No direct service from Colne to Blackpool South anymore

[PacerTrain142]

So I don’t know if this has been discussed before but for the last few years there have been no direct services from Colne/Burnley/Blackburn to Blackpool South. For some reason Northern decided to split the service in two so that passengers travelling from East Lancashire to Blackpool (who don’t live near any of the stations served by the Blackpool North to York service) are forced to change at Preston and wait for a connecting service to Blackpool South or Blackpool North, which significantly increases journey times.

Does anyone know why Northern have done this? Surely it would make more sense to have a through service from Colne to Blackpool South (or maybe Blackpool North).

Just a thought - is there any plan or good reason to re-open the line between Blackpool South and Blackpool North or is that a dead horse?

 

[SteveM70]

No idea why, but there was a period after the services were split that the same train formed a Blackpool - Preston and a Preston - Colne about 4 minutes later and vice versa, which created the bizarre situation where you could travel through on the same unit, but you couldn't create a valid itinerary for it because the dwell time was less than the minimum connection time in Preston.

Now they seem to have completely severed the services, as you say

 

[Starmill]

It was done to include Ormskirk in the diagrams. Ormskirk used to need only one unit, now it needs more than that.

 

[AMD]

It was an operational reason when the Ormskirk service became hourly a few years back, the units now normally do a Colne then a trip to Ormskirk.

 

[Parallel]

There are still direct services on a Sunday, just not the other days of the week it seems.

As an example there is a 11:16 Blackpool South to Colne service.

 

[Starmill]

There are still direct services on a Sunday, just not the other days of the week it seems.

As an example there is a 11:16 Blackpool South to Colne service.

Indeed. There is no service between Preston and Ormskirk on Sundays.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Just a thought - is there any plan or good reason to re-open the line between Blackpool South and Blackpool North or is that a dead horse?

Has there ever been a (through) line bridging the gap between Blackpool South and Blackpool North?

Even in its pre 1964 heyday, the line from Blackpool South only ever continued to the one-time fourteen platform terminus at Blackpool Central.

 

[zwk500]

Has there ever been a (through) line bridging the gap between Blackpool South and Blackpool North?

Even in its pre 1964 heyday, the line from Blackpool South only ever continued to the one-time fourteen platform terminus at Blackpool Central.

Doesn't appear to have been: https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sid...70&lon=-3.00888&layers=10rail&right=ESRIWorld

 

[PacerTrain142]

It was done to include Ormskirk in the diagrams. Ormskirk used to need only one unit, now it needs more than that.

It was an operational reason when the Ormskirk service became hourly a few years back, the units now normally do a Colne then a trip to Ormskirk.

So it’s now a Blackpool South to Ormskirk service?

I know for awhile on weekends they starting running 4 car trains from Blackpool South to Preston, but would then reduce it to 2 cars between Preston and Colne, because it was a lot busier between Preston and Blackpool. But instead of uncoupling the other unit and using it somewhere else, they would just leave it connected and put it out of use. So maybe they decided they might as well just run a 4 car train between Preston and Blackpool and a 2 car train between Preston and Colne. But why not continue the service to Blackpool North? I doubt there would be overcrowding problems as there are plenty of other trains that serve the line.

Doesn't appear to have been: https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sid...70&lon=-3.00888&layers=10rail&right=ESRIWorld

My bad, for some reason I thought there was once a railway line connecting Blackpool North and South. Sad to see how much railway has disappeared from the rail network.

 

[Starmill]

So it’s now a Blackpool South to Ormskirk service?

No, it's just that the same train works Blackpool South - Preston, Preston - Colne and Preston - Ormskirk services at different times.

But why not continue the service to Blackpool North? I doubt there would be overcrowding problems as there are plenty of other trains that serve the line.

Because this would use up more units and train crew.

 

[PacerTrain142]

No, it's just that the same train works Blackpool South - Preston, Preston - Colne and Preston - Ormskirk services at different times.

