creative routing just because I don't use the exact same route out and back and travelling between the exact same points.

For example, if I start from Waterloo and return to Wimbledon, effectively part of the return ticket is wasted. By using singles I can just buy exact what I want just before I board the train.

 

[duncanp]

How is split ticketing a "scam"?

I cannot see e-tickets being scrapped, given how popular it is; as long as that is around, you cannot realistically prevent split ticketing.

Would they make it a condition of travel that you must tap in before boarding the train.

So to use my earlier example, would they program the gates at station C to reject the ticket if the ticket hadn't been scanned before boarding at B.

Then what happens if station C doesn't have any gates, or is unstaffed?

 

[yorkie]

Would they make it a condition of travel that you must tap in before boarding the train.

So to use my earlier example, would they program the gates at station C to reject the ticket if the ticket hadn't been scanned before boarding at B.

Then what happens if station C doesn't have any gates, or is unstaffed?

It's been debated before and it's impracticable; any suggestions of this nature need to be discussed in Speculative Discussion but it's been done to death previously to be honest.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bang goes the freedom offfered by Break of Journey on the return leg

How often does anyone make an unplanned overnight BoJ? It must be single figures of people each year on the whole railway.

A planned break can be done with two singles, and it might even be cheaper!

 

[Birkonian]

Merseyrail offer day returns which are only slightly more expensive than singles. However, they do not sell sell period returns. I can't see rhem willing to reduce the price of their single tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail offer day returns which are only slightly more expensive than singles. However, they do not sell sell period returns. I can't see rhem willing to reduce the price of their single tickets.

Most Merseyrail tickets sold are zonal day tickets.

 

[Watershed]

How often does anyone make an unplanned overnight BoJ? It must be single figures of people each year on the whole railway.

A planned break can be done with two singles, and it might even be cheaper!

As we don't have mileage based pricing, it will very rarely be cheaper to buy two singles. Most of the time it will cost a lot more.

 

[PG]

A planned break can be done with two singles, and it might even be cheaper!

...and the government might decide to price singles at 50% of the return!

 

[Typhoon]

I don't get it, just when people are returning to using the railways, they want to dissuade people from train travel. They may want to increase revenue but driving passengers away is not the answer. People don't like change and telling them that they've got to accept it will just drive them away. There may be a case to be made but not now. Yes, train travel can be confusing, but, by and large, at least where I am, people understand returns:

• If you are travelling from Kent & East Sussex into London, Off-Peak tickets are valid on trains that arrive into London after 10am*.
• If you are travelling from London to Kent & East Sussex, Off-Peak tickets are valid on trains departing from London after 9.30am.

They should ditch the * (a few earlier trains as well - KISS) otherwise dead simple.

Return (rarely from London) my ticket is rarely checked on board, some of the stations I join at have gates (occasionally unstaffed) although one has two sets of gates, not both are continuously staffed, neither of the stations I return to are gated (or staffed in the evenings), I know enough stations where I can join without my ticket being checked simply because I have used them and cursed that I've bothered getting my ticket out of the plastic wallet only to find the gate open/ there aren't any. Not worth even considering, return 60p more than single. Once it gets to £30, people will.

Different point - I understand that with a return ticket, I can take a break of journey on the return journey, presumably that would go?
Also, twice a year I attend a meeting, expenses paid. I currently get a return ticket and can claim. If they have an evening peak, I won't be able to buy the return leg (3 trains and the underground) until after the meeting which ends when the gobby finally shut up. Not a big point but I am not the only person who needs to claim expenses.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't get it, just when people are returning to using the railways, they want to dissuade people from train travel.

Who does? Single leg pricing in London on Oyster / Contactless and single leg pricing for Advance purchase tickets has been a significant factor in increasing the simplicity of travel for those markets.

At least in part, the proposals are an attempt to persuade people to travel. It will only be down to the implementation if it fails. I'd give the authorities the benefit of the doubt that they think it will make things better.

What is essentially being discussed is whether it is acceptable for there to be winners and losers from fares reform.

 

[Birkonian]

Most Merseyrail tickets sold are zonal day tickets.

There plenty of single tickets sold to travellers heading to the airports or say to London for a weekend.

 

[VC00]

I don't get it, just when people are returning to using the railways, they want to dissuade people from train travel. They may want to increase revenue but driving passengers away is not the answer. People don't like change and telling them that they've got to accept it will just drive them away. There may be a case to be made but not now. Yes, train travel can be confusing, but, by and large, at least where I am, people understand returns:

Looks more like its targetted at commuters who have no other than to use the train, car and coach either being too expensive/long. Removing period returns reduces the number of people using the return section more than once.

