E-Tickets being inaccessible/difficult to use for the elderly.

[william.martin]

Well then, here's the story;

Today I visited an elderly member of my family who regularly uses her senior travel pass for the west midlands wich grants her free acces to busses, trains and trams in the west midlands region. However, we were discussing a trip involving buying a standard ticket to travel outside of the west midlands zone when we began to talk about what if she didn't have access to facilities to buy a physical ticket (E.G broken ticket machine or ticket office closure.)
This would mean buying an online ticket which is a problem for both the elderly member of my family I met today and potentially a problem to other elderly people (in fact not just elderly people, anybody who does not have acces to a mobile device.)

Now, almost all people over 70 that I know would not know how to purchase an online ticket or feel confident handing over bank details to their online device wich would mean in the event of an issue with facilities to buy a physical ticket, not traveling.

So therefore surely until today's technologically advanced people are elderly, E- tickets will remain a difficulty for those who either don't have access to a mobile device while onboard a train, do not trust the device with there bank details or simply are not aware of how to purchase a ticket.

I would like to know the opinions of others on this matter,

Kind regards William.martin.

 

[yorkie]

Well then, here's the story;

Today I visited an elderly member of my family who regularly uses her senior travel pass for the west midlands wich grants her free acces to busses, trains and trams in the west midlands region. However, we were discussing a trip involving buying a standard ticket to travel outside of the west midlands zone when we began to talk about what if she didn't have access to facilities to buy a physical ticket (E.G broken ticket machine or ticket office closure.)
This would mean buying an online ticket which is a problem for both the elderly member of my family I met today and potentially a problem to other elderly people (in fact not just elderly people, anybody who does not have acces to a mobile device.)

Now, almost all people over 70 that I know would not know how to purchase an online ticket or feel confident handing over bank details to their online device wich would mean in the event of an issue with facilities to buy a physical ticket, not traveling.

So therefore surely until today's technologically advanced people are elderly, E- tickets will remain a difficulty for those who either don't have access to a mobile device while onboard a train, do not trust the device with there bank details or simply are not aware of how to purchase a ticket.

I would like to know the opinions of others on this matter,

Kind regards William.martin.

There is no requirement to purchase a ticket online.

There is also no requirement to hold a mobile device while travelling.

Also, anyone who does choose to purchase online and show it on a mobile device is not compelled to input any bank details to their device.

They could purchase using a computer/laptop and print the ticket. Or they could simply board the train without pre-purchasing a ticket and pay at the next opportunity (which may be on board the train, or at the destination or - where applicable/relevant - at an interchange station, if time permits).

I recently used LNER (this weekend) and Northern (Thursday last week); with very few exceptions almost all passengers showed e-tickets. I asked the Northern Guard if it was a novelty checking a paper ticket these days (I saw one person show one); he said "very much so, yes!"

 

[Adam Williams]

Now, almost all people over 70 that I know would not know how to purchase an online ticket or feel confident handing over bank details to their online device which would mean in the event of an issue with facilities to buy a physical ticket, not travelling.

Really, we should be trying to improve digital literacy among the elderly. I can tell you that online retailers deal with quite a few more senior railcard holders than you might expect - and a lot of these bookings are fulfilled via E-Ticket!

I'm sure many elderly folks don't appreciate being "written off" as unable to adapt, and just require a bit more support and encouragement with getting to grips with these sort of technical advances.

My own grandparents (>70, >80 years old) have been able to pick up online shopping, sending & receiving WhatsApp messages etc.

 

[Llanigraham]

They could purchase using a computer/laptop and print the ticket. Or they could simply board the train without pre-purchasing a ticket and pay at the next opportunity (which may be on board the train, or at the destination or - where applicable/relevant - at an interchange station, if time permits).

Many of those that don't have mobile phones also probably won't have a computer either.

 

[Hadders]

Well then, here's the story;

Today I visited an elderly member of my family who regularly uses her senior travel pass for the west midlands wich grants her free acces to busses, trains and trams in the west midlands region. However, we were discussing a trip involving buying a standard ticket to travel outside of the west midlands zone when we began to talk about what if she didn't have access to facilities to buy a physical ticket (E.G broken ticket machine or ticket office closure.)
This would mean buying an online ticket which is a problem for both the elderly member of my family I met today and potentially a problem to other elderly people (in fact not just elderly people, anybody who does not have acces to a mobile device.)

