To what extent is an operator entitled to delay your exit from a station?

[AlterEgo]

That's crazy - Are they only checking 2 people at a time?

Yes, it is very slow.

Normally I would be disapproving of anyone deciding to just walk off but the arrangement at Stansted is awful.

Regrettably I have a direct flight to Ancona booked for August and am unavoidably using the airport, and the train to get there, but I try to avoid it otherwise at all costs.

 

[Turtle]

Which is why it is advised to allow extra time when taking the train to the airport.

Quite. I try to allow 3 hours but events happen. To be unavoidably delayed for whatever reason and then be trapped in a log jam of an exit queue at the airport station would raise anyone's blood pressure.

 

[jayah]

Given that Stansted Airport is Britain's second busiest airport*, and that it only operates at around 60% capacity, it would be expected that it would have a substantial ticket checking system - I don't even think it has smartcard readers! I would expect this to be improved with Project Oval (assuming it comes out this far).

As someone who lives in the area, I assume that part of the problem with the ticket system (and the overall service in general) is that it is in an extremely rural area for a London airport (it's equidistant between London and Cambridge, the largest nearby settlement is Bishop's Stortford with a population of ~40k), and it is London's only main station not on a "traditional" quad-track main line (2 fast, 2 slow), and as such it (shockingly) lacks overall facilities.

I've only ever found ticket checking onboard SX services to be during the morning peak into London.


*According to last year's data. It has had a very good post-covid recovery, and I know pre-covid Gatwick (and possibly East Midlands) is usually higher

The biggest problem is that the Stansted Express is running at half of its pre COVID frequency for most of the week.

The air passengers numbers are volatile, hitting 24m in 2007 & 2016 and not unsurprisingly breached this at nearly 26m last year.

The new 12 car units usually handle this fine, but the Heath Robinson gateline arrangements and even the available standing space on the platforms do not.

 

[Silenos]

Quite. I try to allow 3 hours but events happen. To be unavoidably delayed for whatever reason and then be trapped in a log jam of an exit queue at the airport station would raise anyone's blood pressure.

Especially if the delay is caused by problems with the trains - it would be adding insult to injury.

 

[robbeech]

At the time I noticed the rather unusual arrangement whereby the staff checking tickets at the exit, if they needed to issue a Penalty fare or sell a ticket, held up the queue to undertake this activity, whereas typically elsewhere staff would remain checking tickets and send staff over to a colleague, a desk or an excess fares window.

You’d have to have an IQ starting with a decimal point to consider this arrangement remotely acceptable. But, the railway.

A few people in this thread have questioned why they do the checks on arrival rather than at departure. Several people have offered suggestions based on not wanting to delay trains as that costs money but I’d like to throw into the equation the potential revenue generation.

With the exception of complications being in a compulsory ticket area a person who has a ticket checked before boarding a train cannot be prosecuted for boarding a train without a valid ticket or intent to evade a fare so there’s little to no merit in preventing passengers committing offences. On arrival a passenger has made the journey so if they do not have a ticket it’s a tidy little earner for the operator. What IS clear is they have no interest in customer service which is increasingly the norm.

 

[sheff1]

Very good point. I think a group of students could easily start chanting something that would encourage the whole queue to just ignore the ticket checkers and exit.

Indeed. It is very easy for a quite small group to start a rebellion which many more, who would not start anything on their own, quickly join when they see others doing likewise.

 

[Signal Head]

Quite right that they're scanning. Quite a lot of fraud is stopped simply by recording the entry/exit.


Are they using phone cameras or a proper reader?

Readers I think.

I passed through the other week, for the first time in quite a while. The exit from platforms 10 & 11 had two people checking. The door at platform 11 was being reserved for entry, and even though there were barely any people coming through, anyone heading that way off the train, or deciding the growing exit scrum was a bit much, was being firmly redirected towards it.

I had nearly reached the front and could see just how slowly the scanning was going, with some passengers' phones taking three or four attempts, at which point one of the staff was distracted by a passenger with a query. At this point the person directly in front of me had clearly had enough, maybe they had a connection, waved their ticket in the direction of the staff member and walked through. I followed suit, and I suspect others behind me did the same.

 

[142blue]

If be challenging this on grounds of safety.

I've worked barriers in a previous job and there are lines that if the crowds get to that point you plunge open the gates as it's deemed unsafe. Be good to see the station risk assessment

 

[yorkie]

If be challenging this on grounds of safety.

I've worked barriers in a previous job and there are lines that if the crowds get to that point you plunge open the gates as it's deemed unsafe. Be good to see the station risk assessment

Does anyone know the best way to report such safety concerns?