 

[Watershed]

Single leg pricing in London on Oyster / Contactless and single leg pricing for Advance purchase tickets has been a significant factor in increasing the simplicity of travel for those markets.

I am unconvinced that single leg pricing has been the significant factor there. PAYG around London is much easier than having to buy a ticket in advance, and Advances have sometimes been cheaper than walk-up ticket. But you could do both of those things without needing to have single leg pricing.

 

[MKB]

...
For a start, the railway companies lose some money where passengers currently buy single fares at the price of a return and would get it at 50% instead....

There is another side to that revenue equation though.

I frequently need to travel in one direction only (for example to meet up with someone after work where I'll have a lift back in their car.). The high cost of the single rail fare means that I end up driving both ways on my own in my car.

If the single fare was always priced at half the return, the rail industry gets extra revenue from me, and there is one less road journey made, so good for the environment too.

 

[miklcct]

In addition, I also support higher fare in the evening peak as well. Most of the time I travel in the evening peak, the trains are full to crush loaded - even when trains are running every 4 minutes eastwards from Stratford. Similar crush loading also appears on other lines from London as well, e.g. Paddington to Ealing Broadway, Waterloo to Wimbledon, Victoria to East Croydon, etc.

My desired fare structure is 3-tiered: peak fare for morning to London and evening from London, off-peak fare for other daytime journeys, super off-peak fare for really quiet times (after 19:00 arriving London and before 07:30 from London) and Sundays, while for non-London flows, just weekday daytime and super off-peak (evening and Sundays).

 

[MKB]

I would hope that any single-ticket only system would protect the right of passengers to refunds.

If any single-ticket leg of an itinerary is cancelled or rescheduled, passengers in my view should have the right to a refund of their whole itinerary.

If I am booked to travel down to London on a Friday and to return on a Sunday, and a strike means no trains will run on Sunday and my trip by train becomes impossible, it's no good allowing only a refund for the single journey home.

 

[dingdinger]

No, you're not. Privs are digital these days and have been for some time.

Can't always get an e-ticket

 

[John Luxton]

If one is doing a round trip journey presumably one could still ask for a return to a destination and be given a single in each direction? Is this a ploy to keep ticket offices open as it would probably increase their use?

It is about time fares were simplified and personally I would like to see something like Day Return, Weekend Return, Short Break Return and open ended return, with the day returns being the cheapest.

Scrap all the advance fares which invariable seem to be source of controversy if someone boards the wrong train and gets a penalty fare or is prosecuted.

 

[Merseysider]

The whole split ticket scam needs stopping anyway so don't be surprised if these bargains like the aforementioned Birmingham option bite the dust

If you are on a contactless card/ ITSO surely you would need to tap in / out

Ahhh see now where they've got you

How is it a scam?

If you think £370 is a fair price to go Manchester to London and back in rush hour then carry on.

But most people would rather save money, and split ticketing is a perfectly legitimate way to do that.

Highly unlikely contactless cards would be viable for long distance journeys - you’d need a “maximum fare” in case someone doesn’t tap out, so you’d put that at £185 just in case someone doesn’t tap out on a Manchester - Stockport journey, to cover anyone going to London?

ITSO might work in the Netherlands etc but they’re a 1/6 the size of our country and fares don’t tend to cost the Earth.

 

[30907]

Today Avanti are giving the misleading impression that the cheapest single fare between Piccadilly and Euston on some trains is an Advance single at £93.60 when the walk up single is £68.60. Presumably DfT is condoning this.

Journey Planner - Trains Times and Fares - National Rail Enquiries

The gateway to Britain's National Rail network. A portal into UK rail travel including train company information and promotions; train times; fares enquiries; ticket purchase and train running information.

ojp.nationalrail.co.uk

This is because of their (inappropriate or whatever adjective you prefer and the mods will permit) compulsory reservation policy. The higher fares are Standard Premium because "standard is full"

 

[Merseysider]

This is because of their (inappropriate or whatever adjective you prefer and the mods will permit) compulsory reservation policy. The higher fares are Standard Premium because "standard is full"

And yet I guarantee someone turning up at a ticket office who asks for an Off Peak return will be sold it... it’s completely daft.

 

[Goldfish62]

Industry leaders and commentors (eg Christian Woolmar, Man at Seat 61,etc etc) have been calling for this move for a long time as a way of making rail travel more attractive and anyone who reads the railway press will know that.

I'm therefore surprised there's so much negativity on this forum to the very concept.

It's also recognised that there will be winners and losers. What is vital is that there are more winners than losers. That's my concern - it simply has to be got right.

 

[JonathanH]

It is about time fares were simplified and personally I would like to see something like Day Return, Weekend Return, Short Break Return and open ended return, with the day returns being the cheapest.

