To what extent is an operator entitled to delay your exit from a station?

[Turtle]

This occurs somewhat frequently at concerts where the artist has decided they're too special for people to take photos of and has therefore required phones and devices to be locked in bags which are secured with magnetic locks similar in nature to supermarket/department store security systems, there are then considerable queues in the way out as nearly everyone must wait for the bag to be released.

But none of these scenarios are comparable to an airport. The train journey is only a minor (hopefully) component of a much longer voyage incorporating strict deadlines which cannot be missed.

 

[island]

But none of these scenarios are comparable to an airport. The train journey is only a minor (hopefully) component of a much longer voyage incorporating strict deadlines which cannot be missed.

Which is why it is advised to allow extra time when taking the train to the airport.

 

[Scott1]

The solution is of course for more people in this country to refuse to participate in the charade, and simply exit anyway. The company has had ample time to protect its revenue and is going for low hanging fruit anyway at the airport - something The procedures will soon change to reflect the new reality.

Good luck penning in 1,000 French people for 20 minutes at an airport station. You'd soon find out how much custom and practice depends on people's consent.

The diffrence here being that most people belive a queue is fair and reasonable as long as it is not more than say 5 minutes. It's always intresting when these operations are run that there's a mixture of people who complain about their time being wasted, compliment that checks are being carried out, or (most people) just say morning and move on with their day.

In regards to setting a time limit I think 5 mins is reasonable (assuming your tickets fine). Anything above that and I'd say there's a service issue, though I think it's safe to say accusations of false impresement for twenty minutes are amusing

I do wonder when someone gets really stressed and angry about having to wait for a couple of minutes how this reflects on their happiness in general. If they get upset for every small inconvenience does it have an impact on their overall wellbeing.

 

[All Line Rover]

Which is why it is advised to allow extra time when taking the train to the airport.

Advised by whom? Where on any of these airport TOCs' websites is there any suggestion of lengthy queues to leave the airport station?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Can someone explain more clearly about how the ‘barrier(s)’ at Stansted Airport station are set up?

The National Rail details for the station explicitly state that it has NO barriers or gates.

The map/plan shows one ramp, one bank of escalators and one set of lifts at separate points along the ‘island’, all effectively disgorging into the airport complex above. The is a distinct and further ‘entrance’ shown at the ‘buffer end’. No barriers indicated, obviously.

So I am assuming that there was some sort of special revenue check with Tensabarriers or similar to funnel arriving train passengers. Then the number of ‘dodgy’ passengers far exceeded the capability of the ‘fraud squad’ to deal with all the enforcement/penalty/excess issues to process.

I.e., it wasn’t a normal day.

Or am I imagining it completely wrong? Happy to be enlightened further.

 

[AlterEgo]

The diffrence here being that most people belive a queue is fair and reasonable as long as it is not more than say 5 minutes. It's always intresting when these operations are run that there's a mixture of people who complain about their time being wasted, compliment that checks are being carried out, or (most people) just say morning and move on with their day.

Airport checks are particularly cringeworthy because they go for low hanging fruit. People who are time-pressed and cannot hang around to argue the toss, and foreigners who are more likely to have made a mistake - and who are unfamiliar with their rights.

I've no issue with checks prior to boarding as long as they're quick - it's much better to spot revenue issues before travel than after. But the Stansted ones can be a pain and I know exactly the sort of situation @All Line Rover describes.

 

[island]

Advised by whom?

Every airline and airport website I have ever seen.

Where on any of these airport TOCs' websites is there any suggestion of lengthy queues to leave the airport station?

I did not say there was. Do not put words into my mouth.

 

[156421]

We're not talking about 30 seconds, we're talking about 20 mins.

I also honestly can't think of any similar situation in any other industry. In particular, we're talking about getting out, not getting in. So an equivalent would have to be something like a concert promotor making you queue in a theatre after the concert while they check people's tickets and bags in order to leave.

And we're not talking about something like a crush getting out of a stadium where the number of people wanting to leave at the same time will necessarily cause an unavoidable delay, but a situation where the train operator has intentionally caused a needless delay.

The closest might be a delay at border control, but again if you don't like it then you have the (theoretical at least) option to turn round and decide to not enter the country.

The way things are going with these increasingly frequent overcrowdings on the way out of stations, not to mention similar on the way in at EUS/STP due to not releasing platform numbers until a couple of minutes before departure, it's only a matter of time before we see a crush/stampede.

 

[All Line Rover]

Every airline and airport website I have ever seen.

I did not say there was. Do not put words into my mouth.

This is a rail forum. We are discussing rail operators in this thread, not airlines. Airlines advise that passengers need plenty of time to navigate an airport, not that they need plenty of time simply to exit a rail station in order to enter an airport. The potential for delays during the rail journey could be a concern, but is not the subject of this thread.

