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End of the line for return rail tickets

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Haywain

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I rather suspect that the new single fares will stay the same, increasing the effective price of a return to two singles.
If it were to go that way it would lead to major fare anolmalies on the East Coast route, as the existing single leg fares from London to Newcastle, Leeds and Edinburgh would be disproportionately low.
 
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fandroid

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- What happens to outboundary Travelcards? It's no secret that TfL want rid of these, could they go entirely at the same time? My previous understanding was that this couldn't happen until railcards can be loaded onto Contactless payment cards, but that's still several years away.
Do we know why TfL want to be rid of Outboundary Travelcard? It seems to me that they could just add the full daily cap price to the ticket to London Terminals instead if the nuanced addition to the Zone 6 boundary price as happens now. Most customers would just want the convenience of one ticket.

Is it because they want to be rid of paper tickets and the mechanical barrier technology to handle them? Also possibly don't want to add Aztec readers to hundreds of stations?
 

Bletchleyite

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Is it because they want to be rid of paper tickets and the mechanical barrier technology to handle them? Also possibly don't want to add Aztec readers to hundreds of stations?

In short, yes. The cost of maintaining that kit is significant, and their own tickets largely don't use it any more (bar paper singles and Travelcards, but they could switch to issuing those on single-use smartcards).

On the other hand, it wouldn't be unduly hard to make outboundary Travelcards issuable on ITSO only, like the Merseytravel ones mostly are. Then the magstripe kit can still go without losing the ticket.
 

DynamicSpirit

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As an example of the benefits of abolishing returns and making singles half the price of existing returns:

In a couple of weeks I need to do a day trip London-Winchester-Alton-London (with the Winchester-Alton leg being by bus). The current system is just not designed to enable those kinds of journeys and I don't believe it provides any way to do that with a reasonable cost. In fact, if I had a car, I'd probably go by car just because the rail fare structure is so unfriendly if it's not a single out-and back return journey.

As it is, I suspect what I'll end up doing is London - Winchester (STOP) - Alton(bus) (STOP) - Winchester (bus) - London [*]: In other words, I'll subject myself to added inconvenience and a rather silly route just so that I can fit into the cheap-return fare structure.

From what little we know of the proposed new system, it'll looks like it'll become much easier to make the trip that I actually want to make at a reasonable-ish price.

[*] The outward leg is time sensitive so London-Alton-Winchester is not an option.
 
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bakerstreet

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But what's better value: Advance tickets for Leeds to London at £108.50 each way, or an Off Peak Return from Leeds to West Hampstead for £203.70?

Also, for business trips, some employers require tickets to be pre-purchased before the trip; this can be problematical when you are unsure what your exact arrival time will be (especially if you require a tube/bus leg to get to the station).
This is the key for me.
Advance fares are fine if that’s what you want to buy but they are too unpredictable.
Sometimes they’re available sometimes they’re not.
Sometimes the lowest X tiers are rested from sale.
Sometimes an advance is £1 below a flexible fare.
It’s only the (regulated) flexible fare which stops the advance fares from being priced even higher.
Some TOCs would love to sell only advance or anytime fares if they could.
We used to have a turn up and go railway. Surely that’s one of its key benefits. Now we have journeys of 15-30 mins on an advance.
It would be great if advances were like the shuttle advances on west coast of old where you booked an afternoon or a morning journey in a time frame with a little flexibility.
Even better if they brought back book with confidence.
 

zwk500

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As an example of the benefits of abolishing returns and making singles half the price of existing returns:

In a couple of weeks I need to do a day trip London-Winchester-Alton-London (with the Winchester-Alton leg being by bus). The current system is just not designed to enable those kinds of journeys and I don't believe it provides any way to do that with a reasonable cost. In fact, if I had a car, I'd probably go by car just because the rail fare structure is so unfriendly if it's not a single out-and back return journey.

As it is, I suspect what I'll end up doing is London - Winchester (STOP) - Alton(bus) (STOP) - Winchester (bus) - London [*]: In other words, I'll subject myself to added inconvenience and a rather silly route just so that I can fit into the cheap-return fare structure.

From what little we know of the proposed new system, it'll looks like it'll become much easier to make the trip that I actually want to make at a reasonable-ish price.

[*] The outward leg is time sensitive so London-Alton-Winchester is not an option.
What this journey really needs is recognition of the bus legs as part of the transport system, and that therefore it's a reasonable route from Winchester to London to get the bus to Alton. Similar provisions could apply across much of the country - Tunbridge Wells/Uckfield to Brighton being one case, I'm sure others will know their own local links.
Note this is separate from bus extensions being included in the rail fare, which also should happen but is a different discussion.
 

