Heritage railway financial problems.

[Paul Hitchcock]

Yes but does it suffer overall?

If money is "tight" does that mean that some of, for want of a better word, "the well off" trade down, so rather than having two foreign holidays per year instead have one foreign holiday and one minibreak in the UK?

You may well argue that there are more "less well off" than "well off" so overall the UK market suffers but I dont think I have seen any data to suggest that conclusively this is indeed the case.

Perhaps the problem may be more to do with CPVID having dampened down the habit of going for "a day out".

I dont think anyone really knows but for HRs to survive I think they need to up their game as so many other tourist attractions appear to have done so.

Quite so. A number were very sluggish post lockdown

 

[bramling]

Yes but does it suffer overall?

If money is "tight" does that mean that some of, for want of a better word, "the well off" trade down, so rather than having two foreign holidays per year instead have one foreign holiday and one minibreak in the UK?

I’m not sure that follows, as a holiday in the U.K. is likely to be just as expensive as abroad, if not more so, unless one resorts to drastic measures like spending the week in a Travelodge and eating at JD Wetherspoon!

 

[birchesgreen]

I think, if you can't guarantee a choo-choo (for want of a better word) for non-enthusiasts then you need to offer a destination. Travelling up and down some decent though not spectacular countryside will become a bit dull if there isn't something good at the end of the journey. And i don't just mean a cafe/bar and a gift shop.

Taking the SVR as an example, a family arrives at Kidderminster and pays for a ticket (which could be 100 quid?), they travel up to Bridgnorth, then what? How well explained is the walk to the cliff railway, or what the town offers? They might not even want to walk that far especially with small children. So what is there to do, have a look at some old locos ok. I can easily see everyone being a bit bored though after what is quite a long journey due to the speed limit.

Highley is the better bet with the Engine House though that is a troublesome station due to the short platform. Arley could be something to make more of if the garden area was expanded.

I think to compete now a HR needs to offer convenience, information and most of all things to do to cater for a wide variety of tastes.

 

[Titfield]

I think to compete now a HR needs to offer convenience, information and most of all things to do to cater for a wide variety of tastes.

Which is why, arguably, the Isle of Wight Steam Railway does well because it has a wide range of "attractions" (things to see and do) at Havenstreet (one central location) including shop, cafe, Train Story and the Falconry.

I’m not sure that follows, as a holiday in the U.K. is likely to be just as expensive as abroad, if not more so, unless one resorts to drastic measures like spending the week in a Travelodge and eating at JD Wetherspoon!

I think trading down suggests that they would spend less, possibly with a shorter duration break or by trading down from a 5 star to a 4 star. If there is no financial saving then there is nothing to be gained by not going abroad. If they are in the UK the money they spend is in the UK (obviously) and not abroad.

 

[bramling]

Which is why, arguably, the Isle of Wight Steam Railway does well because it has a wide range of "attractions" (things to see and do) at Havenstreet (one central location) including shop, cafe, Train Story and the Falconry.

Personal view, however I don’t find the IWSR that great. The cafe is very average indeed, and whilst the shed is of some interest there isn’t that much in there. The train ride is also very average, and in fact can border on tedious because of the way the train turns round twice, and there’s certainly no “destination” at either end. Certainly last year they were heavily into the whole pre-booking model, which along with staff who always seem to be a little moody whoever we’ve visited, all combined to make our visit a bit underwhelming bordering on disappointing.

I suspect they do well simply because they are there, it’s something for people to do - including in poor weather - and there’s a steady stream of holidaymakers especially tilted towards the pensioner demographic. If they were located somewhere with less of a holidays market I suspect they wouldn’t do so well.

To be honest, with quite a bit to see and do on the island, not least the major honeypot of Osborne House only a couple of miles away, I’m surprised they do as well as they do.

 

[John Luxton]

Maybe they need to spend their hard earned on more important things like food, gas & electricity bills which have all gone through the roof.

For me to enjoy a day at the SVR it’ll cost, with admission, food & travel around £60.
I used to go quite a bit but just can’t afford it now.

Therefore unfortunately the preservation scene suffers.

I am wondering just how much the so called cost of living crisis has impacted society?

Last Saturday I took a trip by bus and train to The National Waterways Museum, Ellesmere Port for the Easter Boat Gathering.

