End of the line for return rail tickets

[ar10642]

Almost nobody will buy the £15.30 single, so the expectation is much closer to half of £15.80.

If it's any more than 50% it's a stealth increase on already too expensive fares.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I used to fix the old Swecoin ticket machines, those ageing systems like Atos Tribute will breathe a sigh of relief I wonder if there will be an Oyster style tap in, tap out system, though I wonder about the risks of fraud or abuse any new system such as e tickets could be subject to. The Government have a poor track record when it comes to tech (looks at NHS Track&Trace)

I wonder if Mr Harper will use the excuse of the current strikes to end more franchises to help usher in GBR? Will existing OLRs (Operators of Last Resort) like LNER be the first to be part of GBR?

Must be 15 years since we used those printers

 

[biko]

Single-leg pricing is a huge improvement which actually does simplify things a lot. The only downside to the system itself is the loss of overnight break of journey, which actually could be solved by making singles valid for more than one day, but that won't happen of course. The big problem is in how the new fares will be set and what will happen to the restrictions.

I saw a few people mention the fares increase on routes without evening peak restriction on off-peak tickets where it is expected that those will gain a restriction. I see also a possibility for those flows to implement single-leg pricing in a revenue neutral way without people paying more (ignoring the people that currently use singles). Off-peak singles become half the price of the current off-peak return and keep the same restriction (no travel in morning peak). Anytime singles become current anytime return minus the new off-peak single fare. This will, in most cases, lead to the same fares as now with the same restrictions.

 

[subk2010]

I do understand British Rail is currently under economic pressure. But how is this policy going to attract more passengers to use the railway if many fares would increase?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I strongly support the abolition of return tickets, even if it means I may need to pay more travelling in the evening peak. The savings made when I take the train out / coach back, or triangular journeys as mentioned before, are large enough. It also reduces the need to find loophole tickets / creative routing just because I don't use the exact same route out and back and travelling between the exact same points.

I agree. To my mind this is, in principle, an amazing idea (although I realise there'll be a lot of devil in the detail that might turn out not to be so good). I've lost count of the number of times that I've ended up not travelling by train at all because my journey isn't a simple out-and-back one, and buying two singles would be totally cost-prohibitive. Or the times when I've made a journey that isn't really what I wanted to make because I've had to shoehorn my travel plans into some kind of out-and-back arrangement that I can use a return ticket for. I would expect that singles being half the cost of a return will bring a lot of new rail journeys, and make rail much more competitive with the car for triangular and one-way journeys.

 

[Hadders]

Single-leg pricing is a huge improvement which actually does simplify things a lot. The only downside to the system itself is the loss of overnight break of journey, which actually could be solved by making singles valid for more than one day, but that won't happen of course. The big problem is in how the new fares will be set and what will happen to the restrictions.

I saw a few people mention the fares increase on routes without evening peak restriction on off-peak tickets where it is expected that those will gain a restriction. I see also a possibility for those flows to implement single-leg pricing in a revenue neutral way without people paying more (ignoring the people that currently use singles). Off-peak singles become half the price of the current off-peak return and keep the same restriction (no travel in morning peak). Anytime singles become current anytime return minus the new off-peak single fare. This will, in most cases, lead to the same fares as now with the same restrictions.

Perhaps you could tell us what you expect the new fares would be for London to Manchester and Derby to Sheffield, that would mean no-one pays more than present and is revenue neutral.

Current London to Manchester fares:
Anytime Return £369.40
Off Peak Return £98.10
Anytime Single £184.70
Off Peak Single £68.60

Current Derby to Sheffield Fares:
Anytime Return £44.00
Anytime Day Return £24.90
Off Peak Return £24.70 (morning restrictions, no evening restrictions)
Off Peak Day Return £13.30 (morning restrictions, no evening restrictions)
Anytime Single £24.80
Off Peak Day Single £13.30 (morning restrictions, no evening restrictions)

 

[JonathanH]

I do understand British Rail is currently under economic pressure. But how is this policy going to attract more passengers to use the railway if many fares would increase?

The absolute fare isn't always the only thing on which passengers make a decision to travel on. There is no explicit need to attract more passengers to the railway - increasing revenue with fewer passengers would also be a good outcome for the railway.

Let's not forget that for every passenger who pays more, another may pay less. Most of the dissention in this thread is the fear of off-peak travel becoming more expensive, but passengers who currently pay higher fares to travel in the morning peak, but travel back at an off peak time may pay less.

The story is not by any means only bad news.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps you could tell us what you expect the new fares would be for London to Manchester and Derby to Sheffield, that would mean no-one pays more than present and is revenue neutral.