That isn't really a simplification. It is four different types of return replacing two. Single leg pricing means that a day return costs the same as a period return.

Industry leaders and commentors (eg Christian Woolmar, Man at Seat 61,etc etc) have been calling for this move for a long time as a way of making rail travel more attractive and anyone who reads the railway press will know that.

I'm therefore surprised there's so much negativity on this forum to the very concept.

Indeed.

The concern seems to be that, to ensure there isn't a huge drop in revenue from people currently paying the highest fares, the lowest fares are increased. However, it also has to be acknowledged that people repeatedly ask for a leveling off of higher and lower fares.

 

[Wallsendmag]

That isn't really a simplification. It is four different types of return replacing two. Single leg pricing means that a day return costs the same as a period return.

For the last time, I’ll but out after this , it really doesn’t. That would be the max fare , you may get a cheaper fare by buying an Advance on the way out and a flexible ticket or Advance on the way back depending if you know when you are travelling. You really need to think about journeys in a new way.

 

[WatcherZero]

You can pay an Excess and return in the peak.

Which is an additional 45% (3.70 more ontop of a 7.10 ticket) to travel back an hour earlier, might as well just buy a drink in the pub.

 

[jayah]

More ladders than snakes, though the devil is always in the detail.

It makes it easier to implement evening ticket restrictions and easier to avoid them.

Less confusion than return tickets with asymmetric time restrictions in either direction.

Cheaper to mix Peak one way and Off Peak the other.

May dramatically enhance long distance split ticketing options where the best prices now are only available as Off Peak Day Returns.

 

[Lampshade]

Hard to see a winner here except whichever Tory donor is behind it.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

If we are to have digital tickets, then these must conform to a national system and be accepted by all TOCs. I don't want to have to buy a separate ticket for my connecting Merseyrail train to Liverpool or Chester because ME doesn't recognize Avanti, Northern or TfW tickets. I will inevitably be out of pocket if I have to do this. And, as an old man with a weak bladder, I fear that if Hooton ticket office closes then the toilets at Hooton station will also close. With class 507/508 amd 777 units having no toilets, loos at stations like Hooton are a godsend.

I don't agree with charging per mile. Fares should taper for longer journeys. And charging per mile would be unfair for passengers forced to take circuitous routes due to railway geography or poor services/timings on direct routes. The concept of "Any permitted" routings at a fixed fare must remain.

 

[jayah]

ITSO might work in the Netherlands etc but they’re a 1/6 the size of our country and fares don’t tend to cost the Earth.

Netherlands is €48 for an Off Peak Day Travelcard (all public transport not just the train) and there are many 100km city pairs, and a few over 200km.

Not bad for a country where most things are more expensive than the UK.

The Off Peak daily cap just for London Zones 1-6 is £14.

 

[robbeech]

I strongly support the abolition of return tickets, even if it means I may need to pay more travelling in the evening peak. The savings made when I take the train out / coach back, or triangular journeys as mentioned before, are large enough. It also reduces the need to find loophole tickets / creative routing just because I don't use the exact same route out and back and travelling between the exact same points.

For example, if I start from Waterloo and return to Wimbledon, effectively part of the return ticket is wasted. By using singles I can just buy exact what I want just before I board the train.

That’s like strongly supporting the removal of all dogs from the world because you don’t like the new label of a tin of pedigree chum.
We can solve the issue YOU have with return journeys by ensuring that single leg pricing is 50% of the cost of the relevant return, that doesn’t require abolition of return fares to do this.

A planned break can be done with two singles, and it might even be cheaper!

Please do find some examples, the ones I try and look at all seem to be between 25% and 75% more expensive than a valid current return.

I would hope that any single-ticket only system would protect the right of passengers to refunds.

If any single-ticket leg of an itinerary is cancelled or rescheduled, passengers in my view should have the right to a refund of their whole itinerary.

If I am booked to travel down to London on a Friday and to return on a Sunday, and a strike means no trains will run on Sunday and my trip by train becomes impossible, it's no good allowing only a refund for the single journey home.

Currently passengers have no right to refund the return single ticket from those “trial” routes. They also have no right to refund the return advance ticket should their outward journey become impossible due to a failing of the railway. Of course, in some cases a retailer will agree to refund both as a gesture of good will but we must understand that passenger rights are being reduced here. The same obviously applies to delay repay aswell, a 2 hour delay on a return ticket will get 100% of the return cost as compensation, a 2 hour delay on a single ticket only gets 100% of the single ticket, which if we are having tickets at 50% is a reduction of 50% in the compensation offered for the most severe delays.

I'm therefore surprised there's so much negativity on this forum to the very concept.

Have you read the justifiable issues people have been posting about ?