On the way home I passed through Liverpool City Centre about 15:30 and was amazed at just how busy the bars and restaurants were with people even standing outside of some of the venues. This was well before the evening "nightlife" got under way.

There was clearly a lot of people spending a lot of money.

There is still a lot of money out there ready to be tapped into. Personally I would rather spend £50 to £100 or more having a good day out at a heritage venue (doesn't have to be exclusively railways) than blow it on excessive consumption particularly of alcohol which will leave you with nothing but a sore head. Don't get me wrong I like real ale etc but I am aware of the negative effect it can have on one's funds.

As I mentioned in an earlier post people will shell out for premium rail tours. I can't imagine that all the passengers of the dining tours / Belmond offerings are railway enthusiasts.

Some railways have dipped their toes into the hospitality trade and it looks as though Lynton and Barnstaple are the next addition to the list with the acquisition of the Station Inn at Blackmoor Gate. I know hospitality is facing its own problems with energy costs and staffing - but there is clearly a cash rich market to be tapped out there.

 

[bramling]

I am wondering just how much the so called cost of living crisis has impacted society?

Last Saturday I took a trip by bus and train to The National Waterways Museum, Ellesmere Port for the Easter Boat Gathering.

On the way home I passed through Liverpool City Centre about 15:30 and was amazed at just how busy the bars and restaurants were with people even standing outside of some of the venues. This was well before the evening "nightlife" got under way.

There was clearly a lot of people spending a lot of money.

There is still a lot of money out there ready to be tapped into. Personally I would rather spend £50 to £100 or more having a good day out at a heritage venue (doesn't have to be exclusively railways) than blow it on excessive consumption particularly of alcohol which will leave you with nothing but a sore head. Don't get me wrong I like real ale etc but I am aware of the negative effect it can have on one's funds.

As I mentioned in an earlier post people will shell out for premium rail tours. I can't imagine that all the passengers of the dining tours / Belmond offerings are railway enthusiasts.

Some railways have dipped their toes into the hospitality trade and it looks as though Lynton and Barnstaple are the next addition to the list with the acquisition of the Station Inn at Blackmoor Gate. I know hospitality is facing its own problems with energy costs and staffing - but there is clearly a cash rich market to be tapped out there.

Sadly I think this says more about our current society that people would rather pee their money up the wall on alcohol and food than do something more enriching. Even if one visits something like a NT property it’s quite conspicuous how comparatively few people are actually “interested”, with features like the cafe or playground being the main highlights for many.

 

[Meerkat]

If a line often doesn't have steam and has the space then a small steam narrow gauge/miniature railway at one station would be a good thing. Those expecting steam still get some, cheaper to steam up, steam staff can maintain it, and easier to offer on spec driver experiences etc.

 

[Robert Ambler]

I think the financial problems some heritage railways are experiencing are less to do with their individual operating models and rather more to do with the malaise of the UK Economy generally.

Households have seen big falls in income in real terms and big rises in costs. The same is true for businesses in all sectors -agriculture, manufacturing, finance, services, retail, hospitality, entertainment, leisure etc - are all seeing big falls in revenue and big rises in costs (much bigger than the rises households are facing). The same is true for public services and we can all see their problems playing out over the last few months (or perhaps years).

I see earlier comments about how well hospitality seems to be doing. That is not borne out by industry reports which show big rises in costs and lower footfall and revenue with many venues closing and many more expected to close.

This forum is probably not the place to discuss how the UK got in this position or how to turn it around but there is little evidence it is going to improve in the short term.

 

[philthetube]

Being a branch line enthusiast, I don't mind the 25 mph speed restriction on heritage lines. In fact, the slower the better from the point of view of enjoying the view and the wildlife. The Talyllyn Rly is very friendly, and seems set on giving customers a good day out while preserving its authenticity, it is my favourite, and I shall never forget watching a red kite from the train for several minutes. But if your interest is in express locos and their performance, you are probably better off travelling on a main line steam special - if you can afford the prices these days. Giving my age away, I recall paying a fiver for a special train ride in the Seventies. I was paid £2K a year then, and when I retired in 2012 i was on £42K doing a more responsible job. A ride on a special train now costs about £120 to £165 (I never went in for the Premier Dining seats!), so riding on enthusiast main line specials has gone up a little more than wage levels but not dramatically so. I recall paying about 50p for a day return over the 6-7 mile long South Devon Rly (then called the Dart Valley Rly) in my youth, and it now costs £18 for a day return - an increase which is way ahead of wage rises over the years. Perhaps heritage railways are in danger of pricing themselves out of the market?

