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Love this.... 1W16 today (16/2) King's Cross to Inverness
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htafc
Member
Impressive indeed although 8 of those minutes were gained at station stops
(RTT link: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C12028/2023-02-16/detailed#allox_id=0)
(RTT link: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C12028/2023-02-16/detailed#allox_id=0)
dk1
Veteran Member
Always one of the greatest pleasures for me as a driver to claw back time.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
While I absolutely commend the driver and staff for making up time, mostly it seems by cutting station dwells, when you look at the schedule, the various allowances do allow for a fair amount of recovery in addition to station dwells:
London-York: 10 mins allowances
York: 6 min dwell
York-Darlington: 1.5 mins allowances
Darlington: 2 min dwell
Darlington-Newcastle: 1.5 mins allowances
Newcastle: 5 min dwell
Newcastle-Berwick: 1 min allowances
Berwick: 4 min dwell
Berwick-Edinburgh: 3.5 allowances
In theory, exclusive of station dwells, the 4h22 is doable in 4h04.5 with a clear run by the net schedule.
The Scottish Pullmans used to be booked 3h59 with York & Newcastle calls and only 1 min recovery time southbound only. Dwells were 2 mins at both stops IIRC.
DanNCL
Established Member
1 hour 49 for Kings Cross - York isn’t that impressive. 91s were regularly managing 1 hour 40 or 1 hour 41 right up until the end of 91s to Scotland in 2020. Fastest I’ve seen for an 80x to do it is, I think, 1 hour 43.
I`m sure the HST was able to do the same, and with a nine car formation too.
DanNCL
Established Member
A 2+9 HST would have struggled to match 1 hour 40 if it were strictly adhering to all speed limits. A shorter formation probably could (just) however.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
The 1200 was booked to arrive in York at 1352 when last HST operated according to the LNER timetable.
The fastest was the 2000, taking 1h48. The 1700 and 1800 were booked 1h49. Most, however, were 1h51-1h52 regardless of traction.
As it is, the current net schedule is 1h39, its only pathing and engineering allowances that make it 1h49.
The fastest publically scheduled time was 1h40 down back in the 1990s - an average of 113.1mph and without any recovery time. (The Up direction had 1 min recovery time, making it 1h41.)
dk1
Veteran Member
Unfortunately it was once stated that these were only successful around 30% of the time with those schedules. That at a time before OTMR & TPWS when drivers could exercise their driving skills to make up time. Today sadly it all has to be by the book.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Traction should be able to meet the WT schedule with recovery margins removed. According to the 2020 WTT, the 1200 King's Cross to Inverness had 8 mins of engineering and pathing allowances King's X to York. The WTT booked arrival was 1352, same as the public time. 1352 - 8 gives 1344, so 1h44 net (108.75mph average).
Very true, GNER IIRC got rid of the down service and extended the up to 4h02 in the early 2000s because of performance issues. The did bring back the 3h59 timing each way in around 2004 or 2005 for a very brief period (possibly just one summer timetable) and then scrapped it again, after that I think the fastest timing went up to something like 4h07 or thereabouts and then we got Eureka which homogenised most trains at 4h25 (unless they went beyond Edinburgh, then it was 4h22) with the addition of the morning fast Flying Scotsman 4-hour schedule with just a 3 min Newcastle stop.
The RPS (Rail Performance Society) have the fastest KGX - York (Pre-2008) at 1hr 37min 10sec and post-2008 at 1hr 40min 10sec both with class 91s. 2008 is when the more defensive driving techniques started to be introduced.
4h22 isn’t tight for the 800s.
I think my most impressive recovery is a Thameslink train approaching London Bridge 7 mins late, RT from St Pancras. Gotta love ATO.
TreacleMiller
Member
As stated these are allowances in the timing, the majority of drivers won't chase the timings and often you can't due to signalling - even if they wanted to. There's also crew changeovers that can happen a bit faster etc. As a relieving driver it's pretty annoying being given the ready to start 30 seconds after getting in a cab because a 5 min allowance has gone for a train being 11mins late etc.
Adjusting brake points a bit and going linespeed when we may normally coast is about the limit of what can be done.
Quite often trains are early between stevenage and Kx for the same reason.
Surreytraveller
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Its not the ATO, its the dwell time.
There’s a bit of dwell time, and a bit of timetable allowances, but it’s mostly the ATO. It saves nearly a minute a stop.
Wilts Wanderer
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In 1990-91 the IC225 sets were entering traffic on the London-Edinburgh route but due to late delivery of Mk4 coaches many were running as 2+7 sets or less, some with very strange formations (I have seen video of a 2+6 set with 3 buffets in passenger service.) My dad recalls travelling home on a non-stop KX-York run which started late and achieved 1h33m on green signals the whole way. No evidence but he reckoned it ran well in excess of 125mph on the nominally test-only section of 140mph north of Peterborough.
Surreytraveller
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These minutes were saved before the ATO came in. Because Thameslink doesn't have a London Terminal, plenty of time is allowed in the core to make up time, as long as a late runner isn't put behind one that's on time. There's no need for the ATO now, as its not going up to the 24tph that was planned
Being very closely involved in this, I can assure you that ATO definitely makes a difference.
