RMT rejects latest offer from both Network Rail and RDG (TOCs)

[43066]

Says it all that they didn't want to put it out to a general vote for a true balance. Afterall what someone might say in the heated bullpit of a branch meeting might not be what they actually think. They go with the flow in public to avoid being bullied.

Know a lot of RMT members, do you? A laughable take that is a million miles from the reality I see on a daily basis.

That's clearly the employers' tactic, keep putting forward the same rubbish offer until the employees get ground down and run out of steam. A negotiating tactic which can only be used where the taxpayer is being forced into bankrolling the losses, which the government freely admits already exceeds the cost of actually settling.

I find it fascinating how people are blaming the unions when it is abundantly clear that the employers are simply not acting in good faith and have no intention of doing so because someone else is footing the bill. And our government, a Margaret Thatcher pub tribute act, are happy to spaff away taxpayer money to make an ideological point.

The RMT should change their name to Serco or Michelle Mone, they'd get everything they want then!

Well put. Of course if the RMT did put it to the vote they’d be pilloried on here if they didn’t recommend acceptance. They were even pilloried for calling strikes off a few weeks ago!

It’s indeed notable how the (faux) concern expressed over costs of the railway to the public purse doesn’t seem to extend to the (equally public) funds being used to bankroll this dispute by the government.

Based on the way I’ve heard this offer being discussed I’m not remotely surprised it has been rejected. I’ll leave it there because these threads always go the same predictable way…

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I'm not entirely convinced by the narrative that everyone has deserted the railway and there's no money. There's a lot of disingenuity going on, whether it's the government releasing travel figures from six months ago and saying they reflect today's situation, or whether it's the government claiming that their decision to keep the network running during Covid was "keeping people in jobs".

Im not sure Harper has banged the covid drum quite like Shapps did

Commuter routes were, even before Covid, some of the most heavily subsidised services due to annual season tickets.

In the case of teh NSE operators they weren't subsidised the other regional operations were although ultimately with teh NR grant costing billions ultimately all former franchises never covered the true costs.

I don't think anything should be a blank cheque, but it's interesting how staff costs are identified as the issue and not, say, the IEP and Thameslink fleet procurement projects that were slated by the National Audit Office.

Indeed but in some respects the DfT went down that route as there were too many naysayers saying the ROSCOS were ripping off the industry so the DfT thought they could do better but fortunately they realised they couldn't.

 

[Tetchytyke]

that they expect the industry to be doing its bit to look at itself and see where efficiencies can be made

Except they don't. The biggest costs rises are from the price-gouging engineering and construction firms, and nothing is being done to address that issue. CapEx isn't going as far as it should, and routine maintenance costs vastly more than it should. HS2 is the poster boy for price-gouging construction, but a basic station like Reston costing £20M is even worse.

I'd agree that the train costs won't change, especially as we're tied into the bad value Thameslink and IET contracts for 25 years. But as the BR-era trains leave, at least we now have lease-and-maintain rather than the old money for old rope model.

Anyway, we digress.

Negotiations need both parties to act in good faith, and meet in the middle. After all, a compromise is nobody getting exactly what they want. Sadly I don't see much of this from the employers' side, as they're not footing the tab. As for our government, well, when they're admitting that fighting is costing them more than settling, that says all you need to know.

My experience is that, for all the Socialist Worker claptrap, the RMT are sensible and pragmatic negotiators. But you can't negotiate with a government who want their Scargill moment.

 

[Carntyne]

Seems bizarre to ask for the deal to be tweaked and then throw it in the bin as totally unacceptable.

Are RMT negotiators and NEC not talking?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Except they don't. The biggest costs rises are from the price-gouging engineering and construction firms, and nothing is being done to address that issue. CapEx isn't going as far as it should, and routine maintenance costs vastly more than it should. HS2 is the poster boy for price-gouging construction, but a basic station like Reston costing £20M is even worse.

As a former BR project engineer absolutely makes my blood boil and wholeheartedly agree with you 110%. I spent decades railing against when i was in NR but despite all the talk there was never much effort made to get on top of costs and enforcing contracts was laughable always told we can't afford for them to pull out the industry so just pay them.

 

[12LDA28C]

I see the Torygraph is getting involved today by peddling more nonsense about the RMT 'seeking to bring down Capitalism'. Do its readers really believe this tripe?

 

[175001]

I see the Torygraph is getting involved today by peddling more nonsense about the RMT 'seeking to bring down Capitalism'. Do its readers really believe this tripe?

Unfortunately they do

 

[Peregrine 4903]

What exactly is the plan for the RMT? If this the best deal NR can afford, then is it strike until a change of government? And then what if there is no change in stance?

 

[Tw99]

I see the Torygraph is getting involved today by peddling more nonsense about the RMT 'seeking to bring down Capitalism'. Do its readers really believe this tripe?

Well, it is a key part of the RMT's constitution, so it shouldn't be a surprise if political opponents point that out.