being someone who, while not an enthusiast, and having no real interest in stock types, enjoys riding on trains, I would pay a premium to ride behind steam, however if I want a leisurely trip as described by stint47 I would rather pay for Middlesbrough Whitby or Llandudno Blaenau Ffestiniog for my leisurely diesel trip rather than 3 times the price on heritage.

 

[Halwynd]

On the way home I passed through Liverpool City Centre about 15:30 and was amazed at just how busy the bars and restaurants were with people even standing outside of some of the venues. This was well before the evening "nightlife" got under way.

There was clearly a lot of people spending a lot of money.

There well might be a lot of money out there - and there might be a a lot more debt too.

A recent Bank of England report said that borrowing, mainly on credit cards, has increased to its highest level for seventeen years. Unfortunately some of it will have been taken out by people who have been forced to do so because of current economic circumstances, but I reckon some will be borrowing just to maintain lifestyles - or 'keeping up with the Joneses' as it used to be called.

It's a bit like all those expensive new cars on the road. You think some folk are wealthy and have lots of money, and then you look at the financing figures and see that 90% of all new car purchases are made using some form of credit or PCP contract.

On the subject of preserved railways, I still think most offer reasonably good value for money. It's a long time since I've travelled on a railtour but some of the prices I've seen are now ridiculous, the Locomotive Services companies based at Crewe perhaps being the exception. In comparison I think a day at a preserved railway is still very good value for money and actually a much better day out.

 

[12C]

It’s very worrying to hear about the financial problems of various heritage railways, although not really surprising given the events of the past few years.

However, if any of the larger lines face going into administration how well protected are they from the line actually closing down/having the track ripped up? As I understand several have the preservation society and commercial arm as two separate entities, so the commercial side going bust wouldn’t necessarily mean the railway’s actual closure. Indeed, in some cases could bankruptcy and restarting afresh post administration with a new commercial business actually be helpful, if a lot of the debts had been wiped out (except for creditors of course).

Two recent examples I can think of are the Llangollen and South Tynedale Railway which have both entered administration, but due to this arrangement have reopened seemingly quite successfully. The Llangollen seems to be doing well now and progressing with it’s extension to Corwen, despite financial issues a couple of years ago.

 

[bramling]

There well might be a lot of money out there - and there might be a a lot more debt too.

A recent Bank of England report said that borrowing, mainly on credit cards, has increased to its highest level for seventeen years. Unfortunately some of it will have been taken out by people who have been forced to do so because of current economic circumstances, but I reckon some will be borrowing just to maintain lifestyles - or 'keeping up with the Joneses' as it used to be called.

It's a bit like all those expensive new cars on the road. You think some folk are wealthy and have lots of money, and then you look at the financing figures and see that 90% of all new car purchases are made using some form of credit or PCP contract.

On the subject of preserved railways, I still think most offer reasonably good value for money. It's a long time since I've travelled on a railtour but some of the prices I've seen are now ridiculous, the Locomotive Services companies based at Crewe perhaps being the exception. In comparison I think a day at a preserved railway is still very good value for money and actually a much better day out.

All the fuss about higher interest rates shows just how much of a problem all this debt is, and indeed 4.25% is hardly high by historical standards. Given all the fuss about rates, I’ve no doubt that they will be lowered absolutely as soon as possible, leading to the same mistake being repeated again.

 

[John Luxton]

Two recent examples I can think of are the Llangollen and South Tynedale Railway which have both entered administration, but due to this arrangement have reopened seemingly quite successfully. The Llangollen seems to be doing well now and progressing with it’s extension to Corwen, despite financial issues a couple of years ago.

It would appear that Llangollen's problems were apparent before the Pandemic. I bought shares in Llangollen Railway plc in the 1990s.

In early 2020 (before Covid) they sent out some rather hurried begging letters to shareholders and I, as I presume many other shareholders did, sent cash.

