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Is there a debate about dual door buses outside the UK?

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Manchester Corporation did have dual-door 'Mancunian' double-deckers that lasted into the SELNEC/GM PTE era. Admittedly they were used on highly trafficked urban corridors with pavements, but I don't recall any special infrastructure provision.
 
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RT4038

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Manchester Corporation did have dual-door 'Mancunian' double-deckers that lasted into the SELNEC/GM PTE era. Admittedly they were used on highly trafficked urban corridors with pavements, but I don't recall any special infrastructure provision.
It may well have been on routes that didn't require much, and that (few) stop positions and shelter changes happened without it being an obvious work. Also remember that 'low floor' wasn't a thing then (nor probably the quantity of parked vehicles and street furniture) , and alighting into the road (and several other practices) was just an inconvenience that passengers had to tolerate. The world has moved on!
 

Bletchleyite

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It may well have been on routes that didn't require much, and that (few) stop positions and shelter changes happened without it being an obvious work. Also remember that 'low floor' wasn't a thing then (nor probably the quantity of parked vehicles and street furniture) , and alighting into the road (and several other practices) was just an inconvenience that passengers had to tolerate. The world has moved on!

Interestingly alighting into the road because the bus either can't (or can't be bothered) to get into the kerb remains the norm across much of the UK. Lining up with the Kassel kerbs is often difficult (e.g. laybys too short to swing in without damaging the nose, as is the case in much of Milton Keynes*), or in London where there mostly aren't laybys anyway old habits of stopping a Routemaster about a foot out seem to die hard!

* It was possible with a short Solo but not with the full size single deckers used on most services now.
 

Deerfold

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Even over in, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, USA, all of their buses have two doors. I can not think of anywhere in those countries that operate one door buses.

Other than the UK and Ireland and South Africa everywhere else puts at least two doors on their buses.

Plenty of smaller places in the US operate single door full size buses. I most recently caught several of the Monroe County Transport Authority's on my last visit in 2019. The link is to a 2020 single door replacement.

 
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JonasB

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Has anyone reading this outside the UK ever considered these issues as "downsides"? The issue of reduced seating is particularly odd because of the British use of double deckers, meaning there are lots of seats upstairs. Dublin was also a single door city, in large part due to union pressure, but now seems to be buying lots of two door double deckers. Brighton have also started to use two door double deckers even though it isn't a huge city.

No. I can't say I've ever thought about it, but the UK tradition of single door buses always baffles me. It really slows down your buses. Yes, you lose a few seats but I doubt it will make a big difference. And while I'm no expert on the subject I don't think the wall makes a huge impact on structural stability. I'm assuming modern buses are pretty modular and the construction looks more or less the same no matter how many doors you order. I've also never heard of a bus failing due to some structural weakness related to the doors. And I can't see how a door would impact driver visibility of the saloon or incident. In other parts of the world, buses with multiple doors have the norm for decades so there is really no need to modify the infrastructure. But it's also important to remember that there is no need to modify the infrastructure in large parts of the UK as well, in urban areas most bus stops I've seen would not have any problems with multiple doors.

In my part of Sweden regular city buses have three sets of doors, bendy buses have three or four. The buses that run outside the city in the country side usually have two sets of doors. And if we look at the larger cities (since that was the question) the situation is mostly the same. But the only single door buses are really small ones, Mercedes Sprinter and similar. And anyone suggesting that the main bus fleet should be converted to single door will probably be laughed at since it would increase travel time a lot!
 

AdamWW

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I suppose among other things it depends on how much you trust people not to get on the middle/back doors without paying.

Fine in systems where you rely on random inspections rather than showing a ticket to the driver of course.
 

Bletchleyite

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I suppose among other things it depends on how much you trust people not to get on the middle/back doors without paying.

Fine in systems where you rely on random inspections rather than showing a ticket to the driver of course.

It doesn't seem to be a major problem in London. It's almost like the rear doors have a force field.

If you don't use them for wheelchair access you can also add further mitigation as e.g. in some places in the US, such as one-way "gates" on the rear door.
 

Deerfold

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It doesn't seem to be a major problem in London. It's almost like the rear doors have a force field.

If you don't use them for wheelchair access you can also add further mitigation as e.g. in some places in the US, such as one-way "gates" on the rear door.
On some routes people regularly board at the rear door.

But it's also important to remember that there is no need to modify the infrastructure in large parts of the UK as well, in urban areas most bus stops I've seen would not have any problems with multiple doors.
In urban areas, the problems tend to be with sawtooth bus stations (and poorly sited street furniture near bus stops).

In rural areas there's more often a problem with a small safe area for boarding or alighting.

In much of the UK, very little thought seems to have gone into siting bus stops. In my local area a surprising number are very near corners, making it dangerous for other vehicles to overtake, and sometimes making it hard to see the bus until the last minute asa waiting passenger.
 