 

[Thirteen]

Well, it is a key part of the RMT's constitution, so it shouldn't be a surprise if political opponents point that out.

The RMT can't bring down capitalism on their own however much they try, they would need other workers to join them and that frankly isn't realistic. Communism doesn't work either.

 

[matthewjohnson]

*Sigh*

I'll put off my plans to move out of Leeds to somewhere a bit more pleasant but commutable for a while longer then

 

[the sniper]

I see the Torygraph is getting involved today by peddling more nonsense about the RMT 'seeking to bring down Capitalism'. Do its readers really believe this tripe?

People believe it here even with more information available to them...

 

[Russel]

So, how long until the Govt force through all the reforms they want?

Then what do the RMT plan to do?

 

[KM1991]

What exactly is the plan for the RMT? If this the best deal NR can afford, then is it strike until a change of government? And then what if there is no change in stance?

The thresholds for the re ballot will not be met.

 

[Fred26]

So, how long until the Govt force through all the reforms they want?

Then what do the RMT plan to do?

If they had any intention of doing that they could have done it months ago.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

That’s the problem, some TOC’s would be giving up a lot for little in return and others have already sold it for bigger benefits in the past. I think the pay offer would have been ok but not all the conditions attached.

This is exactly the problem. And let's not even think about different roles such as Ticket Offices or Catering - lets just look at Traincrew in isolation.

Speaking as traincrew it's not an awful offer,

Varies from TOC to TOC, most of what they wanted in this offer we gave up for a reduction of hours last year.

For my grade its literally a no strings pay offer!

@Monty and @RPI think it's not bad - either because they have already sold those conditions in the past in exchange for something, or they never had them in the first place.

And if I was in their shoes I would probably think the same.

But I'm not. At my TOC we are comparatively low paid for our grade, but we have quite good ts and cs. And speaking as traincrew I do think it is absolutely awful. If I were to accept this offer then I would literally be giving up everything for very little in return, yet colleagues in the same grade at other TOCS will get the same pay rise but give up nothing or very little as they sold those conditions and got something (more money, less hours) in exchange in the past. And at the end of the day we will be both be on nearly identical Ts and Cs, but they will get paid a lot more than me for doing the same job.

You cannot Harmonise Ts & Cs and not Harmonise Pay at the same time. Aside from the fact that it is simply unfair on those who have to give up so much to get so little in return whilst others get the same pay rise but give up virtually nothing, it doesn't actually solve all the disparities and fragmentation in the industry - if anything it makes things worse. You can understand why everyone doing the same job may get different rates of pay if they have different ts and cs, but if everyone doing the same job has the same ts and cs, how can you justify them getting different rates of pay (aside from enhancements to reflect where things are materially different, such as local train work v Intercity work where you are managing catering staff too, for example).

And that is why it will be almost impossible to settle this dispute as long as the Government are trying to impose Productivity Changes in line with a pay rise.

And that's before you get in to the moral arguments of staff at TOCS which have no ticket offices voting on things which affect Ticket Office staff, or staff at fully DOO TOCS voting on things which affect on train Conductors, for example.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

The thresholds for the re ballot will not be met.

I think you’ll find they will be. Of that I’m 100% certain.

I’m personally disappointed that this didn’t go to a vote…. Only because now the Government and the media will have a field day blaming everything on the unions refusing to give us a voice. If we had the voice in a referendum, we could have told them to b*gger off and then they can’t wave the “the workers didn’t get a say” stick at us.

Interesting that MP’s have just been awarded a pay rise with no conditions attached

If this was to run until the next election, it wouldn’t go on until a change of government - you can bet your life they’d pull out all the stops and offer a much better package as a “vote winner”….

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I think you’ll find they will be. Of that I’m 100% certain.

I’m personally disappointed that this didn’t go to a vote…. Only because now the Government and the media will have a field day blaming everything on the unions refusing to give us a voice. If we had the voice in a referendum, we could have told them to b*gger off and then they can’t wave the “the workers didn’t get a say” stick at us.

Interesting that MP’s have just been awarded a pay rise with no conditions attached

If this was to run until the next election, it wouldn’t go on until a change of government - you can bet your life they’d pull out all the stops and offer a much better package as a “vote winner”….

I'm not convinced NR side it will be.

 

[STINT47]

Interesting that MP’s have just been awarded a pay rise with no conditions attached

The MPs rise is 2.9%. If the unions were prepared to accept the same percentage then they might also be offered a no conditions attached deal. But would staff be prepared to accept this?

 

[the sniper]

Can people please read @Solent&Wessex 's post above carefully and try to understand it, as it explains rather well a fundamental flaw of the industry/RDG/state's current position.

 

[gazzaa2]

ASLEF have already said to buckle down for the dispute and strikes to go on for years if necessary. RMT could well be the same at this rate.

Everything seems like a write off until the government are voted out at some point next year.

