UK train passengers face loss of free wi-fi

[jon0844]

Wi-Fi was almost certainly more difficult to install on older stock, just as I expect PIS and CCTV systems were, but all new trains would be wired to make it easy to add-in later (but any sensible operator or ROSCO would probably install the whole Wi-Fi kit at the time of production, which they realised part way through the 700 build).

As zwk500 says, the cost is negligible in the grand scheme of things - especially as modern trains will have network connectivity for its own systems and diagnostics. The amount of kit on a modern train is quite unbelievable - just look behind the mirror on a 700 disabled toilet to see loads of electronics!!

 

[Krokodil]

I've just taken a ten minute bus journey. Despite my journey being a fraction of the length of the average rail journey, I went to the bother of connecting to the WiFi and pressing the "Agree & continue" button on the web page that appears. Why? Because in that particular part of town it provides a more reliable signal. For some reason in that area my phone will show four bars and "4G" but nothing works.

So. Arriva, a commercial bus company who have to pay for the cost of installing WiFi out of their own turnover clearly deem it worth the cost, despite the fact that many of the usual reasons people use WiFi (working/streaming) not really being practical on a bus journey.

Yet the railway (operators of long distance trains with both business and leisure travel) are expected to engage in this sort of mindless penny-pinching by people who clearly know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

 

[takno]

It does feel like only the UK rail industry/UK government could this particular mountain out of this molehill.

The story is more or less completely that DfT policy has changed from requiring wireless as part of franchise bids to saying that operators need to make a business case for providing it. It's really more the Times, the Guardian and people contributing to this thread who are making a mountain out of molehill.

"It's only 10k per train and our customer surveys indicate that this will drive 20k of additional revenue" is a business case.

 

[hacman]

4 times £2,100 is still a total cost of c.£10k per car, which is a rounding error in the scheme of a vehicle costing multiple millions. I could understand simply not including it at the start, I could understand not renewing it when contracts came up or whatever, but actively seeking to remove it seems very silly.

You've missed the point there. That is is the cost of just installing it - no operation costs, no maintenance, no administration. It also excludes all the ancillary materials and parts that are required, the actual routing hardware, switches and more. And still totally ignores the fact that the cost of a vehicle and the cost of these other things are funded VERY differently.

Having designed and installed systems like this for a living, when it comes to costs the TOCs really don't care if it is a rounding error or not. They're interested in the price vs the revenue return (direct or otherwise) they'll get from it.

So. Arriva, a commercial bus company who have to pay for the cost of installing WiFi out of their own turnover clearly deem it worth the cost, despite the fact that many of the usual reasons people use WiFi (working/streaming) not really being practical on a bus journey.

Yet the railway (operators of long distance trains with both business and leisure travel) are expected to engage in this sort of mindless penny-pinching by people who clearly know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

Bear in mind also that the costs of installing and operating a passenger WiFi system on a bus are orders of magnitude smaller than in the rail industry. These situations seem similar, but are infact a very poor comparison to eachother.

 

[jon0844]

The buses around here use an Icomera system too, but on a double decker there's likely only one (possibly two) APs. I don't know if the Ticketer machines have their own mobile data connection, or just hook up to the Icomera one, in order to share live tracking data to control and the public?

 

[hacman]

The buses around here use an Icomera system too, but on a double decker there's likely only one (possibly two) APs. I don't know if the Ticketer machines have their own mobile data connection, or just hook up to the Icomera one, in order to share live tracking data to control and the public?

Icomera have different products for the road sector, and the back-end service is different too - so whilst they serve both sectors, the solution can sometimes be quite different.

They made the rather smart move of providing an "all-in-one" unit that was very well suited to road vehicles a few years back, and have lead that sector ever since as a result.

 

[jon0844]

Icomera have different products for the road sector, and the back-end service is different too - so whilst they serve both sectors, the solution can sometimes be quite different.

They made the rather smart move of providing an "all-in-one" unit that was very well suited to road vehicles a few years back, and have lead that sector ever since as a result.

It's been a while since I looked up their products, but it always seemed quite modular (presumably that allows relatively easy upgrades to new Wi-Fi standards or modems/antennas for the external connectivity). I'm sure the hardware is repackaged to fit a bus and without the need to support multiple access points and the necessary traffic management to ensure a consistent service throughout a train (as well as possibly including locally stored media and other features).

I used the Wi-Fi service on two 387s (8 car*) today and the speeds never seemed to go above 2Mbps, despite EE offering multiple carriers of 4G and 5G in many places (with speeds running in excess of 150Mbps). The trains were fairly well loaded but I am not sure how many people were using Wi-Fi obviously.