For what it is worth, I can add that any time I have encountered a lengthy queue at an airport that ran the risk of me missing my flight, raising this issue with airport staff elicited a polite and favourable response where I was moved to the front of the queue. Not the sort of sensible behaviour I would expect of rail staff.

I.e., it wasn’t a normal day.

Or am I imagining it completely wrong? Happy to be enlightened further.

No, it's always like that. Just that on the day in question, the railcard app wasn't working properly so I was apparently expected to waste even more of my time. No chance.

I do wonder when someone gets really stressed and angry about having to wait for a couple of minutes how this reflects on their happiness in general. If they get upset for every small inconvenience does it have an impact on their overall wellbeing.

Depends on the context. If you run the risk of missing a flight, you are more likely to be stressed. If you arrive at Moor Street station at 08.45 for a meeting in a nearby office at 09.00, and there is a 15 minute wait to exit the station, you are more likely to be stressed.

All the more reason for train companies to focus on pre-departure ticket checks instead of post-arrival ticket checks. You rarely see grossly excessive queues with the former. I wonder why. Perhaps because long delays will affect the train's departure time, inconveniencing the train operator instead of just inconveniencing passengers.

 

[cuccir]

We're not talking about 30 seconds, we're talking about 20 mins.

Not having used Stansted regularly: what sort of delay are we talking about as typical here? Is 20 minutes regular? The general weekly maximum? The max it has been at peak time on the first day of the School holidays? How often is it longer than 5 minutes?

 

[Annetts key]

You would be potentially liable to prosecution for breach of byelaws 1 (2), 9 (2), and/or 18 (2) if you failed to queue properly/pass through the ticket check properly/show your ticket.

Question, which takes precedence, the national laws of the land or byelaws? It’s possible to claim against the police for false imprisonment (around £1,000 for the first hour for example).

 

[island]

Question, which takes precedence, the national laws of the land or byelaws? It’s possible to claim against the police for false imprisonment (around £1,000 for the first hour for example).

"False imprisonment" occurs far less than you think and damages, where awarded, are not at a fixed amount per hour.

 

[sheff1]

Quite right that they're scanning. Quite a lot of fraud is stopped simply by recording the entry/exit.


Are they using phone cameras or a proper reader?

I don't know what they are using. What is clear though is throughput at the manual check exit is slower than at the automatic ticket barriers when people present e-tickets. If I was using an e-ticket myself (very unlikely) I would probably go across the footbridge and exit via the barriers at all bar the quietest times

 

[bob007]

Rail forum hyperbole alert!
Are you the same with any others areas / industries where large crowds of people may have to queue to enter / exit or is it just the railway you seem to have a beef with?

Presumably you’ve never had to queue for more than 30 seconds anywhere else other than a railway station.

Nice twisting of facts. We’re not talking 30 seconds now are we.

 

[gingerheid]

Can someone explain more clearly about how the ‘barrier(s)’ at Stansted Airport station are set up?

The National Rail details for the station explicitly state that it has NO barriers or gates.

The map/plan shows one ramp, one bank of escalators and one set of lifts at separate points along the ‘island’, all effectively disgorging into the airport complex above. The is a distinct and further ‘entrance’ shown at the ‘buffer end’. No barriers indicated, obviously.

So I am assuming that there was some sort of special revenue check with Tensabarriers or similar to funnel arriving train passengers. Then the number of ‘dodgy’ passengers far exceeded the capability of the ‘fraud squad’ to deal with all the enforcement/penalty/excess issues to process.

I.e., it wasn’t a normal day.

Or am I imagining it completely wrong? Happy to be enlightened further.

There is a temporary set up that is there permanently, the nature of which seems to vary according to the staffing levels on the day.

There is a barrier across the bottom of the SW ramp, a small barrier around the SW escalators, and a large barrier enclosing the NE ramp, escalators (which I had never noticed until I looked at the map), lifts & ticket machines from the platforms.

On the day I arrived the ramp at the north eastern end of the station was surrounded by a massive crush of utter chaos, so I walked past the escalators (two staff presiding over a slightly less huge but still chaotic crush) towards the ramp at the bay end (one member of staff allowing entries but rather unneccessarily rudely telling people people attempting to exit "JOIN THE QUEUE!!!" and pointing to the escalators.

Not having used Stansted regularly: what sort of delay are we talking about as typical here? Is 20 minutes regular? The general weekly maximum? The max it has been at peak time on the first day of the School holidays? How often is it longer than 5 minutes?

