East Midlands Railway overcrowding issues

[londonmidland]

Weekend, leisure travel is booming across the East Midlands network, which regularly overwhelms both InterCity and Regional services. Pretty much all day, you will have well loaded trains, which quite often leads to trains being full and standing.

For the Intercity services, its quite obvious where the issue lies here - 5 coach 222s forming the majority of services just aren’t adequate for the amount of passengers they carry. Both Standard and First Class areas of the train are packed to the rafters.

Today, my train 1C41 was full and standing throughout, in both First and Standard accommodation. It doesn't help that there is a reduced timetable due to engineering works. However, there is not a single 10 car formation out today, just a lot of 5 car and a few 7 cars according to Real Time Trains.

The regional side isn’t much better too. Common offenders of overcrowding are the Leicester-Nottingham-Lincoln ‘Ivanhoe’ stopping services, the Crewe to Derby & Nottingham services and probably the worst one, the Liverpool - Nottingham and Norwich services. Between Liverpool & Sheffield, this is probably the most busiest part of the route.

The InterCity side is supposed to get better once the 810s come into service, as they offer more seats compared to a 5 car 222, however what/will the Regional side see any improvements in terms of capacity?

 

[TheBigD]

Can't answer why there are no double sets out. Service is diverted via Corby and has a roughly hourly service to each of Nottingham and Sheffield. From looking at RTT it would need around 13 or 14 units, so there should be scope to double some services up. A fleet of 4 x 180 and 27 x 222 should be able to provide enough units for most services to be either 7 or 10 cars.

Last weekend was similar except that Thameslink were also using St Pancras and there were only 3 platforms available for EMR with a few services double platformed.

 

[LowLevel]

It's been nuts today. No idea why the Londons are all single sets but all routes have been extremely busy. They've done what they could and strengthened some Liverpool - Norwich trains ad hoc.

Certainly (and I say this quite a lot) the busiest day I've had in quite a while - the East Midlands network is booming but suffering as usual with a shortage of stock.

 

[richardderby]

Quicker and more relaxing to travel to London via Tamworth when Corby diverts operating . less than 2 hours from Derby and 8 car trains on the electric service to Euston ⚡ probably cheaper too if you get a LNWR fare.

 

[Class 170101]

West Coast disruption may have also been a factor if Crewe was closed or even more severely disrupted earlier in the day

NR Crewe "Signalling Failure" - affects 2 tocs but not the third one?!

For the record, I'm not a conspiracy theorist flat earther... however this morning something strange is going on. Again, about the fourth time now. The line via Wilmslow is seemingly blocked for Avanti Pendolinos which are diverted via Macclesfield, and TfW's Cardiff DMUs are being spun at...

www.railforums.co.uk

25kv short circuited through signal gantry/bonds and fried everything in the equipment room

and

The issue is a Crewe station itself, and has severely restricted what platforms are available to trains.

Shrewsbury line can only reach platforms 11 and 12

Platforms 7 and 8 are unavailable entirely.

Platforms 1 to 6 are restricted at the South end, access only to/from the Fast or Alsager lines.

In practice all trains having to use the fast lines between Stafford and Crewe.

North end is all largely unaffected.

As such TfW have no route across Crewe to get from Shrewsbury to Manchester, so are terminating Crewe.

Avanti have been required to thin their services out due to lack of available platforms, hence diverting via Macclesfield.

 

[Snow1964]

Today, my train 1C41 was full and standing throughout, in both First and Standard accommodation. It doesn't help that there is a reduced timetable due to engineering works. However, there is not a single 10 car formation out today, just a lot of 5 car and a few 7 cars according to Real Time Trains.

Completely bonkers to thin out the frequency due to engineering and then run short half length trains. Sort of end up with half of half, or about quarter capacity.

 

[gazzaa2]

Cross Country trains are very busy as well serving East Mids at the weekend (and everywhere else).

A lot of focus goes 'on the north' for inadequate rail services but the Midlands is bad as well (although probably gets lumped in as 'the north' by the London-centric nation.

It comes down to carriages mostly with EMR. 2 cars on the weekend isn't good enough, even 4 isn't enough if there's a big event on in the city it's travelling to. The 2 car Crewe-Newark is ridiculous if there's a race day at Uttoxeter or Derby/Forest are at home and there's a lot of home or away fans on the Saturday morning services. That's without factoring in other factors like school holidays or a good weather day etc. And for the trains going on to London 5 cars is just not enough.

At least the Liverpool-Cleethorpes (when it actually runs) alleviates the EMR Liverpool-Sheffield a bit.

 

[Sleepy]

But Mr Harper thinks nobody is travelling by train anymore ??

 

[JonathanH]

But Mr Harper thinks nobody is travelling by train anymore ??

Weekend travellers don't bring in the same level of individual revenue as people on anytime tickets.

 

[43074]

Weekend travellers don't bring in the same level of individual revenue as people on anytime tickets.

With respect we are still talking about passengers travelling between London, Leicester, Nottingham and Sheffield which bring in a substantial amount of revenue nonetheless.