When it comes to heritage railways I am never a big donor - but have always spent generously on their retail offerings when visiting - however I might as well have burnt my £200 for what good it did for Llangollen.

It appears that very large debts had been built up as the result of poor management and bad engineering contracts with groups such as the Unknown Warrior Patriot Group.

Basically they appeared to be generating cash flow to mask problems but there is only so long one can do that before the pigeons come home to roost!

One day the full story of what really went on at Llangollen will reach the public domain and I am sure it will be essential reading for many.

All the fuss about higher interest rates shows just how much of a problem all this debt is, and indeed 4.25% is hardly high by historical standards. Given all the fuss about rates, I’ve no doubt that they will be lowered absolutely as soon as possible, leading to the same mistake being repeated again.

Some of us like the higher rates - those of us who have been savers in recent years have been poorly served. At least the Premium Bonds are delivering bigger and more frequent prizes since last autumn. Would like to see rates back to something as they were in Mrs T's day. I know that won't please some and it didn't please my parents as they owed a bit back then but got through.

 

[nanstallon]

There well might be a lot of money out there - and there might be a a lot more debt too.

A recent Bank of England report said that borrowing, mainly on credit cards, has increased to its highest level for seventeen years. Unfortunately some of it will have been taken out by people who have been forced to do so because of current economic circumstances, but I reckon some will be borrowing just to maintain lifestyles - or 'keeping up with the Joneses' as it used to be called.

It's a bit like all those expensive new cars on the road. You think some folk are wealthy and have lots of money, and then you look at the financing figures and see that 90% of all new car purchases are made using some form of credit or PCP contract.

On the subject of preserved railways, I still think most offer reasonably good value for money. It's a long time since I've travelled on a railtour but some of the prices I've seen are now ridiculous, the Locomotive Services companies based at Crewe perhaps being the exception. In comparison I think a day at a preserved railway is still very good value for money and actually a much better day out.

When I was poor, I made it a rule to have at least one decent day out per month, just to maintain morale. Otherwise you just get into a slough of despond.

 

[bramling]

When I was poor, I made it a rule to have at least one decent day out per month, just to maintain morale. Otherwise you just get into a slough of despond.

That’s okay as long as it doesn’t involve a credit card, or even worse a loan, and where paying it off is going to be a problem in the future. For people in that position, all that happens is they end up in a deeper spiral of debt as the interest mounts up - even with 2010s levels of interest rates. Really there should be a tightening up of credit availability, however no one will do this as financial institutions make a lot of money from interest repayments, and from the government point of view it keeps people superficially happy.

 

[SLC001]

As always we have to be sure that we do not generalise but as a former financial adviser it always concerned me how many people borrowed to fund their lifestyle and at interest rates which made your eyes water. I know of debt counsellors who are concerned about people's lack of understanding of finance and/or there total inability to control their expenditure. It will be worse now than for a long time because of the huge cost of living increases - just look at your grocery shop and how that has risen. No-one is immune from this or the huge rise in heating bills.
Going back to heritage railways, I can think of several instances where a company providing a "product" has tried to diversify and ended up alienating the very market that had served them so well. On a personal note to make the point, I subscribe to Sky but while the sport is there and there is in some ways more variety than before to accommodate broader tastes, there is less of what I want to watch. Consequently I am considering stopping my Sky subscription because the value for money is significantly diminished. Heritage railways need to focus on core attractions and develop what has worked before and resist the temptation to try something else because it is fashionable - or an MDs fantasy!

 

[172007]

As always we have to be sure that we do not generalise but as a former financial adviser it always concerned me how many people borrowed to fund their lifestyle and at interest rates which made your eyes water. I know of debt counsellors who are concerned about people's lack of understanding of finance and/or there total inability to control their expenditure. It will be worse now than for a long time because of the huge cost of living increases - just look at your grocery shop and how that has risen. No-one is immune from this or the huge rise in heating bills.
Going back to heritage railways, I can think of several instances where a company providing a "product" has tried to diversify and ended up alienating the very market that had served them so well. On a personal note to make the point, I subscribe to Sky but while the sport is there and there is in some ways more variety than before to accommodate broader tastes, there is less of what I want to watch. Consequently I am considering stopping my Sky subscription because the value for money is significantly diminished. Heritage railways need to focus on core attractions and develop what has worked before and resist the temptation to try something else because it is fashionable - or an MDs fantasy!