Oh ok, strange way of working things though. And the connection times from East Lancashire to Blackpool South are now really poor. It now takes 2 1/2 hours to travel from Colne to Blackpool South, a journey that only used to take 1 hr and 50 mins. Even Colne to Blackpool North takes 2 hrs and 15 mins. That’s pretty bad considering it takes less than an hour to drive there.

 

[gazzaa2]

Was a football groundhoppers paradise that train. Colne/Nelson/Burnley/Accrington/Blackburn/Bamber Bridge/Preston/Kirkham & Wesham and Blackpool (also change for Fleetwood).

 

[Bald Rick]

Does anyone know why Northern have done this? Surely it would make more sense to have a through service from Colne to Blackpool South (or maybe Blackpool North).

It was done to improve performance and reliability of the services. There haven’t been Colne - Blackpool South services for years. Until last year, the Blackpool South trains ran in a triangular circuit with Colne and Ormskirk, with the down Blackpool South formed from an Ormskirk arrival. However, now, Blackpool South is completely split, and is two dedicated stock diagrams, shuttling up and down with a shunt at Preston.

From my regular trips on the service, the number of people making cross Preston journeys was almost none, except on Saturday mornings towards Blackpool, Saturday and Sunday evenings in return, and in school holidays.

Just a thought - is there any plan or good reason to re-open the line between Blackpool South and Blackpool North or is that a dead horse?

It was never there (beyond Central), and there is no plan as there is no good reason to do so.

 

[PacerTrain142]

It was done to improve performance and reliability of the services. There haven’t been Colne - Blackpool South services for years. Until last year, the Blackpool South trains ran in a triangular circuit with Colne and Ormskirk, with the down Blackpool South formed from an Ormskirk arrival. However, now, Blackpool South is completely split, and is two dedicated stock diagrams, shuttling up and down with a shunt at Preston.

From my regular trips on the service, the number of people making cross Preston journeys was almost none, except on Saturday mornings towards Blackpool, Saturday and Sunday evenings in return, and in school holidays.



It was never there (beyond Central), and there is no plan as there is no good reason to do so.

Still adds 25-40 mins journey time for those people wanting to go from East Lancashire to Blackpool (or one of the other coastal towns on the route) for a day out, so it’s a big inconvenience for them. The services can get really busy during summer weekends with Blackpool Pleasure Beach being a big attraction, and some of those people will be travelling from beyond Preston.

I can’t really see how splitting the service improves reliability, except maybe for the fact that because the line is single track between Kirkham and Wesham and Blackpool South, the turnaround time is very tight, when the train pulls into Blackpool South, it has to almost immediately set off again. So if one train was late, it could also make the next one late as only one train can occupy the line at a time. However, if the unit coming from Ormskirk is late then the Blackpool South train will also be late so I don’t see how it improves reliability. Making more of the line double track would solve this issue.

Even if it did improve reliability, the planning and timing is really bad, they could at least make it so Colne to Preston services connect better with Blackpool South services, at the moment there is a 40 minute wait at Preston which is ridiculous. And why no services to Ormskirk on a Sunday? Odd decision, at least make it a bi-hourly service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they have split it entirely it seems a bit odd they don't just revert to Ormskirk separate with two units passing at Rufford as per the early 90s. Didn't think they had though, I thought the extra unit was on the same 3 way circuit but laid over at Preston for an hour between two parts of the "star".

Ormskirk almost got a Sunday service but along came COVID and it didn't happen.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I can’t really see how splitting the service improves reliability, except maybe for the fact that because the line is single track between Kirkham and Wesham and Blackpool South, the turnaround time is very tight, when the train pulls into Blackpool South, it has to almost immediately set off again. So if one train was late, it could also make the next one late as only one train can occupy the line at a time. However, if the unit coming from Ormskirk is late then the Blackpool South train will also be late so I don’t see how it improves reliability. Making more of the line double track would solve this issue.