JonasB

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In urban areas, the problems tend to be with sawtooth bus stations (and poorly sited street furniture near bus stops).

Those bus stations might need a bit of rebuilding, but until then it's perfectly possible to just not open the mid door when stopping at the station. And unless the station is midroute it's also possible to use different stops for boarding and alighting, something that is not uncommon in other countries.

In rural areas there's more often a problem with a small safe area for boarding or alighting.

That is not only a problem in the UK, plenty of small bus stops in rural Sweden are just a sign on a pole next to the road. But it still works with buses with many doors. If there is someone waiting for the bus, the driver stops with the front door at that area. If someone on the bus wants to get off, the driver stops with the rear door at that area.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's also possible to not open the rear door and use the PA (something UK buses usually lack but is universal elsewhere) to ask people to
move forward in cases where it wouldn't be safe.
 

johncrossley

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And anyone suggesting that the main bus fleet should be converted to single door will probably be laughed at since it would increase travel time a lot!

However in the UK, outside London, there is little interest from most operators in making journey times as quick as possible. Not only do they just use one door, the ticketing system is also typically slow. Most operators still sell a lot of tickets from the driver which still takes a lot of time even using contactless payment. Even in places were there is tap in tap out contactless, they still sell tickets from the driver at the same price or for not much more, so those operators still sell a lot of tickets from the driver.
 

Deerfold

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Those bus stations might need a bit of rebuilding, but until then it's perfectly possible to just not open the mid door when stopping at the station.
How long until a driver forgets to only open one door and someone's injured getting off the middle door?
And unless the station is midroute it's also possible to use different stops for boarding and alighting, something that is not uncommon in other countries.


That is not only a problem in the UK, plenty of small bus stops in rural Sweden are just a sign on a pole next to the road. But it still works with buses with many doors. If there is someone waiting for the bus, the driver stops with the front door at that area. If someone on the bus wants to get off, the driver stops with the rear door at that area.
Don't both those suggestions lose the time benefit of having two doors (and indeed, sound much slower than having a single door)?

However in the UK, outside London, there is little interest from most operators in making journey times as quick as possible. Not only do they just use one door, the ticketing system is also typically slow. Most operators still sell a lot of tickets from the driver which still takes a lot of time even using contactless payment. Even in places were there is tap in tap out contactless, they still sell tickets from the driver at the same price or for not much more, so those operators still sell a lot of tickets from the driver.
Is this really most operators?

Most in my area are trying to get people to use mobile tickets which are bought off-bus.

And I can't see much time saving on my local routes from that second door - I can't think of more than 2 stops that regularly have people getting on and off at three same stop.
 

JonasB

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How long until a driver forgets to only open one door and someone's injured getting off the middle door?

I've never heard about that happening so I assume the risk is very small. But if you're worried about that you can build a fence where the middle door is.

Don't both those suggestions lose the time benefit of having two doors (and indeed, sound much slower than having a single door)?

Not really as those are small bus stops that are used by maybe a handful of passengers per day at most.
 

johncrossley

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Is this really most operators?

Most in my area are trying to get people to use mobile tickets which are bought off-bus.

Most operators only offer a small discount for using mobile tickets, meaning that plenty of tickets are sold on the bus. I regularly go to Brighton and they are at the forefront of ticketing but they still seem to sell a lot of tickets on the bus.

And I can't see much time saving on my local routes from that second door - I can't think of more than 2 stops that regularly have people getting on and off at three same stop.

If you are talking about a big city operation, as that is the main thrust of this thread, why do you think it is so different in other countries? @JonasB was clearly of the view that bus journeys would be considerably slower if buses only had one door.
 

Deerfold

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I've never heard about that happening so I assume the risk is very small. But if you're worried about that you can build a fence where the middle door is.
At each bus stop?
Not really as those are small bus stops that are used by maybe a handful of passengers per day at most.
I thought you suggested it at bus stations?
 

JonasB

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At each bus stop?

Yes, if you are worried about it. But I really

I thought you suggested it at bus stations?
I see, you meant having different stops for boarding and alighting? That is not used mid route, but on bus stations where routes end and begin. It's not uncommon for a bus to arrive, drop off passengers, drive away to a parking area to be cleaned and return a bit later with a new driver to pick up new passengers.

But the original question was about major cities, and I can't really see it being a problem there. It obviously works even in smaller cities. Here is an image I took in Oxford in 2019. I was a bit surprised to see a bus with a pair of middle doors in the UK so I had to take a photo.
IMG_1740-1.jpg
 

johncrossley

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I suppose among other things it depends on how much you trust people not to get on the middle/back doors without paying.