Current London to Manchester fares:
Anytime Return £369.40
Off Peak Return £98.10
Anytime Single £184.70
Off Peak Single £68.60

Current Derby to Sheffield Fares:
Anytime Return £44.00
Anytime Day Return £24.90
Off Peak Return £24.70 (morning restrictions, no evening restrictions)
Off Peak Day Return £13.30 (morning restrictions, no evening restrictions)
Anytime Single £24.80
Off Peak Day Single £13.30 (morning restrictions, no evening restrictions)

It is impossible for any of us to do that because the number of single vs return sales is not available to the public as it is commercial in confidence.

 

[Hadders]

It is impossible for any of us to do that because the number of single vs return sales is not available to the public as it is commercial in confidence.

The point is I highly doubt the new Off Peak Single between London and Manchester will be £49.05 or between Derby and Sheffield £6.65. That means there will be significant prive increases for a significant number of people, that is unacceptable.

 

[yorkie]

I do understand British Rail is currently under economic pressure. But how is this policy going to attract more passengers to use the railway if many fares would increase?

Fares have increased above inflation for several years on the basis that many people have no viable or better option. The Government and rail industry are happy for demand to be suppressed on the basis that they don't have to provide the sort of increase in capacity that would be required if rail fares were attractive. But that's a wider issue more suited for debate elsewhere.

Edit: what I'd like the Government to do is to promise that every relevant return fare will be halved. This would set all our minds at rest. Unless they do that, I am very sceptical...

 

[subk2010]

Fares have increased above inflation for several years on the basis that many people have no viable or better option. The Government and rail industry are happy for demand to be suppressed on the basis that they don't have to provide the sort of increase in capacity that would be required if rail fares were attractive. But that's a wider issue more suited for debate elsewhere.

You're right

 

[185]

One point of note, from a govt-getting-revenue point of view... currently:

- Mr Chancer tries for a free ride but gets stopped on the way out, he buys the £4 return.
or
- Mr Chancer cannot be reached by the guard or doesn't pass a barrier, he travels out free.

then
- later, Mr Chancer has a second chance of being caught by the guard on the way back, and pays £3.80 single

So currently, he's only saved 20p for his efforts and risks PF or, worse a prosecution.

Drop to a lower fare and less cash will go into the pot.

 

[ar10642]

The absolute fare isn't always the only thing on which passengers make a decision to travel on. There is no explicit need to attract more passengers to the railway - increasing revenue with fewer passengers would also be a good outcome for the railway.

Not a great outcome for people that need to travel is it? Rail is already seen as much too expensive by most people.

 

[reb0118]

I am going to wait for details before analusing

Waiting is good - but one should seriously think about getting medical advice before acting on the above.

 

[ar10642]

Let's not forget that for every passenger who pays more, another may pay less.

Why does that follow? If they increase all prices, everyone pays more. Unless they have enough of it and just stop using rail of course.

Most of the dissention in this thread is the fear of off-peak travel becoming more expensive, but passengers who currently pay higher fares to travel in the morning peak, but travel back at an off peak time may pay less.

How many people that apply to? I'd guess not many. If you're on peak time travel it's likely for work, not many are likely to want to hang around until after 7 on a regular basis.

The story is not by any means only bad news.

Remains to be seen but I'd be prepared to bet it is.

 

[AlterEgo]

The absolute fare isn't always the only thing on which passengers make a decision to travel on. There is no explicit need to attract more passengers to the railway - increasing revenue with fewer passengers would also be a good outcome for the railway.

Let's not forget that for every passenger who pays more, another may pay less. Most of the dissention in this thread is the fear of off-peak travel becoming more expensive, but passengers who currently pay higher fares to travel in the morning peak, but travel back at an off peak time may pay less.

The story is not by any means only bad news.

In any case, at least when it comes to discretionary travel, the absolute fare isn’t the only concern but rather the fairness of the system.

 

[Cdd89]

One point of note, from a govt-getting-revenue point of view... currently:

- Mr Chancer tries for a free ride but gets stopped on the way out, he buys the £4 return.
or
- Mr Chancer cannot be reached by the guard or doesn't pass a barrier, he travels out free.

I recall reading this rationale as a reason for the closeness in single vs return fares in the BR era.

However, far more stations are gated now and penalty fare areas are far more prevalent (with the penalty fare having recently been dramatically increased).

 

[busestrains]

Story in the Telegraph today, not yet available online but it has made the front page (amongst the lettuce and the balloon):



Big news seems to be:

• GBR will still go ahead
• Single-leg pricing being rolled out across the network?
• Commitment to Project Oval and possible ending of CCST?