Something like 25-27 mins journey time between Blackpool South and Kirkham and Wesham? So, presumably if one service on the line is delayed, subsequent ones then tend to be delayed also, with not much recovery possible?

 

[Bald Rick]

Still adds 25-40 mins journey time for those people wanting to go from East Lancashire to Blackpool (or one of the other coastal towns on the route) for a day out, so it’s a big inconvenience for them

It’s an inconvenience for them (them = not many people), but a much more reliable service for everyone on all the lines concerned who isn’t going from one side of Preston to the other (ie almost everyone)

I can’t really see how splitting the service improves reliability

except maybe for the fact that because the line is single track between Kirkham and Wesham and Blackpool South, the turnaround time is very tight, when the train pulls into Blackpool South, it has to almost immediately set off again. So if one train was late, it could also make the next one late as only one train can occupy the line at a time.

It seems you can see!

However, if the unit coming from Ormskirk is late then the Blackpool South train will also be late so I don’t see how it improves reliability.

The unit doesn’t come from Ormskirk. It is dedicated to Blackpool south. Today‘s units were 150120 and 156465.

Even if it did improve reliability, the planning and timing is really bad, they could at least make it so Colne to Preston services connect better with Blackpool South services, at the moment there is a 40 minute wait at Preston which is ridiculous.

Ah, the famous “I want my connections at Preston perfected, and not worry about anyone else”.

The Colne arrival connects well with services to Wigan, Warrington, Crewe and the Midlands, Blackpool North, and Liverpool. The Colne departure connects well out of services from Glasgow, Barrow, and both Blackpool branches. For an important junction station like Preston, with lots of hourly services, you simply can’t have perfect connections from everywhere to everywhere, and somewhere has to have a long one.

If they have split it entirely it seems a bit odd they don't just revert to Ormskirk separate with two units passing at Rufford as per the early 90s. Didn't think they had though, I thought the extra unit was on the same 3 way circuit but laid over at Preston for an hour between two parts of the "star".

Ormskirk almost got a Sunday service but along came COVID and it didn't happen.

Ormskirk and Colne are paired, with the same units, usually from Platform 3C off peak.
Blackpool South is separate.

 

[biggerisbetter]

Would it be feasible to run Preston to Blackpool South with Battery EMUs in the near future if Northern order some of these units (which I understand may be likely)?

 

[PacerTrain142]

It’s an inconvenience for them (them = not many people), but a much more reliable service for everyone on all the lines concerned who isn’t going from one side of Preston to the other (ie almost everyone)





It seems you can see!



The unit doesn’t come from Ormskirk. It is dedicated to Blackpool south. Today‘s units were 150120 and 156465.



Ah, the famous “I want my connections at Preston perfected, and not worry about anyone else”.

The Colne arrival connects well with services to Wigan, Warrington, Crewe and the Midlands, Blackpool North, and Liverpool. The Colne departure connects well out of services from Glasgow, Barrow, and both Blackpool branches. For an important junction station like Preston, with lots of hourly services, you simply can’t have perfect connections from everywhere to everywhere, and somewhere has to have a long one.



Ormskirk and Colne are paired, with the same units, usually from Platform 3C off peak.
Blackpool South is separate.

Services to Wigan, Warrington, Crewe, Birmingham, Blackpool North and Liverpool all have more frequent services, as they’re on intercity routes, but trains to Blackpool South are only hourly. So if they made the Preston to Blackpool South train leave 30 minutes earlier that would be better for people travelling from East Lancashire to the Blackpool South branch.

Ivê used the line many times in the past when it was Colne to Blackpool South and very rarely had a problem with lateness or reliability. I remember once the train from Blackpool South was cancelled so had to go to Blackpool North but other than that no major issues.

The Blackpool South branch gets very busy in summer so I think it would be a good idea if they extended the double track section or add a passing loop and make the service half hourly during the summer season.