No idea. The first time it was a bit messy but nothing you could complain about. The second time this happened, and the next time I used the coach. I won't always be able to use the coach, but I certainly will when I can. I didn't mention it at the time because I assumed I'd just been unlucky, but then in the other thread I saw other people complaining about it having happened (and in the context it must have been much more recent), so it must have been happening on occasions over at least the last 6 weeks.

 

[Horizon22]

All the more reason for train companies to focus on pre-departure ticket checks instead of post-arrival ticket checks. You rarely see grossly excessive queues with the former. I wonder why. Perhaps because long delays will affect the train's departure time, inconveniencing the train operator instead of just inconveniencing passengers.

It’s either that or a) Contactless installation (likely to come with project oval), b) installation of gatelines (as per item A), or c) more on-board checks (not as common compared to in Europe).

We tend not to do pre-departure ticket checks in this country except when forced (e.g. gatelines)

Delays also won’t be helped by arrivals in quick succession too which might be the case at certain times on the hour at Stansted?

 

[Annetts key]

"False imprisonment" occurs far less than you think and damages, where awarded, are not at a fixed amount per hour.

I never said how often I think it occurs. And I never explicitly said that that any damages were a fixed amount. Damages are likely to be determined on a case by case basis.
You also never answered my question.
So are your going to answer my question or are you going to avoid answering it?

 

[James Finch]

Given that Stansted Airport is Britain's second busiest airport*, and that it only operates at around 60% capacity, it would be expected that it would have a substantial ticket checking system - I don't even think it has smartcard readers! I would expect this to be improved with Project Oval (assuming it comes out this far).

As someone who lives in the area, I assume that part of the problem with the ticket system (and the overall service in general) is that it is in an extremely rural area for a London airport (it's equidistant between London and Cambridge, the largest nearby settlement is Bishop's Stortford with a population of ~40k), and it is London's only main station not on a "traditional" quad-track main line (2 fast, 2 slow), and as such it (shockingly) lacks overall facilities.

I've only ever found ticket checking onboard SX services to be during the morning peak into London.


*According to last year's data. It has had a very good post-covid recovery, and I know pre-covid Gatwick (and possibly East Midlands) is usually higher

 

[gingerheid]

It’s either that or a) Contactless installation (likely to come with project oval), b) installation of gatelines (as per item A), or c) more on-board checks (not as common compared to in Europe).

We tend not to do pre-departure ticket checks in this country except when forced (e.g. gatelines)

Delays also won’t be helped by arrivals in quick succession too which might be the case at certain times on the hour at Stansted?

The station layout is going to make gatelines tricky. There are 5 entrances and exits in three distinct locations, all of which are directly on the platforms, and all of which are accessed from heaven knows how many separate points at different locations on two levels above.

 

[Dr Hoo]

There is a temporary set up that is there permanently, the nature of which seems to vary according to the staffing levels on the day.

There is a barrier across the bottom of the SW ramp, a small barrier around the SW escalators, and a large barrier enclosing the NE ramp, escalators (which I had never noticed until I looked at the map), lifts & ticket machines from the platforms.

On the day I arrived the ramp at the north eastern end of the station was surrounded by a massive crush of utter chaos, so I walked past the escalators (two staff presiding over a slightly less huge but still chaotic crush) towards the ramp at the bay end (one member of staff allowing entries but rather unneccessarily rudely telling people people attempting to exit "JOIN THE QUEUE!!!" and pointing to the escalators.

Thank you for that clear detail.

Evidently, National Rail needs to update the station information details for Stansted Airport. (I realise that this won't in itself make much difference to the queues. Nevertheless, the thought did cross my mind that people might check the station details, see that it has "No barriers" and think, 'Yay, just like (say) Sheffield (my nearest important station), I won't bother with buying a ticket'!)

 

[43066]

Question, which takes precedence, the national laws of the land or byelaws? It’s possible to claim against the police for false imprisonment (around £1,000 for the first hour for example).

It’s highly unlikely to be false imprisonment because you could physically escape by simply pushing through ticket barriers etc.

(Not that I’m suggesting what’s being described it right/acceptable - albeit it depends on how long the queues really are).

 

[James Finch]

The station layout is going to make gatelines tricky. There are 5 entrances and exits in three distinct locations, all of which are directly on the platforms, and all of which are accessed from heaven knows how many separate points at different locations on two levels above.

I've never seen any of the escalators be used.

I can see the whole layout be heavily modified in the future - adding more platforms, consolidating the entrance/exits, and a 2nd tunnel to connect it to WAML. I believe it was in the preliminary stages of being explored pre-covid, as the single track tunnel significantly hampers the maximum capacity (which was at its limit) that can use the station.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

@All Line Rover
It felt like 20 minutes or it was properly timed as 20 minutes?

If the latter, I would have found any peaceful means to leave the area much before and I admire your patience!