ATO was necessary for 2.5min headways in the core, of which there are up to 16 in an hour in the current timetable. That we don’t have it for every service (yet, due to driver training), means that trains fail to make up as much time as they could, and those running at the back of a chain of 2.5 min headways suffer from poor punctuality.
Then you will also know it’s barely used as hardly any drivers are trained and qualified to use it!
Wilts Wanderer, I think 1hr 33 mins Kings Cross-York, would be pretty much impossible, as even the record Kings Cross-Edinburgh non stop run, with special 140mph dispensation and a shortened 5 car 225 set, achieved Kings Cross-York in about 92-93 mins. I would say with 135-140mph running and a good clear run could be done in 96 mins plus.
When the Scottish Pullmans did KGX-EDB and VV, in 3hrs and 59 mins with York and Newcastle stops, I had some blisteringly quick runs when the drivers were often needing to make up time, as the timings were very tight, especially KGX-York in 101 mins, with practically no recovery margins, and although I lost my timing logs, I have seen logs from expert and reliable timers of speeds in the 135-140mph range, and times in the sub 100 mins Kings Cross-York.
Over many years of doing the Scottish Pullmans on the 3hr 59 mins runs, I got to know the stretches where the 225’s could exceed un officially 125 mph, with 135-140mph being possible, which were Hitchin-Huntingdon-Connington, then Peterborough-Stoke summit, then Grantham-Newark North Gate down the grade, Newark-Retford in short sections, then Doncaster-York, and York-Darlington. After Newcastle there were a couple of sections where over 130mph was possible, around Chathill and Beal, and Christon Bank etc.
I certainly find the running these days to be a lot less exciting and interesting, as with OTMR etc, and train driving being well paid job, the drivers wont risk pushing it like in the old days, so now days its just down to padding and performance allowance etc to make up lost time. I also think its a shame that the record hasn’t been broken from Kings Cross to Edinburgh, as I think an IET let off the leash and allowed do 140mph where it could, would break the 3hrs 29 mins timing the record run set, by probably 5-10 mins due to the IET superior performance.
When the Scottish Pullmans did KGX-EDB and VV, in 3hrs and 59 mins with York and Newcastle stops, I had some blisteringly quick runs when the drivers were often needing to make up time, as the timings were very tight, especially KGX-York in 101 mins, with practically no recovery margins, and although I lost my timing logs, I have seen logs from expert and reliable timers of speeds in the 135-140mph range, and times in the sub 100 mins Kings Cross-York.
Over many years of doing the Scottish Pullmans on the 3hr 59 mins runs, I got to know the stretches where the 225’s could exceed un officially 125 mph, with 135-140mph being possible, which were Hitchin-Huntingdon-Connington, then Peterborough-Stoke summit, then Grantham-Newark North Gate down the grade, Newark-Retford in short sections, then Doncaster-York, and York-Darlington. After Newcastle there were a couple of sections where over 130mph was possible, around Chathill and Beal, and Christon Bank etc.
I certainly find the running these days to be a lot less exciting and interesting, as with OTMR etc, and train driving being well paid job, the drivers wont risk pushing it like in the old days, so now days its just down to padding and performance allowance etc to make up lost time. I also think its a shame that the record hasn’t been broken from Kings Cross to Edinburgh, as I think an IET let off the leash and allowed do 140mph where it could, would break the 3hrs 29 mins timing the record run set, by probably 5-10 mins due to the IET superior performance.
about 50% of my trains have it on, including both of those I used yesterday. Bedford depot is further ahead in training than the others.
Wychwood93
Member
The March Modern Railways, which arrived this morning, mentions on page 3. "GTR reports that around one-quarter of all services through the core now use ETCS and ATO - of around 700 affected drivers, some 200 are trained so far, and it will take a couple more years until all are trained."
Any idea why the training has taken quite so long? I assume Covid will have had an impact.
Covid training restrictions
Absence rate still double that of 2019
The dispute
Other training (still a backlog of route knowledge)
More leavers than expected
etc
There was also a seeming reluctance of those trained to use it, but a couple of SPADs in the core sorted that.
Interesting.
GTR gave a pretty bad track record of delivering training, thinking back to the disaster in 2018. I reckon 1/3 or less of trains I take through the core are using it. I’m sure there are timing benefits, but it doesn’t exactly make for a smooth and comfortable journey!
dk1
Veteran Member
I don’t get the absence rate. My depot is the biggest at my TOC & we see little or no difference to pre-Covid sickness with a very low rate now. I wonder why some (TPE apparently have 14%) are so bad. Thankfully our training throughout the last 3 years has been excellent but that’s another story.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
TLK drivers set the Gold standard for driver despatch and thats worth plenty of seconds as well
GA, LO and MTR drivers are pretty swift too.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
From my experience , (retired old so and so) , the performance of an ATO driven train in the core is very impressive. Clearly faster and superlative smooth stops.
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