It would be good if Greater Anglia can be reprimanded for this.

The main problem with Stansted Airport (when abbreviated to Stansted one generally means Stansted Mountfitchet, the town from which the airport gets its name) is that there are no barriers. Not some, not a few, none. As such, staff ticket checking is mandatory.

Can you clarify what you mean by "mandatory" and is there any particular source which mentions this?

 

[WestAnglian]

No it's not.

And for most of the terminal/station's existence there was no checking when entering/leaving the platforms.

 

[norbitonflyer]

As I observed at Wimbledon, where such kettling is commonplace, they are more keen on ensuring I've paid for the service, than that they provide the service I've paid for.
(The minimum connection time shown in the GB timetable for Wimbledon is six minutes - when the Revenue Men are out in force it can take longer than that just to leave platform 5, let alone walk over to platform 9)

 

[duncanp]

As I observed at Wimbledon, where such kettling is commonplace, they are more keen on ensuring I've paid for the service, than that they provide the service I've paid for.

I think this sums it up very well.

If the Stansted Express was to be increased to every 15 minutes, it would spread the load of passengers out more evenly. (Yes, I know there is a fat chance of this happening any time soon)

I dread to think what it will be like come the peak summer season.

 

[MattRat]

Sounds like Stansted is stuck in the time period before they invented gate lines.....

 

[Horizon22]

Interestingly, GA are currently hiring more Revenue Protection Officers with a depot of Stansted (doesn't mean they are always there, they could be roaming etc.) so evidently they have a base there to conduct operations. In a hopeful world, this could be an increase to have more than just 2 people doing checks. Salary £27K.

Transport UK: Revenue Protection Officer - Customer Services ~ Revenue Team -

apply.abellio.com

 

[156421]

Interestingly, GA are currently hiring more Revenue Protection Officers with a depot of Stansted (doesn't mean they are always there, they could be roaming etc.) so evidently they have a base there to conduct operations. In a hopeful world, this could be an increase to have more than just 2 people doing checks. Salary £27K.

Transport UK: Revenue Protection Officer - Customer Services ~ Revenue Team -

apply.abellio.com

Will take months to go through the interviews and onboarding and training and such

 

[jdp30]

Looks like there's more than enough room to install barriers where they're doing those checks? Surely cheaper long-term than the 6 people standing around - You'll see less staff standing around the gateline at King's Cross during morning rush hour than that!

 

[Deepgreen]

You would be potentially liable to prosecution for breach of byelaws 1 (2), 9 (2), and/or 18 (2) if you failed to queue properly/pass through the ticket check properly/show your ticket.

In the unlikely event an exit queue resulted in the relevant threshold for DelayRepay you could lodge a claim, though I doubt it would be accepted, at first instance anyway.

It would be fun to see a TOC bringing a case against a passenger for not queueing to show their ticket, rather than not HAVING one!

Rail forum hyperbole alert!
Are you the same with any others areas / industries where large crowds of people may have to queue to enter / exit or is it just the railway you seem to have a beef with?

Presumably you’ve never had to queue for more than 30 seconds anywhere else other than a railway station.

I disagree - 20 minutes (not 30 seconds) is a ridiculously long time to have to wait to get out of a railway station, essentially owing to poor staffing/management. In extreme situations (a concert crowd, for example) it can be expected, but not a UK station where large numbers of passengers are easily predictable.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Given the reliability of the barriers in Norwich.. i.e. I got off a train yesterday and not one of the e-tickets scanned judging by the poor guy trying to let people out I suggest manual checks might actually be quicker.

It would be interesting (sorry my job is in IT) as why they were ok at Liverpool Street but not reading at Norwich.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Given the reliability of the barriers in Norwich.. i.e. I got off a train yesterday and not one of the e-tickets scanned judging by the poor guy trying to let people out I suggest manual checks might actually be quicker.

It would be interesting (sorry my job is in IT) as why they were ok at Liverpool Street but not reading at Norwich.

Was your e-ticket to Norwich? Any accompanying railcard? Seems strange, particularly if no railcard discount claimed, and no railcard needed to be shown.

 

[43066]

If the Stansted Express was to be increased to every 15 minutes, it would spread the load of passengers out more evenly. (Yes, I know there is a fat chance of this happening any time soon)

I dread to think what it will be like come the peak summer season.

If there were more passengers they’d be less likely to do it!

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Was your e-ticket to Norwich? Any accompanying railcard? Seems strange, particularly if no railcard discount claimed, and no railcard needed to be shown.

It was just a standard anytime return to Norwich... But it seemed the barriers weren't reading any of them (obviously I don't know what tickets the others on the train had).