Now, almost all people over 70 that I know would not know how to purchase an online ticket or feel confident handing over bank details to their online device wich would mean in the event of an issue with facilities to buy a physical ticket, not traveling.

So therefore surely until today's technologically advanced people are elderly, E- tickets will remain a difficulty for those who either don't have access to a mobile device while onboard a train, do not trust the device with there bank details or simply are not aware of how to purchase a ticket.

I would like to know the opinions of others on this matter,

Kind regards William.martin.

Not this again!

Most people purchase tickets on a mobile device and display the barcode on their phone, or print it out at home but it's important to point out (once again) that it will not be a requirement to possess a mobile phone or computer to travel by train. Tickets will be available to purchase from stations, or ticket machines but they will be barcodes printed on paper, rather than credit card sized cardboard tickets.

 

[william.martin]

There is also no requirement to hold a mobile device while travelling.

Are you pulling my leg or do you think I'm thick?
I meant to be in possession of one if
you have bought an E -ticket.

They could purchase using a computer/laptop and print the ticket.

Is that even allowed, some elderly people don't own a printer (or even a computer in some cases.)

Or they could simply board the train without pre-purchasing a ticket and pay at the next opportunity (which may be on board the train, or at the destination or - where applicable/relevant - at an interchange station, if time permits).

Yes, however certainly where I originate from (in the middle of nowhere) this is not an option.

There is no requirement to purchase a ticket online

Again, do you think I'm thick?
Of course you don't have to however I have experienced closed ticket offices and broken ticket machines too many times.

 

[Adam Williams]

Is that even allowed

Yes, entirely fine to print out the E-Ticket PDF and display it like that. Generally, as long as the barcode is scannable you can display it on a phone, piece of paper, laptop screen, Kindle, tablet...

Of course you don't have to however I have experienced closed ticket offices and broken ticket machines too many times.

You're entitled to board and pay for the ticket at the first opportunity under these circumstances. This might even be your destination! No need to use a phone and buy online.

This thread seems to be built upon some misconceptions of how ticketing works and what passengers are actually required/permitted to do.

 

[william.martin]

Really, we should be trying to improve digital literacy among the elderly. I can tell you that online retailers deal with quite a few more senior railcard holders than you might expect - and a lot of these bookings are fulfilled via E-Ticket!

I'm sure many elderly folks don't appreciate being "written off" as unable to adapt, and just require a bit more support and encouragement with getting to grips with these sort of technical advances.

My own grandparents (>70, >80 years old) have been able to pick up online shopping, sending & receiving WhatsApp messages etc.

I think it's great that some elderly people have picked up the concept of online shopping etc however particularly my grandparents can't remember what I have taught them for more than a week and refuse to make purchases online purely because of not trusting devices with money.

 

[Hadders]

I think it's great that some elderly people have picked up the concept of online shopping etc however particularly my grandparents can't remember what I have taught them for more than a week and refuse to make purchases online purely because of not trusting devices with money.

There is no requirement to use a computer or mobile phone to travel by train.

 

[william.martin]

This thread seems to be built upon some misconceptions of how ticketing works and what passengers are actually required/permitted to do.

Well, if that's the case I am more than happy to accept any information on rules of ticketing, if at no point in your journey there is an opportunity to buy a physical ticket (E.G you are traveling a short hop between two rural stations and you do not pass through anywhere that can sell you a ticket and DOO is in place) however it is physically possible to buy an E -ticket can you still get done for fare dodging?

 

[Hadders]

Well, if that's the case I am more than happy to accept any information on rules of ticketing, if at no point in your journey there is an opportunity to buy a physical ticket (E.G you are traveling a short hop between two rural stations and you do not pass through anywhere that can sell you a ticket and DOO is in place) however it is physically possible to buy an E -ticket can you still get done for fare dodging?

Thre National Rail Conditions of Travel states:

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National%20Rail%20Conditions%20of%20Travel.pdf

6,1 You must hold a valid Ticket or authority to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:
6.1.1 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or a self-service Ticket machine is not in working order, or will not accept your only available method of payment (card or cash); and where notices indicate that Penalty Fares may apply from that station, you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit to Travel issuing machine at the station where you start your journey – see Condition 10 for more information about Penalty Fares; or
6.1.2 The station is staffed, and you are specifically permitted to board a train service by an authorised member of staff, or you have received a written notice or heard an audible announcement to this effect; or 6.1.3 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, because
6.1.3.1 the Ticket office is closed; or
6.1.3.2 a self-service Ticket machine is not in working order, or will not accept your preferred method of payment (card or cash); or
6.1.3.3 You have a disability and Ticket purchasing arrangements at the station you are departing from are not accessible to you.
In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed.