 

[SJN]

This is exactly the problem. And let's not even think about different roles such as Ticket Offices or Catering - lets just look at Traincrew in isolation.








@Monty and @RPI think it's not bad - either because they have already sold those conditions in the past in exchange for something, or they never had them in the first place.

And if I was in their shoes I would probably think the same.

But I'm not. At my TOC we are comparatively low paid for our grade, but we have quite good ts and cs. And speaking as traincrew I do think it is absolutely awful. If I were to accept this offer then I would literally be giving up everything for very little in return, yet colleagues in the same grade at other TOCS will get the same pay rise but give up nothing or very little as they sold those conditions and got something (more money, less hours) in exchange in the past. And at the end of the day we will be both be on nearly identical Ts and Cs, but they will get paid a lot more than me for doing the same job.

You cannot Harmonise Ts & Cs and not Harmonise Pay at the same time. Aside from the fact that it is simply unfair on those who have to give up so much to get so little in return whilst others get the same pay rise but give up virtually nothing, it doesn't actually solve all the disparities and fragmentation in the industry - if anything it makes things worse. You can understand why everyone doing the same job may get different rates of pay if they have different ts and cs, but if everyone doing the same job has the same ts and cs, how can you justify them getting different rates of pay (aside from enhancements to reflect where things are materially different, such as local train work v Intercity work where you are managing catering staff too, for example).

And that is why it will be almost impossible to settle this dispute as long as the Government are trying to impose Productivity Changes in line with a pay rise.

And that's before you get in to the moral arguments of staff at TOCS which have no ticket offices voting on things which affect Ticket Office staff, or staff at fully DOO TOCS voting on things which affect on train Conductors, for example.

Totally agree with everything you have said.

 

[Thirteen]

The MPs rise is 2.9%. If the unions were prepared to accept the same percentage then they might also be offered a no conditions attached deal. But would staff be prepared to accept this?

MP salaries are fairly high though.

ASLEF have already said to buckle down for strikes to go on for years if necessary. RMT could well be the same at this rate.

I think that is slightly hyperbolic personally. I would imagine action short of strike for years is more likely as it's the same impact but you don't lose money

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The MPs rise is 2.9%. If the unions were prepared to accept the same percentage then they might also be offered a no conditions attached deal. But would staff be prepared to accept this?

If there was a no strings pay rise of say 3% or £xxxx whichever is greater, so that the lower paid staff got a better rise, then it might well do so.

Or, do it in increments:

Keep the Changes to Ts & Cs as they were proposed and say:

Everyone gets 2.9% no strings.
Everyone will end up on the new ts an cs, but those TOCS who have to give up more will get additional fixed amount or % increases depending on how much you actually give up to reach the agreed end point, thus compensating those who give up more.

 

[gazr]

Interesting that MP’s have just been awarded a pay rise with no conditions attached

If this was to run until the next election, it wouldn’t go on until a change of government - you can bet your life they’d pull out all the stops and offer a much better package as a “vote winner”….

The old MP's pay rise stick again. We all know (or should by now) that this is not set by the MPs themselves, but by committee and ALL MPs (both sides of the aisle) get the rise. Quite a few MPs have already stated they will donate the rise to various charities. Absolute whataboutary.

 

[bazzarati]

Your definition of bullying is rather different to mine. AIUI The revised offer was put to RMT at their request, and on the understanding from them, that it needed to be changed slightly so that it could be put to referendum again.

That's just not true and the evidence for it is already in the public domain. Mick Lynch actually wrote to the members with a letter he sent to NR stating that the previous offer had been rejected by members and that the company could not simply re-offer the same proposals again and expect a vote on it. They would have to offer something new.

It's pretty obvious that NR thinks it holds the whip hand in this and simply disregarded that. The DFT and NR obviously thought they could humiliate the RMT into accepting an offer that they had recommended its members to reject. The people I feel sorry for are the passengers who have been used as pawns in this game by the government for nearly 12 months now, and for most of that time the government has shown no interest at all in averting any disruption. The RMT to its credit has cancelled several strikes to push for talks, but the other side is actually refusing to budge.

 

[Smidster]

Well what a surprise...not.

Pathetic to not even put it to a vote... especially as it has been over 2 weeks since this was received.

The statement is also very concerning - Absolutely no sign of any ability or willingness to compromise.

I just wish I earned enough to be able to lose as much pay as these folks seem to.

 

[Tetchytyke]

this is not set by the MPs themselves, but by committee

And remind me who appoints the "independent" committee?

 

[KM1991]

The MPs rise is 2.9%. If the unions were prepared to accept the same percentage then they might also be offered a no conditions attached deal. But would staff be prepared to accept this?

…Give all workers a £2400 rise with no strings attached for the 2022 pay award. And yes, staff would be prepared to accept that.

 

[hello]

The MPs rise is 2.9%. If the unions were prepared to accept the same percentage then they might also be offered a no conditions attached deal. But would staff be prepared to accept this?

But the have also had another pay rise in the last 3 years