Bletchleyite

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We used to have a turn up and go railway. Surely that’s one of its key benefits. Now we have journeys of 15-30 mins on an advance.

Contactless is the future of this sort of journey rather than Advances. I'd agree they are totally unsuitable and are just used as a revenue grab, available in near unlimited numbers and priced just below regular tickets.

And single fare pricing makes contactless a lot easier...
 

Kite159

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Will be interesting to see what happens to all the XX - London zone 1-6 return tickets. Guess they will become XX - London tickets and buy your own zone 1-6 travelcard !!
Or most likely they will use it as an excuse to axe the travelcard all together to force passengers into using contactless/oyster (or pay over the odds for a paper single)
 

Bletchleyite

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Or most likely they will use it as an excuse to axe the travelcard all together to force passengers into using contactless/oyster (or pay over the odds for a paper single)

I could see them being replaced in time by the expansion of contactless, which in the South East will be done via TfL's system so easier to integrate. You'd effectively just be adding Zone 10, 11, 12 etc caps. For those without debit cards "New Oyster" will probably also work (this is a "dumb card" version of Oyster with all the functionality in the back end; the present "smart card" Oyster has too many limitations).

But that'll all happen whether this goes ahead or not, so it's kind-of separate.

Contactless in the other City Regions/Combined Authorities is likely to be separate entirely and will have its own concepts, e.g. Merseyside will probably cap at the Saveaway price, again totally separate from return tickets, which on Merseyside are generally only sold at peak times, and in small numbers as most people travelling then will have a Trio season.
 

Richardr

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That's only if the price of single tickets really becomes half of the price of a return ticket. Otherwise, unless somehow inflation moves to 90% then the price of any return trip (so any commute) will surpass inflation by a lot

My comment was pre any change to single only fares - what is actually happening to train fares this year where the increase in government set regulated fares is lower than inflation.
 

Purple Train

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No, they won't. It's all based around the LNER trial which set the Super Off Peak Single to half the Return. They might not quite go half, thus sneaking in a small increase for some (but a big cut for others), but they're absolutely not just going to abolish returns and leave singles as they are - people would desert the railway in droves, and suggesting that they are is really unhelpful to the discussion.

I would go as far as to say that believing that this will happen is either paranoia or outright conspiracy-theorism. 60%, possibly. 100%, no chance.
I'm not as sure as you are. That being said, I do get slightly paranoid about matters of ticketing simply due to my distrust of electronic ticketing, so I presume you're right. I hope you're right.
As an aside: what would the situation be with Delay Repay compared to what it is now?
 

Watershed

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Yeah, I agree. Fairness (and perceived fairness) is very important. And that's one reason why I think this change looks very positive.
  • It's utterly unfair that, currently, someone who makes a journey one way pays almost the same as someone who makes a return journey (and who therefore uses the railway twice as much)
  • It's also utterly unfair that, currently, on many return journeys, someone who returns the same day pays significantly less than someone who returns the next day - since both people are using the railway to exactly the same extent and deriving the same benefit.
Resolving those issues alone will make rail fares much (ummm) fairer
These things may well be be perceived as unfair by some, but they are generally effective at maximising revenue. There's a reason why the price of long haul flights can be higher for a one-way journey than a return, and why a same or next day return can cost more than leaving a Saturday night before returning - airlines invented revenue optimisation and are masters at it.

Most European countries use single leg pricing and it's a much simpler way for normal passengers to understand the cost of their journeys.
It may be much simpler - but given our government's deep-seated contempt for rail subsidy, it will mean huge fare increases for a lot of people. It will also likely mean that many more splitting opportunities arise (particularly if an evening peak restriction is added to Off-Peak fares) - so the perceived unfairness and complexity of being able to pay much less by splitting will be made even worse!

For users of Super Off Peaks it isn't "fractionally more" on the LNER trial, it's exactly the same. The Off Peak was lost, but it was applicable to only a small number of journeys, some of those can be done with an Anytime Single plus a Super Off Peak Single for about the same money. Some of them might involve an Advance, but I doubt many people ended up paying much if any more. Some may even have found a cheaper way but just bought that ticket by default. Or some might have found they could buy a Super Off Peak out and then bought the return when they knew when they were going to travel, adding further flexibility.
If the Off-Peak ticket only applied to a small number of journeys, as you claim, then surely it would not have been a problem to also halve that fare? You cannot argue it both ways!

No, the Off-Peak fare was abolished because it prevented LNER from charging high prices for shoulder peak trains. That didn't suit them and so now they have full control over the price of all evening peak trains, being constrained only by the stupidly expensive Anytime Single.
 

Richardr

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If we just had single tickets what would happen to season tickets - weekly, monthly, and annual?