Getting rid of Return tickets has to be one of the stupidest decisions that the railway has ever made. The railways of the UK have made some very stupid decisions over the years but i think this tops it as the worst of the worst. Almost all passengers that use trains make Return journeys. Almost everyone who travels by train does one journey from their origin to destination to go to work or to the shops or supermarket or visit someone or whatever reason and then makes one journey back to get back from their destination to their origin. Yes there a small amount of passengers who will make Single journeys for whatever reason but the amount of passengers who make Single journeys is tiny compared to those who make Return journeys.

My pet hate is these bus companies that have stopped selling Return tickets and force you to buy two Single tickets or a Day ticket when all you want is a Return ticket to make one Return journey. I specifically go out of my way to avoid such bus companies. So i am really dreading this nonsense being introduced to trains too.

Also by buying a Return you save a huge amount of money compared to buying two Single tickets. On the buses a Return is generally 1.5x the Single fare (so a £2.00 Single would be £3.00 Return etc) however on the railways Return tickets are normally just 10p more than a Single ticket. So on the railways you save a huge amount of money with Return tickets. For a random example on the railways a £20.80 Single can be £20.90 Return so only 10p more. But if they get rid of Return tickets we will certainly end up paying a huge increase in price. I think there is very little chance of lowering the Single fares so most people will pay double what they pay now. Even on the rare chance that they do lower the Single fares to be the same price then it will still be very annoying to have to purchase two Single tickets rather than a Return ticket.

The practise of offering Return tickets which give a significant discount over two Single tickets has been around for years and works perfectly. So why change it. If it is not broken why fix it. They are creating a problem out of something that works perfectly.

Our railways have been getting worse and worse every year since privatisation. Especially since the corona virus they have declined massively. Getting rid of Return tickets is just going to put people off travelling by train. More people will choose the car if they can not get a Return ticket.

Also what will happen with the Travelcard tickets from outside the zones? These are issued as one ticket which is a Return from wherever you are to the boundary and then a day Travelcard ticket? So for example you can buy a ticket from Salisbury or Lewes or Guildford or Dorking or Tonbridge etc to London Zones 1 to 6 so i can not think what will happen to these? If they get rid of Return tickets will they still keep these or will we be forced to buy three separate tickets (a single from our origin to the boundary plus a Travelcard plus a single from the boundary to our origin) instead of just one simple ticket?

 

[skyhigh]

I think there is very little chance of lowering the Single fares so most people will pay double what they pay now.

I don't think there's really much suggestion the Return fare will go with no reduction at all in the Single fare.

 

[milgram]

I take the train to go to work. A return ticket costs me £3.80, while a single is £3.20.

Does this mean there's a chance that I will now pay 2x£3.20=£6.40 (a +68% increase) for my commute?

 

[Snow1964]

I take the train to go to work. A return ticket costs me £3.80, while a single is £3.20.

Does this mean there's a chance that I will now pay 2x£3.20=£6.40 (a +68% increase) for my commute?

And that is the reason why so many are objecting to the idea on this thread, is it a ticket price increase by stealth

Or will price of return stay same, and single price be adjusted.

No one knows at the moment until details are published, apparently there is to be a speech by Mark Harper, Transport Secretary tomorrow (Tuesday), but unclear if it will be more an outline concept, or a detailed proposal.

 

[biko]

Perhaps you could tell us what you expect the new fares would be for London to Manchester and Derby to Sheffield, that would mean no-one pays more than present and is revenue neutral

I have no idea what will happen, but with the current government it will probably be an increase for nearly everyone. What I was trying to show was that it isn’t impossible to let everybody pay the same prices at the same times if off-peak returns don’t have evening restrictions and ignoring the small number of people who now buy singles. But in your first example the return is so expensive that it is impossible to do this. And your second example shows another problem which cannot be solved in a good way for everybody and I also haven’t a solution for.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Little confused about the peak/off peak thing. One of the earlier posts in this thread mentioned that they would be removed...? Tbf, that would make things a little easier as I can never remember when peak and off peak are . I can't open the telegraph cos its behind a pay wall. Is there a way for me to read it? Or can someone give an extended tl;dr past what the original post said..?

 

[Man_with_beard]

I really can't see the government making it cheaper for the passenger by abolishing returns. I mean come on, when have THIS government made anything cheaper? But not to worry because they won't be in power for much longer anyway so I don't see this coming into effect anytime soon.

 

[GoneSouth]

I mean come on, when have THIS government made anything cheaper? But not to worry because they won't be in power for much longer anyway so I don't see this coming into effect anytime soon.

This government certainly just made your gas bill cheaper

Oh, and they just capped bus fares for 3 months at £2 per journey.