Weekend leisure demand has increased compared to before the pandemic, so the gap between weekday and weekend revenue is less than it was.

 

[LowLevel]

Certainly working as a guard today I took over a grand in revenue. It was just non stop.

 

[WizCastro197]

Running 5 coaches on London-Sheffield on days without engineering is just plain stupid, as many trains arrive at Leicester already packed with the boards asking passengers to use next available service, which was also limited in standing room. I am genuinely confused why EMR didn't jump at the chance to lengthen all trains to at least 7 coaches when they began to order new trains?

 

[JonathanH]

I am genuinely confused why EMR didn't jump at the chance to lengthen all trains to at least 7 coaches when they began to order new trains?

How could they have done that? Do you mean switch all Sheffield trains to at least 7 coaches?

They switched two 7-cars and four 4-cars to make up six 5-cars for fleet standardisation, recognising the future operation with 5-car 810s, and platform lengths at St Pancras. They didn't have enough rolling stock to lengthen all trains to at least 7 coaches.

 

[paul1609]

This is quite interesting, I don't often travel on the MML but a couple of weeks ago went up to Barnsley from Kent. Booking a week in advance I was amazed at the low price of the fares £19 from Appledore Kent and £21 return with a railcard. Going up just after the morning peak on a Tuesday and returning mid day on a Wednesday. The Intercity trains I travelled on were near empty certainly no more than 10% loaded in both directions throughout.

 

[Scott1]

Running 5 coaches on London-Sheffield on days without engineering is just plain stupid, as many trains arrive at Leicester already packed with the boards asking passengers to use next available service, which was also limited in standing room. I am genuinely confused why EMR didn't jump at the chance to lengthen all trains to at least 7 coaches when they began to order new trains?

The DfT didn't want the expense. You could work around it at STP, though it would have required timetable change because of the limited platform space.

 

[BJames]

This is a permanent problem on the MML. I don't travel a huge amount during weekday daytime so I'm not sure how busy e.g. 1235 up to Nottingham from London is - but certainly heading south, where I can I take evening services from Nottingham to London (particular favourite is the 1950 which is booked a 10-car unit) or upgrade to first class if there are good advance deals on. On weekends if I've got an open return I always check in advance to see which services are allocated 10 car and will take those. I'm also always at the station very early to be at the front of the barriers if I have no reservation, and quick on my feet, so I don't mind just turning up - but regularly you get the full and standing messages on EMR website and departure boards.#

I look forward to seeing what, if any, difference the 810s will make. I suspect underordering = less double sets than expected = some improvement but marginal. But I will remain optimistic - let's see.

 

[IceBlue]

Since the route was extended, Crewe to Newark Castle has really exploded in ridership so much that I can't remember the last time there weren't people standing. With three car 170s prioritised for the Robin Hood line it should surely be the first priority for running double 170 sets expect on weekends as the remainer trickle in from WMR

 

[LowLevel]

Since the route was extended, Crewe to Newark Castle has really exploded in ridership so much that I can't remember the last time there weren't people standing. With three car 170s prioritised for the Robin Hood line it should surely be the first priority for running double 170 sets expect on weekends as the remainer trickle in from WMR

Nah. Only when the races are on or Sheffield - Manchester is shut. Otherwise a 2 car is busy but manageable, though don't get me wrong - it is unrecognisable from 153 days.

Grimsby to Nottingham often leaves people behind and is wedged even with 3 cars - that includes the section from Grimsby to Lincoln that used to be a 153.

 

[WizCastro197]

How could they have done that? Do you mean switch all Sheffield trains to at least 7 coaches?

They switched two 7-cars and four 4-cars to make up six 5-cars for fleet standardisation, recognising the future operation with 5-car 810s, and platform lengths at St Pancras. They didn't have enough rolling stock to lengthen all trains to at least 7 coaches.

No, sorry, I meant why did they not order 7 coach 810s but now from your post I understand that St Pancras platforms are the limitation?

 

[STINT47]

I look forward to seeing what, if any, difference the 810s will make. I suspect underordering = less double sets than expected = some improvement but marginal. But I will remain optimistic - let's see.

I'm also looking forward to the new trains but fear the extra capacity will quickly be taken up by suppressed demand.

I don't travel as often as I used to when we had HSTs to London and I'm sure I'm not the only one. If trains become less crowded I might start travelling more often again but then will the trains not end up being just as busy?

Perhaps some additional units can be ordered before the production ends.

 

[JonathanH]

No, sorry, I meant why did they not order 7 coach 810s but now from your post I understand that St Pancras platforms are the limitation?

Yes, the 810s are a specific length to enable two of them to fit in the platforms at St Pancras.