Would the logic of such a system abolish them?
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm not as sure as you are. That being said, I do get slightly paranoid about matters of ticketing simply due to my distrust of electronic ticketing, so I presume you're right. I hope you're right.
As an aside: what would the situation be with Delay Repay compared to what it is now?

I can't see it changing at all, though obviously the "100% of return for 2+ hours" one would quietly disappear, I'm not bothered by that as I have very, very rarely had such a claim.
 

Watershed

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If we just had single tickets what would happen to season tickets - weekly, monthly, and annual?

Would the logic of such a system abolish them?
There is no reason to abolish season tickets just because returns go. They have always existed in somewhat of a parallel universe to single/return tickets, in terms of sales, pricing and fulfilment. The only real connection (and it's a very weak one) is that a weekly season ticket can't feasibly cost less than 1 return journey, or more than 5.

There will always be some form of discount for frequent travellers; the cost of commuting would otherwise skyrocket for many people.
 

Bletchleyite

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If we just had single tickets what would happen to season tickets - weekly, monthly, and annual?

Would the logic of such a system abolish them?

I don't believe the proposal includes abolition of or in any way changing season tickets.

No, the Off-Peak fare was abolished because it prevented LNER from charging high prices for shoulder peak trains. That didn't suit them and so now they have full control over the price of all evening peak trains, being constrained only by the stupidly expensive Anytime Single.

Quite possibly. But quite a few of the use cases for the old Off Peak (Business Saver, which doesn't exist on the WCML and never did, and nobody is screaming for it to be created) could be done at a similar price by combining a Super Off Peak Single in one direction with an Anytime Single in the other. Not all cases, to be fair, but there will be people for whom that option made things cheaper, not more expensive.
 

Cdd89

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These things may well be be perceived as unfair by some, but they are generally effective at maximising revenue. There's a reason why the price of long haul flights can be higher for a one-way journey than a return, and why a same or next day return can cost more than leaving a Saturday night before returning - airlines invented revenue optimisation and are masters at it.
Airlines have moved to one-way tickets being priced at near half that of returns, where competition from low cost carriers has forced this. And not before time.

If the implication is that it is OK for the railway to try to segment purchasers in this way because it has a government controlled monopoly, then I (personally) find that very unfair.
 

Bletchleyite

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Airlines have moved to one-way tickets being priced at near half that of returns, where competition from low cost carriers has forced this. And not before time.

Most long haul ones still haven't. But short haul air is pretty much all that way now, and so much better it is that way too.
 

Cdd89

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Most long haul ones still haven't.
Long haul is very much in transition. BA copied it on routes where Norwegian competed, then rolled it back again when Norwegian collapsed. But I would bet a considerable sum of money that in 10 years it will be absolutely standard.
 

Benjwri

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I can't see it changing at all, though obviously the "100% of return for 2+ hours" one would quietly disappear, I'm not bothered by that as I have very, very rarely had such a claim.
That heavily depends on the TOC though, I'm sure a certain group that runs (or chooses not to as it may be) a number of South Western franchises will be rubbing their hands at that loss, I know I've had at least 3 claims in the past year or so that have paid for my entire return with them.
 

Bletchleyite

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That heavily depends on the TOC though, I'm sure a certain group that runs (or chooses not to as it may be) a number of South Western franchises will be rubbing their hands at that loss, I know I've had at least 3 claims in the past year or so that have paid for my entire return with them.

I'd rather the issues that are within the railway's control that cause 2 hour delays were fixed, myself. Most really long delays like that are caused by things outwith the railway's control anyway, e.g. suicides or extremely severe weather, and I'm happy to let that go because they ruin the driver's day far more than mine, and are as much a nightmare for TOC control as for my journey.

You could make it something like 120% or a free journey in addition to a refund, I suppose, but I doubt they will.
 

Benjwri

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I'd rather the issues that are within the railway's control that cause 2 hour delays were fixed, myself. Most really long delays like that are caused by things outwith the railway's control anyway, e.g. suicides or extremely severe weather, and I'm happy to let that go because they ruin the driver's day far more than mine, and are as much a nightmare for TOC control as for my journey.

You could make it something like 120% or a free journey in addition to a refund, I suppose, but I doubt they will.
Almost all my issues have either been because Avanti love to cancel hours worth of services at once, or GWR have a tendency to skip Didcot whenever something fails between Reading and London (Although it seems with the May timetable they've just decided skipping Didcot is the new norm, which is another way to solve the problem). Especially the issues around London are something that isn't going away, and all my repay requests have been within GWRs control.