I’m not defending them, I’ll be very happy to see the back of the corruption, lies and self interest from this set of politicians who have taken politics in this country to an all time low.

But they have made those 2 things cheaper… temporarily.

 

[meld3]

Will be interesting to see what happens to all the XX - London zone 1-6 return tickets. Guess they will become XX - London tickets and buy your own zone 1-6 travelcard !!

 

[Richardr]

To be fair, this year's rise is below inflation, so, for the first time in decades the real price of regulated train fares will fall this year.

As others have said, the devil is in the detail, and it is impossible to comment too much without knowing that. The one thing we will know is that the losers will make the most noise. Simplification is theory is good on its own, but flexing prices to deal with demand is also good, but the two are diametrically opposites.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Getting rid of Return tickets has to be one of the stupidest decisions that the railway has ever made. The railways of the UK have made some very stupid decisions over the years but i think this tops it as the worst of the worst. Almost all passengers that use trains make Return journeys. Almost everyone who travels by train does one journey from their origin to destination to go to work or to the shops or supermarket or visit someone or whatever reason and then makes one journey back to get back from their destination to their origin. Yes there a small amount of passengers who will make Single journeys for whatever reason but the amount of passengers who make Single journeys is tiny compared to those who make Return journeys.

My pet hate is these bus companies that have stopped selling Return tickets and force you to buy two Single tickets or a Day ticket when all you want is a Return ticket to make one Return journey. I specifically go out of my way to avoid such bus companies. So i am really dreading this nonsense being introduced to trains too.

Also by buying a Return you save a huge amount of money compared to buying two Single tickets. On the buses a Return is generally 1.5x the Single fare (so a £2.00 Single would be £3.00 Return etc) however on the railways Return tickets are normally just 10p more than a Single ticket. So on the railways you save a huge amount of money with Return tickets. For a random example on the railways a £20.80 Single can be £20.90 Return so only 10p more. But if they get rid of Return tickets we will certainly end up paying a huge increase in price. I think there is very little chance of lowering the Single fares so most people will pay double what they pay now. Even on the rare chance that they do lower the Single fares to be the same price then it will still be very annoying to have to purchase two Single tickets rather than a Return ticket.

The practise of offering Return tickets which give a significant discount over two Single tickets has been around for years and works perfectly. So why change it. If it is not broken why fix it. They are creating a problem out of something that works perfectly.

Our railways have been getting worse and worse every year since privatisation. Especially since the corona virus they have declined massively. Getting rid of Return tickets is just going to put people off travelling by train. More people will choose the car if they can not get a Return ticket.

Also what will happen with the Travelcard tickets from outside the zones? These are issued as one ticket which is a Return from wherever you are to the boundary and then a day Travelcard ticket? So for example you can buy a ticket from Salisbury or Lewes or Guildford or Dorking or Tonbridge etc to London Zones 1 to 6 so i can not think what will happen to these? If they get rid of Return tickets will they still keep these or will we be forced to buy three separate tickets (a single from our origin to the boundary plus a Travelcard plus a single from the boundary to our origin) instead of just one simple ticket?

Your post complely ignores all those customers already buying two singles to make a return journey on Advance Tickets.

 

[milgram]

To be fair, this year's rise is below inflation, so, for the first time in decades the real price of regulated train fares will fall this year.

That's only if the price of single tickets really becomes half of the price of a return ticket. Otherwise, unless somehow inflation moves to 90% then the price of any return trip (so any commute) will surpass inflation by a lot

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I take the train to go to work. A return ticket costs me £3.80, while a single is £3.20.

Does this mean there's a chance that I will now pay 2x£3.20=£6.40 (a +68% increase) for my commute?

No. There is absolutely zero chance that that is what will happen. Anyone who thinks that is a serious possibility needs to engage a few brain cells and stop being so melodramatic. The DfT can be pretty bone-headed but they are not stupid enough to suddenly nearly double most rail fares - since that would very obviously cause patronage to plummet, basically ruin the rail industry, and sink the chances of scores of Tory MPs at the next election. And it would cause a major revolt amongst Tory MPs in the Commons too. And it's not what the early leaks are saying either, since the message coming out seems to be that the aim is to be revenue neutral. Since almost all tickets sold are going to be return tickets, staying revenue neutral can only mean, dropping the single fare to about half of what the current return fare is.

What is most likely to happen is that, in your scenario, a single ticket will drop in price to £1.90 (maybe fractionally more), so you'll continue to pay £3.80 (maybe fractionally more) for your return journey, while someone who is only going one way will pay half of that.

There is a big question mark though about what will happen where multiple returns (a day return and a period return) are currently available: Which one will the single fare drop to half of? There's certainly some devil in the detail about that sort of thing.