 

[Bald Rick]

Would it be feasible to run Preston to Blackpool South with Battery EMUs in the near future if Northern order some of these units (which I understand may be likely)?

It‘s too much off the wire, but only just. If the wires were extended to Lytham, it would be enough.

Or the branch shortened to St Annes, with the tram coming the other way from Pleasure beach to Lytham. (I’m convinced there’s a case for that, somehow). Would enable a half hourly service on the branch too.

Services to Wigan, Warrington, Crewe, Birmingham, Blackpool North and Liverpool all have more frequent services

Not to Crewe, Birmingham and Liverpool it isn’t.

Ivê used the line many times in the past when it was Colne to Blackpool South and very rarely had a problem with lateness or reliability.

So have I, and have missed several connections at Preston as a result. Or spent money in the pub next door due to cancellations.

The Blackpool South branch gets very busy in summer so I think it would be a good idea if they extended the double track section or add a passing loop and make the service half hourly during the summer season.

Thats not going to happen. Besides, with the tram opening to North station, I suspect some passengers to Blackpool will be going that way in future towards the south side of town.

 

[PacerTrain142]

Would it be feasible to run Preston to Blackpool South with Battery EMUs in the near future if Northern order some of these units (which I understand may be likely)?

Not heard of a battery EMU before. But maybe some kind of light rail system like the Tyne and Wear metro trains or a third rail system sometime in the future (I’m guessing third rail would be cheaper to install and maintain than overhead wires).

It‘s too much off the wire, but only just. If the wires were extended to Lytham, it would be enough.

Or the branch shortened to St Annes, with the tram coming the other way from Pleasure beach to Lytham. (I’m convinced there’s a case for that, somehow). Would enable a half hourly service on the branch too.



Not to Crewe, Birmingham and Liverpool it isn’t.



So have I, and have missed several connections at Preston as a result. Or spent money in the pub next door due to cancellations.




Thats not going to happen. Besides, with the tram opening to North station, I suspect some passengers to Blackpool will be going that way in future towards the south side of town.

To be honest I would suspect there would be far more passengers travelling from East Lancs to Blackpool than from East Lancs to Crewe, Birmingham and Liverpool. Surprised about the services to those places not being more frequent than hourly though considering they’re big places on major intercity routes.

I don’t see why it would be unfeasable to add a passing loop and add an extra DMU, not exactly going to cost the earth.

Is the service actually more reliable now? Even if the train only goes from Blackpool South to Preston and back again, it can still be delayed.

 

[muddythefish]

Not heard of a battery EMU before. But maybe some kind of light rail system like the Tyne and Wear metro trains or a third rail system sometime in the future (I’m guessing third rail would be cheaper to install and maintain than overhead wires).

To be honest I would suspect there would be far more passengers travelling from East Lancs to Blackpool than from East Lancs to Crewe, Birmingham and Liverpool. Surprised about the services to those places not being more frequent than hourly though considering they’re big places on major intercity routes.

I don’t see why it would be unfeasable to add a passing loop and add an extra DMU, not exactly going to cost the earth.

Is the service actually more reliable now? Even if the train only goes from Blackpool South to Preston and back again, it can still be delayed.

Isn't it another example of the railway operating for its own convenience than what passengers want?

Back in the 1960s from Blackburn you could travel to Liverpool and Blackpool direct, as well as Manchester, Leeds and Bradford, and they were all well used. The Blackpool services were cut back to Preston in the 1970s but then reinstated years later after an outcry.

I wasn't aware they had been cut again, and it seems such a backward step.

 

[Neptune]

I don’t see why it would be unfeasable to add a passing loop and add an extra DMU, not exactly going to cost the earth.

Go on then, how much is not exactly costing the earth in your opinion.

Bear in mind I know how much an extra unit (associated maintenance, leasing, fuelling, track access costs etc) and Bald Rick knows how much a passing loop (prep work, ground clearance, track work, signalling etc…) and the associated year round additional staffing required for this will cost.