There are plenty of cities apart from London that use two (or more) doors but require the ticket to be shown to the driver. For example anywhere in the Netherlands (apart from a small number of special routes) and anywhere I've been in the US, including New York and Boston.
 

XAM2175

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Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, and Canberra are all the same - the vast majority of buses have two doors, but all boarding is via the front doors for ticket inspection by the driver. Adelaide and Perth may well be the same, but I can't say for sure.

ACTION in Canberra did implement a policy quite some time ago forbidding the use of the rear doors other than at interchanges (i.e. bus stations) after a bad trap-and-drag incident that IIRC involved a school student, but I don't know if that remains in place and all the new vehicles they've procured since then still have rear doors fitted.

The opposition to using rear doors by British operators is really quite pathetic in my opinion, and - as with several other cases of British "exceptionalism" - continually annoying.
 

WideRanger

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There are plenty of cities apart from London that use two (or more) doors but require the ticket to be shown to the driver. For example anywhere in the Netherlands (apart from a small number of special routes) and anywhere I've been in the US, including New York and Boston.
In Japan, buses often have rear door boarding and front door exit, with payment made on exit (based on a ticket collected from a machine on boarding to demonstrate distance, or a touch in on more modern applications). It sounds weird, but works pretty well, except where everyone wants to get off at the same stop.
 

AdamWW

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In Japan, buses often have rear door boarding and front door exit, with payment made on exit (based on a ticket collected from a machine on boarding to demonstrate distance, or a touch in on more modern applications). It sounds weird, but works pretty well, except where everyone wants to get off at the same stop.

And presumably works best in a country where you can trust most people not to just get off without paying.

It avoids all trouble of trying to describe where you want a ticket to, but does mean that like in a taxi you don't necessarily know what the fare will be until you get off.
 

RT4038

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British buses have generally traditionally only had one entrance/exit, and this originally was at the back of the bus and without doors fitted. There were experiments in having a second door on these buses, but by and large this did not have sufficient advantage in boarding times and lost seating capacity.

In the late 60s/70s, with the advent of one man buses, many urban undertakings ordered dual door vehicles. Rural and peri-urban areas generally only ever had one door buses, and really dual door vehicles were more trouble than they would be worth on those services.

In many places infrastructure was not changed to accommodate the dual door buses (with passengers alighting into the side of bus shelters, muddy grass verges and on to the road into lines of parked cars) which caused complaint from passengers (to both drivers and management), and there were several high profile trapping incidents, injuring, or even killing, passengers, and many many near misses. Drivers were expected to be keeping an eye on the centre doors, and closing them promptly after the last alighting passenger (to avoid the many instances of passengers esp. at school times attempting to board and avoiding payment) whilst collecting fares at the front. I expect overriding is also reduced if the passenger has to pass the driver they have bought a short fared ticket, from a pyschological point of view. Standing passengers/ boarding passengers moving down the bus obscured the view of the centre door mirror, which didn't give the best view anyway. Passengers often came to the front to alight, particularly during the hours of darkness, and many drivers (all of whom probably had had several near misses) would encourage passengers to alight through the front doors. (Oddly, some places were very strict and this rarely happened). Several companies, or depots of companies, had issues of drivers refusing to use the centre doors following the more major incidents involving death or serious injury.

It must be said that at the undertaking that I was employed at 1980-6 they were exclusively (aside from some open rear platform double deckers for the first year) all dual door buses in a town: but the vehicle buying policy of a small batch every year or so had resulted in five different positions and/or mechanisms to open and close the doors. It was hardly surprising that there were many near misses!

Frankly, management in general were ambivalent towards dual doors in most places - none of them wanted the unwelcome publicity of the inevitable incidents (esp. where death and serious injury was concerned) or the insurance premiums to go with them, nor the thought of the fare bilking. Drivers generally preferred to have passengers alighting under their direct view, to avoid the blame of an accident, and of course pointed to the many single door vehicles successfully plying their trade [many of them probably having worked for those companies previously]. Many passengers wanted to be set down by pavement/hard standing, didn't want to get themselves or their shopping/ umbrella etc trapped and appreciated the interaction with the driver on alighting. One also has to remember that at that time all of these vehicles were high floor, especially at the centre, and some of the steps were tall and steep and only observed by the driver through a mirror. The bulk of passengers were not equating dual door buses with faster journey times, but with unpleasant journey experience, if they thought about it at all.

Then came deregulation, and fleets were dispersed, and competitive operations started in, inter alia, the urban areas, using surplus single door buses. Passengers got used to alighting from the front door, and, apart from a few exceptions, dual door buses faded away.

So we are where we are, for historical reasons by and large. Of course there have been technological advances since to mitigate some of the issues, but the debate for dual door was lost 40 years ago.