No-where does it say that you must use a mobile phone or computer to purchase a ticket.

For the third time, therre is no requirement to use a mobile phone or computer to travel by train.

 

[william.martin]

For the third time, therre is no requirement to use a mobile phone or computer to travel by train.

Also for the 3rd time, I know!

 

[Adam Williams]

if at no point in your journey there is an opportunity to buy a physical ticket (E.G you are traveling a short hop between two rural stations and you do not pass through anywhere that can sell you a ticket and DOO is in place) however it is physically possible to buy an E -ticket can you still get done for fare dodging?

No.

 

[Watershed]

Are you pulling my leg or do you think I'm thick?
I meant to be in possession of one if
you have bought an E -ticket.

You do need to have some kind of digital device in order to use an e-ticket - at a very minimum, a laptop, or a computer of some sort plus a printer, or a mobile device/tablet. But when buying your ticket online, there is no absolute requirement to obtain your ticket by means of an e-ticket. Most retailers still offer the alternative of a paper ticket collected at the station.

Is that even allowed, some elderly people don't own a printer (or even a computer in some cases.)

See above. I agree that it's problematic that the railway doesn't provide any facilities to print a copy of an e-ticket; most foreign railways allow you to print a copy of your ticket by entering its code at a machine, the same as how airlines let you print a copy of your boarding pass at the airport.

It's only the like of Ryanair and easyJet that charge for this; the railway generally charge premium prices and so shouldn't try and ape budget airlines in this respect.

Yes, however certainly where I originate from (in the middle of nowhere) this is not an option.

If there are no working ticketing facilities at your origin station, there is no requirement to buy a ticket online or via an app. You can board the train and buy the ticket at the next available opportunity.

 

[yorkie]

Many of those that don't have mobile phones also probably won't have a computer either.

What proportion of people is that? Such people can purchase on board in the scenario described, so don't need to purchase online anyway.

Are you pulling my leg or do you think I'm thick?
I meant to be in possession of one if
you have bought an E -ticket.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here? You said "this would mean buying an online ticket" and I pointed out that people have the choice but are not compelled to do so. I am not judging anyone's intelligence; just stating the facts.

Is that even allowed, some elderly people don't own a printer (or even a computer in some cases.)

It is merely an option.

Yes, however certainly where I originate from (in the middle of nowhere) this is not an option.

It certainly is; there is no requirement to purchase online. If there are no ticket issuing facilities at the origin, you may board the train and purchase at the first opportunity. If you are saying that the origin and destination are unstaffed and no-one checks on the train, then the journey simply goes uncharged.

Again, do you think I'm thick?

I am engaging constructively; if you disagree with something I've said, please explain why exactly.

Of course you don't have to however I have experienced closed ticket offices and broken ticket machines too many times.

Then the passenger can choose out of various options I've stated!

If the passenger does not have any device capable of buying tickets or simply does not want to buy a ticket online, they don't have to do so and can simply board the train without a ticket.

Well, if that's the case I am more than happy to accept any information on rules of ticketing, if at no point in your journey there is an opportunity to buy a physical ticket (E.G you are traveling a short hop between two rural stations and you do not pass through anywhere that can sell you a ticket and DOO is in place) however it is physically possible to buy an E -ticket can you still get done for fare dodging?

If there is no opportunity to pay, then that's that! You can't get 'done' for anything.

The method of operation of the train is irrelevant; ticket checks occur very frequently on many trains operated exclusively by the Driver but equally there are trains with traditional Guards where either the Guard is non-commercial or simply does not come round the train (very frequent on many of the trains I get, especially those operated by TPE).

 

[william.martin]

No.

Finally got a simple answer

If there are no working ticketing facilities at your origin station, there is no requirement to buy a ticket online or via an app. You can board the train and buy the ticket at the next available opportunity.

Ah, that makes sense now


Mods, if possible please work you magic and shut this thread!