Interesting you should suggest Heritsge Railways should focus on core attractions, I had been thinking of this already.

The SVR have the engine house, it's a museum, at Highley. I would have thought that mothballing would significantly reduce Electric and heating costs plus from FB posts the time and effort of volunteers keeping it clean and engines polished could be used for operational requirements. This facility whilst a great facility and brings revenue in does it really cover its overheads and I immahine the vast majority of people go to the SVR to ride a train and would still do so if the museum was closed.

 

[Titfield]

the time and effort of volunteers keeping it clean and engines polished could be used for operational requirements

Many volunteers will only do what they want to do rather than what is needed to be done. To keep many volunteers happy, "the management" never challenge this behaviour probably because though if a volunteer is asked to do something they dont want to do they, the volunteers, just walk away, criticising "the management".

How many heritage railways have an abundance of volunteers to act as porters, signallers, carry out maintenance or restore multiple locomotives but have to employ staff in the catering department?

 

[43096]

Many volunteers will only do what they want to do rather than what is needed to be done. To keep many volunteers happy, "the management" never challenge this behaviour probably because though if a volunteer is asked to do something they dont want to do they, the volunteers, just walk away, criticising "the management".

That's entirely understandable: if you are giving your own time, for free, as a volunteer, you're going to be pretty hacked off very quickly if you're doing something you don't like. Railway management need to understand that - it is totally different from dealing with paid staff as volunteers hold the balance of power in the relationship

 

[John Luxton]

Interesting you should suggest Heritsge Railways should focus on core attractions, I had been thinking of this already.

The SVR have the engine house, it's a museum, at Highley. I would have thought that mothballing would significantly reduce Electric and heating costs plus from FB posts the time and effort of volunteers keeping it clean and engines polished could be used for operational requirements. This facility whilst a great facility and brings revenue in does it really cover its overheads and I immahine the vast majority of people go to the SVR to ride a train and would still do so if the museum was closed.

I hadn't visited the SVR for quite a few years between early 1990s and only started visiting again in 2010s. In that time the Engine House appeared. It took me until just before Covid kicked off in 2020 to visit the Engine House. I didn't use the train to visit either. I did my round trip from Bridgnorth on the train then drove down to Highley. It is one of those things once visited - do you need to do it again sort of thing. I made two visits to the SVR in 2022 for two round trips but again didn't visit the Engine House. I wonder how much traffic and business the Engine House actually generates?

 

[bramling]

I hadn't visited the SVR for quite a few years between early 1990s and only started visiting again in 2010s. In that time the Engine House appeared. It took me until just before Covid kicked off in 2020 to visit the Engine House. I didn't use the train to visit either. I did my round trip from Bridgnorth on the train then drove down to Highley. It is one of those things once visited - do you need to do it again sort of thing. I made two visits to the SVR in 2022 for two round trips but again didn't visit the Engine House. I wonder how much traffic and business the Engine House actually generates?

It’s always seemed pretty popular when I’ve passed through. Not entirely sure why, as I tend to agree with what you say, but it does seem that people seem to go there. If nothing else it does contain a spacious cafe.

Personally I think it’s a bit of a blot on the station’s landscape, but it does perform a function.

 

[Robin Procter]

People are skint and preserved railways are expensive days out.
A small part of the population still scared of catching COVID.
After the lockdowns and travel restrictions. people just want to go to the sun this year. A wet week in Rhyl doesnt appeal.
Public transport has become traumatically unreliable, so people dont travel.

.... Plus the costs of operation including the black gold known as 'coal', even water! Why can't they pump and hence recycle some water out the river before it drowns them anyway? I'm told that the subsidence problems are serious but i guess it's not something to advertise to potential travellers!

If people can afford to take holidays in the sun, they aren't exactly skint.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

.

 

[Robin Procter]

Every heritage railway is unique and there are, i think, over 100 in the UK.

The longer the line, the higher the costs. Also, internal politics on the bigger ones have a lot to answer for as they tend to result in poor management. Just look at West Somerset Railway as a prime example.