There is little debate in this country about moving towards dual door buses, the same as there is little debate elsewhere to convert to single door buses, any more than there is debate about converting single to double deck vehicles in Europe or Australia or us to standee single deckers so favoured elsewhere. In Europe dual door buses have always been the norm (at least for the last 50+ years) and their roadside infrastructure, and roadside car parking will have been built or adapted for this. Citing that dual buses work in country X or Y does not really cut it - we are not X or Y , don't have the history of X or Y, and don't have the infrastructure either. Again, citing some stops or facilities as being suitable here does not constitute all, and mixing 'alight at the front' or 'alight at the middle' on the same route, or even the same area is going to be confusing to passengers and staff and just not going to produce the sort of slick operation so desired.

Conversion of urban services would need to be done properly all or nothing; it is hard to see where the impetus is going to come from at present.
 
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johncrossley

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If indeed dual door buses are as important to maintain fast journey times as most people on this thread believe, the use of single door buses severely hinders the the ability of the bus as a tool against urban congestion. I wonder if the mayor of Greater Manchester is aware of the issue?
 

Deerfold

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If indeed dual door buses are as important to maintain fast journey times as most people on this thread believe, the use of single door buses severely hinders the the ability of the bus as a tool against urban congestion. I wonder if the mayor of Greater Manchester is aware of the issue?

Do most people on this thread believe that?

I'm sure you could ask GMPTE about it.
 

DanielB

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In many places infrastructure was not changed to accommodate the dual door buses (with passengers alighting into the side of bus shelters, muddy grass verges and on to the road into lines of parked cars) which caused complaint from passengers (to both drivers and management), and there were several high profile trapping incidents, injuring, or even killing, passengers, and many many near misses.
Exaggerating is an art too... Just an example: this is a regularly used stop only served by dual door buses. Never heard anyone complain about it and it hasn't resulted in any accident.
 

Deerfold

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Exaggerating is an art too... Just an example: this is a regularly used stop only served by dual door buses. Never heard anyone complain about it and it hasn't resulted in any accident.

It doesn't look particularly risky.

Certainly it seems to be the prevailing view by those outside the UK.

That's not what I questioned. There are clearly benefits on some routes - I'm not against them, myself, I'm just aware how much change local bus stations to me would make for limited benefits except on a couple of routes.
 
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Bletchleyite

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If indeed dual door buses are as important to maintain fast journey times as most people on this thread believe, the use of single door buses severely hinders the the ability of the bus as a tool against urban congestion. I wonder if the mayor of Greater Manchester is aware of the issue?

I believe it with regard to cross city services. Less so for suburb to bus station ones.

It speeds things up demonstrably where there is often boarding and alighting at the same stop. If there isn't it makes the square root of no difference.

This is why I disagree with the poster above who says it's all or nothing - it isn't - an appropriate vehicle should be used for the route. For a rural villages-to-market-town-bus-station service, it's something like a single door Solo. For Oxford/Wilmslow Road in Manchester, it's a three door artic or a four-door double artic (or a tram), as demonstrated by what Hamburger Hochbahn AG use on the near identical route in Hamburg. Plenty of routes sit between and would suit a dual door decker.
 

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That's not what I questioned. There are clearly benefits on some routes - I'm not against them, myself, I'm just aware how much change local bus stations to me would make for limited benefits except on a couple of routes.

Bus stations are a distraction here. We are talking about busy bus routes in major cities which might not even pass through a bus station. There are no bus stations on the Manchester 192 bus route, for example.
 

Deerfold

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Bus stations are a distraction here. We are talking about busy bus routes in major cities which might not even pass through a bus station. There are no bus stations on the Manchester 192 bus route, for example.

And that might be a good route for them. Although it does start at a bus station, it's not of a saw tooth design. I'd probably suggest it'd be best with 3-doored bendibuses or trams.
 

Bletchleyite

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And that might be a good route for them. Although it does start at a bus station, it's not of a saw tooth design.

And even if it was, as long as you stuck with the front door being used for wheelchairs, prams etc it doesn't matter that you only used the front door at the bus station, the one* place where you've got ages as the service generally terminates there.

I don't believe any of the central Manchester bus stations are of a sawtooth design, though, so Oxford Road services are fine too. New Stockport might be, but the 42 isn't busy by the time it gets there.

* There are odd cases of sawtooth bus stations being visited en route rather than as a terminus e.g. Bletchley on the 5/6, but there aren't that many, in part because there aren't many sawtooth bus stations to start with, and many of them might have a limited future life anyway - I do wonder how long it'll be before Bletchley is developed into flats, the small number of routes that use it don't justify a 10 bay sawtooth bus station, three or four stops on the road would suffice and quite possibly be safer, and in the case of the 5/6 would speed up northbound working as they could be on the other side.
 
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