As mentioned above as well, with service frequency dropping thanks to the DfT cuts longer delays are only going to become more frequent.
 

cactustwirly

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I'd rather the issues that are within the railway's control that cause 2 hour delays were fixed, myself. Most really long delays like that are caused by things outwith the railway's control anyway, e.g. suicides or extremely severe weather, and I'm happy to let that go because they ruin the driver's day far more than mine, and are as much a nightmare for TOC control as for my journey.

You could make it something like 120% or a free journey in addition to a refund, I suppose, but I doubt they will.
In my experience it's because of a signal failure, which is within the railways control...

How will it work when buying tickets from a TVM.
Atm it's a few presses for a return.
Would I need to buy each single separately? Wasting my time and making it more complicated
 

Bletchleyite

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How will it work when buying tickets from a TVM.
Atm it's a few presses for a return.
Would I need to buy each single separately? Wasting my time and making it more complicated

There are lots of obvious ways to design the software to quickly and intuitively enable the purchase of two singles to return on the same day or another specified day. If not sure when you're returning or whether it'd be peak or off peak, you'd probably just buy when you got to the station for your return journey so you'd know which day it was. With increasing numbers of tickets sold on mobile phones, just buying on the way to the station in both directions isn't a major faff, I do this whenever I go to London now because with a Network Railcard two singles are cheaper than an Anytime Day Return, and our office is walking distance from Euston so I don't use the Tube or a bus.

For Advances it'd be a planner interface as now.
 

cactustwirly

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There are lots of obvious ways to design the software to quickly and intuitively enable the purchase of two singles to return on the same day or another specified day. If not sure when you're returning or whether it'd be peak or off peak, you'd probably just buy when you got to the station for your return journey so you'd know which day it was. With increasing numbers of tickets sold on mobile phones, just buying on the way to the station in both directions isn't a major faff, I do this whenever I go to London now because with a Network Railcard two singles are cheaper than an Anytime Day Return, and our office is walking distance from Euston so I don't use the Tube or a bus.

For Advances it'd be a planner interface as now.

Oh no please don't install the crappy planner interface.
The best ones are the ticket machines in the South East, that GTR, GWR, Southeastern and SWR use. No planner and really quick and intuitive
 

Bletchleyite

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Oh no please don't install the crappy planner interface.

The planner interfaces are necessary for selling Advances. I do agree a non-planner interface is needed too, offering single, day return or period return options, with the latter offering a choice of return date, and them issuing two singles as necessary.

The best ones are the ticket machines in the South East, that GTR, GWR, Southeastern and SWR use. No planner and really quick and intuitive

Scheidt & Bachmann? They're decent but they did confuse me the first time I used one.
 

WelshBluebird

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No, you probably wouldn't be able to do that combination journey on just one ticket. But you probably wouldn't lose out much.
I mean that is just one example. I agree not many people take advantage of the flexibility currently on offer but as part of this there will be multiple scenarios where existing passenger flexibility is going to be removed, and passengers will have to pay more if they want to do something they were able to previously.
I'd rather the issues that are within the railway's control that cause 2 hour delays were fixed, myself. Most really long delays like that are caused by things outwith the railway's control anyway, e.g. suicides or extremely severe weather, and I'm happy to let that go because they ruin the driver's day far more than mine, and are as much a nightmare for TOC control as for my journey.

You could make it something like 120% or a free journey in addition to a refund, I suppose, but I doubt they will.
Of course, it isn't always that clear cut. I had a lovely 2 hour delay last summer where the cause of the delay wasn't in the railways control, but I'd argue the reaction to that delay absolutely was. Had they reacted in a different way my delay would have been less than it was, so the length of the delay absolutely was in the railways control. The cynic in me would think that if the financial impact of delay repay is reduced, then ToCs will be even less likely to bother trying to keep delays to the minimum.
 

Bletchleyite

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With the 'open return' option removed.

Yes, true. if you want an open return you'd just buy it when you knew when you were travelling.

When the main method of sale was booking offices, it made sense to discourage people from doing this, avoiding the cost of staffing up for two transactions. Now the main method of sale is your phone, or at a push a TVM, it just doesn't matter any more.

Of course, it isn't always that clear cut. I had a lovely 2 hour delay last summer where the cause of the delay wasn't in the railways control, but I'd argue the reaction to that delay absolutely was. Had they reacted in a different way my delay would have been less than it was, so the length of the delay absolutely was in the railways control. The cynic in me would think that if the financial impact of delay repay is reduced, then ToCs will be even less likely to bother trying to keep delays to the minimum.

Delay Repay is a pittance when compared to the other costs of delays. It is nice to be able to slap a TOC for a fine, effectively, but it isn't a big hit, particularly given how many people just don't bother claiming.
 
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