There are 33 810s due, compared with 27 222s and 4 180s. The number of standard class seats in a 5-car 810 is more than the number in a 7-car 222 - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...roduction-updates.195052/page-41#post-5788386

 

[TheBigD]

Same today, nearly all services 5 car, with just a couple of services that are 7 car. Not a single service doubled up

 

[gazzaa2]

Since the route was extended, Crewe to Newark Castle has really exploded in ridership so much that I can't remember the last time there weren't people standing. With three car 170s prioritised for the Robin Hood line it should surely be the first priority for running double 170 sets expect on weekends as the remainer trickle in from WMR

2 car is badly inadequate for this when there's an event on. I've got it when it's been full and standing before it's even left Crewe when there's a race on at Uttoxeter or football fans travelling to Derby/Nottingham.

Otherwise it's okay between Crewe and Stoke and busy between Stoke and Derby but then plenty get off at Derby and Nottingham.

 

[38Cto15E]

So we are having the 810's in their 5 car format so two sets will fit into the platforms at St Pancras.

First we got shunted out from Euston Road to Cambridge St for Eurostar, then we virtually lost 25% of our platforms to East Midlands Regional trains and now with the common 2 x 5 cars on one platform, if your'e in the furthest unit with an Advance ticket you have along trek to the far end and all in 10.1 seconds if the inbound train is running a bit late. I'm mobility impaired but do not need assistance, and I feel that the great Cities of Leicester, Nottingham, Derby, Chesterfield? and Sheffield have drawn the short straw yet again. Finally, confusion reigns when the platform opens to passengers and in the sprint, non regular travellers with EMR become confused on which train is theirs.

 

[fandroid]

It's not limited to the Midlands and the North.

I travelled from Reading to Bristol a few weeks ago on a Saturday. Nothing special happening from the point of view of strikes, engineering, sport or other event. Standing all the way to Bath (standing on arrival from Paddington too) and I'd guess that passengers were left on the platform at Chippenham.

Short formation of course!

 

[Llandudno]

So we are having the 810's in their 5 car format so two sets will fit into the platforms at St Pancras.

First we got shunted out from Euston Road to Cambridge St for Eurostar, then we virtually lost 25% of our platforms to East Midlands Regional trains and now with the common 2 x 5 cars on one platform, if your'e in the furthest unit with an Advance ticket you have along trek to the far end and all in 10.1 seconds if the inbound train is running a bit late. I'm mobility impaired but do not need assistance, and I feel that the great Cities of Leicester, Nottingham, Derby, Chesterfield? and Sheffield have drawn the short straw yet again. Finally, confusion reigns when the platform opens to passengers and in the sprint, non regular travellers with EMR become confused on which train is theirs.

I wonder what will be the furthest away from Central London:
St Pancras/Camden Town or
Old Oak Common the proposed HS2 terminus

 

[Senex]

So we are having the 810's in their 5 car format so two sets will fit into the platforms at St Pancras.

First we got shunted out from Euston Road to Cambridge St for Eurostar, then we virtually lost 25% of our platforms to East Midlands Regional trains and now with the common 2 x 5 cars on one platform, if your'e in the furthest unit with an Advance ticket you have along trek to the far end and all in 10.1 seconds if the inbound train is running a bit late. I'm mobility impaired but do not need assistance, and I feel that the great Cities of Leicester, Nottingham, Derby, Chesterfield? and Sheffield have drawn the short straw yet again. Finally, confusion reigns when the platform opens to passengers and in the sprint, non regular travellers with EMR become confused on which train is theirs.

St Pancras, as a complete rebuild, is effectively one of the most modern stations in the country, yet there was so little future-proofing in the design that it's that station the dictates a special build of train to work into it because the platforms are so short (and too few, and with poor access). The Midland cities did indeed draw the short railway straw once again.

 

[JonathanH]

St Pancras, as a complete rebuild, is effectively one of the most modern stations in the country, yet there was so little future-proofing in the design that it's that station the dictates a special build of train to work into it because the platforms are so short (and too few, and with poor access). The Midland cities did indeed draw the short railway straw once again.

They aren't 'so short'. At 240 metres, they are a fairly standard length for 12 car trains formed of 20 metre stock, and 10 car trains formed of 23 metre stock, both fairly standard configurations.

10-car long distance trains formed of 26 metre stock weren't in consideration when it was built, but it isn't clear to me that there would have been a lot of space for longer platforms in any case.

 

[TheBigD]

They aren't 'so short'. At 240 metres, they are a fairly standard length for 12 car trains formed of 20 metre stock, and 10 car trains formed of 23 metre stock, both fairly standard configurations.

10-car long distance trains formed of 26 metre stock weren't in consideration when it was built, but it isn't clear to me that there would have been a lot of space for longer platforms in any case.

One of the options for the St Pancras rebuild would have seen what is now platform 4 extended all the way in to the main trainshed giving a double length platform and extra flexibility. It was dropped early on (I think) in favour of more retail/circulation space and what we have today.

I tend to agree with others that the MML platform and concourse seem cramped and crowded at the best of times, especially when there is disruption.

 

[JonathanH]

I tend to agree with others that the MML platform and concourse seem cramped and crowded at the best of times, especially when there is disruption.

I think that is fair comment. It doesn't indicate that a lot more space was available for longer platforms.