I'm not sure the recently departed head woman did the SVR many favours with her talk of reducing volunteers. The volunteers are the lifeblood of every heritage railway!

 

[John Luxton]

Every heritage railway is unique and there are, i think, over 100 in the UK.

The longer the line, the higher the costs. Also, internal politics on the bigger ones have a lot to answer for as they tend to result in poor management. Just look at West Somerset Railway as a prime example.

I'm not sure the recently departed head woman did the SVR many favours with her talk of reducing volunteers. The volunteers are the lifeblood of every heritage railway!

Not being a member I am not aware of the SVR's management. But is part of the problem faced by some heritage lines is that they are suffering as a consequence of recruiting professional managers, perhaps some from the general tourist industry, and not people from a railway background with a feel for what is going on or know how railways worked.

A certain well known and travelled heritage ship appeared to be suffering from that problem in the 2010s until finally control was taken back and the professional manager given the boot.

 

[Blindtraveler]

On the one hand it doesn't surprise me that heritage operations are struggling. Pretty much everyone else before me has pointed out the glaringly obvious reasons why so I won't bother doing so again however what does surprise me is that a prominent sufferer is one which has a direct connection to the main line network. For me and doubtless many others the sort of operation that easiest to use from a day out or holiday viewpoint is something that doesn't require an enormous around of additional travel to reach it. I spent an enjoyable bank holiday Monday on the Romney hive and dim church but over 50% of that day was spent in traveling to and from the attraction and in fact I didn't even go all the way home on that day as due to a family engagement the following day I chose to overnight on the Kent coast.

I wonder how other operations with direct rail access or easy access by bus or coach without enormous additional journeys are dping?

I wonder and I'm sure someone with far more knowledge than I have will be able to put me right here if there might be some money to be saved by having specific running days dedicated to steam or diesel or even new build battery electric hybrid or plug-in rechargeable locomotives? How much impact would use of heritage or even more modern day xbr multiple units have on costs

 

[Techniquest]

Well I didn't go to the SVR after all today. I considered it, but I seem to recall there's a diesel gala next month which I think I'd enjoy more, thus better personal value for money. In the end, today's priority was a big session of cycling and a focus on personal fitness and health improvements. The railway had very little chance of competing with that, given my health and fitness goals are currently my top priority!

Those discussing people living on credit cards etc, well I can't comment much there. I have a pretty decent bit on my card, thanks to some big adventures in the last 6 months. I know it'll take ages to pay off, but that's a price I'm willing to pay to have had some life-changing adventures. There is a vague plan in place for it, and while I think it will take up to 3 years to clear it will be worth the interest paid. To be fair I'm also managing to build a small amount of savings too, so it's not like I'm in a bad place credit-wise.

I'd also whole-heartedly recommend what someone else said about recording all transactions, I started that some years ago and it makes it a lot easier to stay in the green, as the saying goes. Anyone struggling with money, my advice would be to list all expenditures and income. It sounds so obvious and simple, but in addition to budgeting and sometimes being a bit strict with oneself, it really does help.

As for the Engine House in Highley, I've not been yet so I can't comment fairly on whether it is a good use of income for the SVR. It does feel like it might be a 'nice to have' though, so I'd be looking at the cost of its operation very carefully in the current climate. The focus on running a good quality train service must be a priority, whatever the motive power may be.

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder how much traffic and business the Engine House actually generates?

As for the Engine House in Highley, I've not been yet so I can't comment fairly on whether it is a good use of income for the SVR.

Ultimately the Severn Valley Railway built the Engine House as somewhere secure to keep the engines that are not operational and awaiting their next overhaul. They would need a building of that sort regardless of whether it is an attraction in its own right. Making it into a museum increases its utility and brought in funding.

 

[Techniquest]

Ultimately the Severn Valley Railway built the Engine House as somewhere secure to keep the engines that are not operational and awaiting their next overhaul. They would need a building of that sort regardless of whether it is an attraction in its own right. Making it into a museum increases its utility and brought in funding.

Fair enough, I can't say I knew that. In which case I'd imagine you'd be saving a pittance (in the grand scheme of things anyway) by not having it open to the public. I'll hopefully visit it next time I'm up there.