What I can confirm is that 387s no longer mention any data limit, or that speeds will be reduced after exceeding a set limit. It either means there's no limit anymore OR (as seems likely from the speed) the limit is applied all the time.

* That means each 4 car set has its own system, so more SIMs than an 8 or 12 car 700. If you get a poor service in one unit, I wonder if you'd benefit from moving to the other if less crowded?

 

[AM9]

It's been a while since I looked up their products, but it always seemed quite modular (presumably that allows relatively easy upgrades to new Wi-Fi standards or modems/antennas for the external connectivity). I'm sure the hardware is repackaged to fit a bus and without the need to support multiple access points and the necessary traffic management to ensure a consistent service throughout a train (as well as possibly including locally stored media and other features).

I used the Wi-Fi service on two 387s (8 car*) today and the speeds never seemed to go above 2Mbps, despite EE offering multiple carriers of 4G and 5G in many places (with speeds running in excess of 150Mbps). The trains were fairly well loaded but I am not sure how many people were using Wi-Fi obviously.

What I can confirm is that 387s no longer mention any data limit, or that speeds will be reduced after exceeding a set limit. It either means there's no limit anymore OR (as seems likely from the speed) the limit is applied all the time.

* That means each 4 car set has its own system, so more SIMs than an 8 or 12 car 700. If you get a poor service in one unit, I wonder if you'd benefit from moving to the other if less crowded?

They would all have similar failure rates whether serving 4, 8 or 12 car trains.

 

[tomuk]

I am sure Icomera has been offering 5G connectivity for a while, so I'd be surprised if their kit isn't 802.11ac, and by now I'm sure they'll be offering an .ax system. They sell globally and even if the UK wants to save every penny, there are countries more open minded and competitive with alternative means of transport.

While we continue to use GSM-R which is likely fine for most cases, an LTE version has been in use elsewhere for some time too.

What has GSM-R got to do with on train WiFi? It isn't used to connect the WiFI to the outside world.

 

[jon0844]

My point was that all this talk about old tech doesn't take into consideration that there's a market outside the UK.

 

[thomas_2312]

maybe listen to some music on your mp3 player.

It’s 2023, i have my doubts as to whether many people carry an mp3 player anymore.

 

[zwk500]

It’s 2023, i have my doubts as to whether many people carry an mp3 player anymore.

Most do - it's called a mobile phone. Either save the .mp3s (or whatever format you prefer) directly from you computer or most apps offer a 'download to listen offline' option.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Most do - it's called a mobile phone. Either save the .mp3s (or whatever format you prefer) directly from you computer or most apps offer a 'download to listen offline' option.

You have to pay for the ‘listen offline’ option. Are you suggesting that we disadvantage those who can’t afford the luxuries of music subscription services?

 

[43066]

Most do - it's called a mobile phone. Either save the .mp3s (or whatever format you prefer) directly from you computer or most apps offer a 'download to listen offline' option.

You beat me to it!

You have to pay for the ‘listen offline’ option. Are you suggesting that we disadvantage those who can’t afford the luxuries of music subscription services?

It’s a tenner a month.

And yes absolutely, if the alternative is that the rest of us have to pay for their intransigence/tightness!

 

[Darandio]

You have to pay for the ‘listen offline’ option. Are you suggesting that we disadvantage those who can’t afford the luxuries of music subscription services?

This type of post is getting into parody territory, surely?

 

[Agent_Squash]

This type of post is getting into parody territory, surely?

Not really.

The tabloids are telling me if I cancel these sorts of services, along with not buying a coffee, I’ll be able to afford a house.

We’re in a cost of living crisis. Every penny counts - and being forced to give up little things like this will just make people take the car.

For the record, I have paid the necessary dues to the good folks at Spotify for the downloading music privilege.

 

[Darandio]

Not really.

The tabloids are telling me if I cancel these sorts of services, along with not buying a coffee, I’ll be able to afford a house.

Ah okay. We'd better keep that free onboard wi-fi then, could be another rung on the ladder!

 

[zwk500]

You have to pay for the ‘listen offline’ option. Are you suggesting that we disadvantage those who can’t afford the luxuries of music subscription services?

Depends on the app/service you use. But I'd also let TOCs charge for Wifi, so you'd be disadvantaging them either way.

The tabloids are telling me if I cancel these sorts of services, along with not buying a coffee, I’ll be able to afford a house.