I suspect it will be considerably more than you think.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don’t see why it would be unfeasable to add a passing loop and add an extra DMU, not exactly going to cost the earth.

The cost was sufficiently earthy that the application for it under the restoring your railway proposal was not successful. Spending tens of millions on infrastructure to run a second train every half hour at a loss (needing at least two more units and 5-6 sets of crews to work them) was evidently not a good idea.

Is the service actually more reliable now? Even if the train only goes from Blackpool South to Preston and back again, it can still be delayed.

I don’t know the figures. But all three legs seem to be.

 

[Starmill]

I don’t see why it would be unfeasable to add a passing loop and add an extra DMU, not exactly going to cost the earth.

There's not currently enough money in the pot to maintain the infrastructure we have to an acceptable standard, or to preserve the frequency of services we already have, let alone finding funding for improvements.

As noted above, the proposed Sunday service between Preston and Ormskirk has been abandoned, and Colne - Preston has been cut back to every two hours on Sundays.

 

[WAO]

The best way to increase capacity on a railway is a longer train (that's what the word "train" means!) not more infrastructure. Even if a service is less frequent, it should carry all the business offered in comfort,not leaving anyone on the platform.

WAO

 

[The Planner]

The best way to increase capacity on a railway is a longer train (that's what the word "train" means!) not more infrastructure. Even if a service is less frequent, it should carry all the business offered in comfort,not leaving anyone on the platform.

WAO

That assumes you don't need platform extensions/infrastructure to deliver that.

 

[Starmill]

The best way to increase capacity on a railway is a longer train (that's what the word "train" means!) not more infrastructure. Even if a service is less frequent, it should carry all the business offered in comfort,not leaving anyone on the platform.

WAO

Longer trains are unnecessary on the South line because, at an hourly frequency, demand is quite low. It is competing with a much more frequent train and tram service to Preston and beyond via Blackpool North, and a selection of more frequent bus services on the other markets.

The only time longer trains are necessary is school holiday weekends, when the four cars are already provided. Some days these services do run at capacity, but realistically longer than four can't be provided, and isn't necessary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Longer trains are unnecessary on the South line because, at an hourly frequency, demand is quite low. It is competing with a much more frequent train and tram service to Preston and beyond via Blackpool North, and a selection of more frequent bus services on the other markets.

The only time longer trains are necessary is school holiday weekends, when the four cars are already provided. Some days these services do run at capacity, but realistically longer than four can't be provided, and isn't necessary.

I think a lot of people don't realise how long Blackpool front is. The South line is useful for the Pleasure Beach (though North and a tram ride is hardly terrible) and for Lytham, but Blackpool South station itself is located in an extremely grotty suburb and is mostly really of use to locals*, it's nowhere near most of the tourist stuff bar the Sandcastle/South Pier.

North is in the centre, South (in location terms) is not far off being to Blackpool as Bletchley is to MKC, with over a mile's walk to anything of real consequence bar kebab shops and cheap doss-houses.

* And anyone staying at the adjacent Premier Inn, but you'll feel like you want to watch your back while walking across to it at night.

 

[Starmill]

I think a lot of people don't realise how long Blackpool front is. The South line is useful for the Pleasure Beach (though North and a tram ride is hardly terrible) and for Lytham, but Blackpool South station itself is located in an extremely grotty suburb and is mostly really of use to locals*, it's nowhere near most of the tourist stuff bar the Sandcastle/South Pier.

North is in the centre, South (in location terms) is not far off being to Blackpool as Bletchley is to MKC, with over a mile's walk to anything of real consequence bar kebab shops and cheap doss-houses.

* And anyone staying at the adjacent Premier Inn, but you'll feel like you want to watch your back while walking across to it at night.

The front is indeed very long but most people won't be walking will they? They'll be using the tramway which in a few weeks will operate direct to North station.