The solution is of course for more people in this country to refuse to participate in the charade, and simply exit anyway. The company has had ample time to protect its revenue and is going for low hanging fruit anyway at the airport - something The procedures will soon change to reflect the new reality.

Good luck penning in 1,000 French people for 20 minutes at an airport station. You'd soon find out how much custom and practice depends on people's consent.

Very good point. I think a group of students could easily start chanting something that would encourage the whole queue to just ignore the ticket checkers and exit.

 

[All Line Rover]

@All Line Rover
It felt like 20 minutes or it was properly timed as 20 minutes?

I didn't check to see if the train had arrived exactly on time, but more than 20 minutes had elapsed after its scheduled arrival time by the time I entered the airport. (The airport is directly above the station.)

 

[Feuillesmortes]

Please see pictures of queue and escalators at Stansted Airport. Courtesy of RobertDee1 and _Smytheson on twitter.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Given that Stansted Airport is Britain's second busiest airport*, and that it only operates at around 60% capacity, it would be expected that it would have a substantial ticket checking system - I don't even think it has smartcard readers! I would expect this to be improved with Project Oval (assuming it comes out this far).

As someone who lives in the area, I assume that part of the problem with the ticket system (and the overall service in general) is that it is in an extremely rural area for a London airport (it's equidistant between London and Cambridge, the largest nearby settlement is Bishop's Stortford with a population of ~40k), and it is London's only main station not on a "traditional" quad-track main line (2 fast, 2 slow), and as such it (shockingly) lacks overall facilities.

I've only ever found ticket checking onboard SX services to be during the morning peak into London.


*According to last year's data. It has had a very good post-covid recovery, and I know pre-covid Gatwick (and possibly East Midlands) is usually higher

Just for clarity last year's data means passenger numbers for 2021 when the airline industry was only just starting to recover from Covid. The numbers for 2022 show that things are much nearer the long-term norms with the order of busiest airports being Heathrow, Gatwick, Manchester, Stansted, Luton. Of course all numbers were much higher in 2022 so those responsible for the issues at Stansted really do need to get their fingers out and stop this nonsense.

 

[Mojo]

I’ve only used Stansted Airport station on one occasion, in November last year. I had about a ten minute wait to leave the station because of ticket checks. At the time I noticed the rather unusual arrangement whereby the staff checking tickets at the exit, if they needed to issue a Penalty fare or sell a ticket, held up the queue to undertake this activity, whereas typically elsewhere staff would remain checking tickets and send staff over to a colleague, a desk or an excess fares window.

 

[bramling]

Thoughts coming to me after reading https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...es-and-railcard-app-not-working.250089/page-3

Greater Anglia are certainly failing the attitude test at Stansted Airport just at the moment - exits blocked off, signs don't match the exits in use, and long long queues to speak to unnecessarily surly staff who make no secret of hating the world.

I was wondering - to what extent is a train operator allowed to hinder your exit from the station? If you're not coming from London the queue to get out the station is also statistically disproportionate to the length of the journey you've made. For example the waiting time may exceed double the travel time from Bishop's Stortford, and may mean that the overall journey from Bishop's Stortford becomes slower than a bus journey would have been.

I get that they have a right to check tickets, but the statistical majority of the farce going on at Stansted Airport station is GA preventing you from leaving the station while not checking your ticket.

They're really doing a lot to try and make the bus / coach seem more desirable, even before taking into account the fact that their (and XC's) train service provision doesn't match the fact that the airport is as busy as it ever was.

From a byelaw point of view, they can delay you as long as they like. It’s just another example of the industry seemingly doing all it can to alienate users.

 

[jdp30]

Please see pictures of queue and escalators at Stansted Airport. Courtesy of RobertDee1 and _Smytheson on twitter.View attachment 137413 View attachment 137414

That's crazy - Are they only checking 2 people at a time?

 

[Silenos]

Greater Anglia are certainly failing the attitude test at Stansted Airport just at the moment - exits blocked off, signs don't match the exits in use, and long long queues to speak to unnecessarily surly staff who make no secret of hating the world.

To be fair, given that Stansted Airport station is a grim, cold, echoey concrete box with virtually no natural light, no facilities, and no discernible architectural merit, it’s hardly surprising that GA staff forced to spend extended periods in such an environment might become a bit surly. I find it depressing enough to pass through that (in combination with the poor rail connections, admittedly) I often prefer to go from Kings Lynn all the way down to Gatwick for my work trips to Copenhagen, rather than use the much nearer Stansted.

That said, the issues with their ticket checking are ridiculous - they insisted on checking my e-ticket when entering the station from the airport as well, and it.was extraordinarily slow. Especially pointless as XC always check tickets on the train, so those of us heading towards Cambridge, Ely or Norwich get checked twice