Well the Tabloids are a bunch of lying b******* so I refuse to accept this as a legitimate objection.

In October, the average first-time price for Manchester was £209,000 (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/property/how-much-first-time-buyers-25244663). A 10% deposit is therefore £20,900. If you cancel your Spotfiy subscription you'll be able to afford that in 174 years and 2 months. (Obviously the actual calculations are more complex because there's other subscriptions and then the interest rates on the savings you have while building to the deposit to factor in, but either way a £10 subscription for some music is going to make naff all difference to buying a house).

 

[43066]

The tabloids are telling me if I cancel these sorts of services, along with not buying a coffee, I’ll be able to afford a house.

I think the moral of the story is don’t believe everything you read.

We’re in a cost of living crisis. Every penny counts - and being forced to give up little things like this will just make people take the car.

It won’t. Fares rose around 6% earlier this year, yet passenger numbers are rising.

In October, the average first-time price for Manchester was £209,000

A reminder of how shockingly expensive London and the southeast is!

 

[Agent_Squash]

I think the moral of the story is don’t believe everything you read.

I’m surprised you thought I believed it… but this line is being pushed by the same government who want to get rid of WiFi.

A 6% fare rise with no reduction in service can be swallowed. But if a service is getting worse, people will feel ripped off and move away from rail.

 

[43066]

I’m surprised you thought I believed it… but this line is being pushed by the same government who want to get rid of WiFi.

A 6% fare rise with no reduction in service can be swallowed. But if a service is getting worse, people will feel ripped off and move away from rail.

I suspected it wasn’t 100% serious

Completely agree with the second paragraph - unfortunately the government seem hell bent on playing games at the moment.

I’m just not convinced on train Wi-Fi is a big deal either way in terms of the quality of the offering, though, when it’s already so utterly useless for the most part that it might as well not be there.

 

[zwk500]

A reminder of how shockingly expensive London and the southeast is!

I deliberately didn't go for the London figure to avoid being accused of cherry-picking the worst offender.

I’m just not convinced on train Wi-Fi is a big deal either way in terms of the quality of the offering, though, when it’s already so utterly useless for the most part that it might as well not be there.

I think for journeys of up to about an hour people won't mind, even a bit longer if they're commuters and have a company data plan. However on Intercity journeys I can see it being a selling point given the fact that TOCs do advertise it. It's a tale of many sticks though, and it's not clear between poor performance, strikes, badly presented trains, skimping on the extras, and expensive fares exactly what will be the breaking point for people to just throw in the towel.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

It’s 2023, i have my doubts as to whether many people carry an mp3 player anymore.

Most people are idiots! My dedicated Sansa Clip MP3 player offers far better (and louder) sound quality than any mobile phone I've tried and, unlike mobile phones, doesn't require a WiFi connection or have constant bleeps, notifications and adverts disrupting the music.

 

[43066]

It's a tale of many sticks though, and it's not clear between poor performance, strikes, badly presented trains, skimping on the extras, and expensive fares exactly what will be the breaking point for people to just throw in the towel.

I’ll admit for at least the last decade I’ve always had a very current mobile and and a good Wi-Fi connection at home, fibre based for a few years now, so perhaps I’m just biased against on train Wi-Fi.

As your second paragraph, I’d argue it highlights how there are bigger fish to fry in terms of encouraging passengers onto the railway than this. For all the nonsense pedalled by Shapps etc. it’s pretty clear that the government regards passengers continuing to use the railway as a cast iron certainty, every bit as much as the industry is often accused of doing.

Most people are idiots! My dedicated Sansa Clip MP3 player offers far better (and louder) sound quality than any mobile phone I've tried and, unlike mobile phones, doesn't require a WiFi connection or have constant bleeps, notifications and adverts disrupting the music.

My iPhone 14 pro max does a pretty good job of offline playing, especially mated with the latest AirPods Pro (which really are superlative). It also takes incredible photos, and does pretty much everything very well, with no drama. It’s little heavier than I would like, and I accept apple products are overpriced, but there are good alternatives.

I presume you have a mobile phone that can be used to download music? As such, why on earth would you choose to carry a bulky dedicated MP3 player that looks like the last iPod I had, circa fifteen years ago?!

 

[AM9]

However on Intercity journeys I can see it being a selling point given the fact that TOCs do advertise it.

Once any decision to remove it was taken, they would't advertise it any more.

 

[Mag_seven]

I think we will bring this one to a close now as until such times as there is confirmation that the withdrawal of free wi-fi is actually happening.