 

[Watershed]

Finally got a simple answer

Ah, that makes sense now


Mods, if possible please work you magic and shut this thread!

No problem. To be fair, the TOCs don't help with these kinds of misunderstandings, as some publish complete misinformation on the topic.

 

[Adam Williams]

Finally got a simple answer

I thought you might prefer a straightforward answer!

 

[william.martin]

I thought you might prefer a straightforward answer!

If only all things could be like that for my... simple mind.

 

[Skiddaw]

For what it is worth, most of the people I know who are 70+ would have no difficulty whatsoever in purchasing a ticket via their respective mobiles/laptops. It's a bit of a generalisation to assume that as you hove out of your 60's you instantly turn into Clive Dunn doing 'Grandad'...

 

[Haywain]

You do need to have some kind of digital device in order to use an e-ticket - at a very minimum, a laptop, or a computer of some sort plus a printer, or a mobile device/tablet.

That's not really true though. You need none of these things to use an eTicket, which could be printed out by a friend/colleague/relation. And if you don't have any of these things it's unlikely that an eTicket would be purchased.

 

[Watershed]

That's not really true though. You need none of these things to use an eTicket, which could be printed out by a friend/colleague/relation. And if you don't have any of these things it's unlikely that an eTicket would be purchased.

I think it goes without saying that someone else can buy an e-ticket for you and print it out. The number of people who would rather do this than to buy their ticket at the ticket machine or ticket office, or use their own device or printer to use an e-ticket, has got to be very small indeed.

 

[jfollows]

I think it goes without saying that someone else can buy an e-ticket for you and print it out. The number of people who would rather do this than to buy their ticket at the ticket machine or ticket office, or use their own device or printer to use an e-ticket, has got to be very small indeed.

Well, you said it anyway, and in fact I've just done exactly this - my partner has to go to London for a morning appointment on Thursday and although he loves trains he's not very clued up on timetables etc. So I simply bought him advance tickets there and back (first class cheaper than standard on the way out), then printed the e-ticket PDFs on the front and back of a single piece of paper and gave it to him. Same would apply to the hypothetical "elderly" relative naturally.
He's off to the US Embassy to renew his US passport, I didn't see any point in going with him!

 

[Haywain]

I think it goes without saying that someone else can buy an e-ticket for you and print it out.

I'm not sure that it goes without saying for the OP!

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

It's also possible to buy some limited National Rail e-tickets from PayZone local shops with cash etc.

Payzone | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

Could potentially mitigate some of the ticket office closures, but even then, I doubt there's much demand.

 

[fandroid]

Simple. Use that West Midlands pass to go to a station that has a decent ticket office and buy the paper ticket there. Either do that ahead of time, specifying the date of travel, or do it on the day. Potential problems can be avoided with a small amount of planning.

I'm not sure what the problem is.

 

[scrapy]

Whilst there's no requirement to have a mobile device or use a bank card when travelling there is often the need to buy online to get the cheapest tickets. For example Northerns recent sale tickets. Those fares were not available to those who wanted to purchase on board with cash, or pay cash at a ticket office in advance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whilst there's no requirement to have a mobile device or use a bank card when travelling there is often the need to buy online to get the cheapest tickets. For example Northerns recent sale tickets. Those fares were not available to those who wanted to purchase on board with cash, or pay cash at a ticket office in advance.

It's not unreasonable that very deep-discount specials should only be on sale via fulfilment methods that save the TOC money. Tried buying a Ryanair flight for cash lately?

I'm less sold on Northern seemingly taking this policy for all Advances, but to be honest Northern's Advances aren't a great idea anyway.

 

[Watershed]

It's not unreasonable that very deep-discount specials should only be on sale via fulfilment methods that save the TOC money. Tried buying a Ryanair flight for cash lately?

I'm less sold on Northern seemingly taking this policy for all Advances, but to be honest Northern's Advances aren't a great idea anyway.

Ryanair isn't run by an arm of the government though, is it? Apples and oranges...

 

[AndrewE]

I think it goes without saying that someone else can buy an e-ticket for you and print it out. The number of people who would rather do this than to buy their ticket at the ticket machine or ticket office, or use their own device or printer to use an e-ticket, has got to be very small indeed.

How does this fit with the (old?) rule that tickets are not transferable? That used to be heavily emphasised, and I took it to mean that you couldn't buy a ticket and give or sell it to someone/anyone else.