 

[fandroid]

Has anyone who has been personally affected complained to Stansted Airport (or even to GA) yet? A complaint to a well-known travel journalist like Simon Calder might be a good ploy too. Even an email to Barry Doe of Rail or just letters to the editors of any railway journal. Us all saying it's disgraceful to each other allows us the satisfaction of a grumble but won't eliminate those queues

 

[rg177]

If be challenging this on grounds of safety.

I've worked barriers in a previous job and there are lines that if the crowds get to that point you plunge open the gates as it's deemed unsafe. Be good to see the station risk assessment

Yep, I've worked at a station that was temporarily a terminus and would get flooded with people. The done thing was to step back and open the gates as you'd rather have a safe station than have PFNs in the book but multiple safety incidents too.

I've been held up extremely late at night at Stansted before (ca. 23:45) by staff individually umming and ahhing over tickets at an utterly glacial pace. Surely there's a better way to do it.

The posters they have at Stansted boasting about how many PFNs they've issued to Oyster and contactless users erroneously turning up suggests they're quite happy to have the current arrangement.

I used Stansted on Friday of last week and so happened to be at the front near the buffers, having sailed past the usual blockade. I went for the front exit to the sight of no staff and no checks but heard some shouting distantly behind. Someone had evidently realised people were leaving unchallenged.

 

[yorkie]

Rail forum hyperbole alert!
Are you the same with any others areas / industries where large crowds of people may have to queue to enter / exit or is it just the railway you seem to have a beef with?

Presumably you’ve never had to queue for more than 30 seconds anywhere else other than a railway station.

30 seconds?

Have you seen the size of the queues at Stanted on Sunday afternoons? Cleary not, given your post!

I was there last Sunday; it looked absolutely horrendous. Fortunately for me, I was arriving from a plane, rather than departing. It wasn't an orderly queue, it was a very large crowd of people from three recently arrived trains.

Has anyone who has been personally affected complained to Stansted Airport (or even to GA) yet? A complaint to a well-known travel journalist like Simon Calder might be a good ploy too. Even an email to Barry Doe of Rail or just letters to the editors of any railway journal. Us all saying it's disgraceful to each other allows us the satisfaction of a grumble but won't eliminate those queues

It's well worth doing those things, but this forum is well read by railway managers and bodies such as ORR, RAIB, DfT etc. as well as journalists.

Not that anyone who is in a position to do anything about it will care, but that applies to however this is raised really!

 

[Scott1]

Given the reliability of the barriers in Norwich.. i.e. I got off a train yesterday and not one of the e-tickets scanned judging by the poor guy trying to let people out I suggest manual checks might actually be quicker.

It would be interesting (sorry my job is in IT) as why they were ok at Liverpool Street but not reading at Norwich.

Not sure about Norwich but I know some gateline scanners failed yesterday because a back office serve failed. The barcode tickets servers are separate to the ITSO and magnetic tickets, some they will keep working while barcode ones won't.

 

[fandroid]

Not sure about Norwich but I know some gateline scanners failed yesterday because a back office serve failed. The QR code tickets servers are separate to the ITSO and magnetic tickets, some they will keep working while QR codes won't.

All scanners taped off at Basingstoke yesterday at around 12 noon. Not at all normal

While GA may be patting themselves on the back for catching all that "fraud" at Stansted Airport, it's 99% certain that those caught are not fraudsters at all but are people who have made a genuine mistake. Only airport workers are going to be regular users of the trains to the airport. The rest are people going on trips abroad no more than once or twice a year, and those trips could well be normally from Gatwick, where Oyster and Contactless (and etickets) will operate the gates that were installed there some time ago.

The most likely result for GA is a short-term gain from Penalty Fares and a long-term loss as passengers affected will be saying "never again on the Stansted Express". And it won't just be those hit by the PFNs. Everyone else in those crazy queues will be put off too. Desperate shortsightedness from the "railway".

 

[RailExplorer]

The trick for Stansted Airport is to always use the lift… both going down and up. You avoid all the queuing that way.

 

[gingerheid]

The trick for Stansted Airport is to always use the lift… both going down and up. You avoid all the queuing that way.

I think they've (in a change from the olden times when you met the barrier before you got to the ticket machines...) now included the lifts in their setup.

 

[matt_world2004]

It would be interesting if someone brought a court case for consequential loss because they missed their flight. My guess is that the operator would settle out of court because they wouldn't want precedent being established on what is reasonable delay in exiting a station

 

[Scott1]

This is rather intresting, but I'm not much good with this sort of thing. Could someone set up a survey of how long people think it is reasonable to wait? Say in 3 minute increments, just to see what members on here think?