Excess fares

[redreni]

I seem to recall seeing expert advice on here to the effect that if (for example) you have an off-peak return and your plans change so that you have to travel back in the evening peak, you need only pay the excess to convert the return portion of your ticket to anytime (rather than buy an entirely new ticket) and, furthermore, while you have to pay the excess fare at the earliest opportunity, you can start your journey if there's no facility to pay the excess fare at the station where you start your return leg? I'm sure I'll be corrected swiftly if that's not right!

At the moment most gated stations' ticket offices will be open during the evening peak. I'm sure there are exceptions, but as a general rule most stations are either ungated or have a ticket office with reasonable opening hours (or, at least, revenue inspectors with hand-held ticket machines who could excess a ticket for you). Which is fortunate because I'm not sure an off-peak ticket is going to get you through the barriers at peak time, will it?

If it becomes the norm for stations to have ticket barriers but no ticket office, how do people see this panning out? Will staff at the barriers have to adopt a policy of letting people through on an off-peak ticket if they say they intend to pay the excess on board?

Is there any sensible reason why online ticket retailers shouldn't be compelled to offer the option to excess an e-ticket after you've bought it? Simple off-peak to anytime or advance to off-peak or advance to anytime excesses seem like a reasonable thing that should be offered. But what about changes of route?

What practical advice would you give to a passenger who arrives at the station to start the return leg of their journey with the return portion of an off-peak ticket that they wish to excess to anytime if there is no ticket office, their ticket doesn't open the barrier and staff won't let them through?

Also, I presume the idea is that any station that loses its ticket office would also lose its excess fares window, if it has one?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is there any sensible reason why online ticket retailers shouldn't be compelled to offer the option to excess an e-ticket after you've bought it? Simple off-peak to anytime or advance to off-peak or advance to anytime excesses seem like a reasonable thing that should be offered. But what about changes of route?

You raise some good query points, but as regards that particular point, I can't see it ever being possible to excess an advance to either an off-peak or anytime ticket.

 

[redreni]

You raise some good query points, but as regards that particular point, I can't see it ever being possible to excess an advance to either an off-peak or anytime ticket.

The ticket office at Eastleigh did it for me this season.

I'd booked an advance single for the return journey but I had to take a bus from the football ground to the station after the game and it was going to be a bit tight. When I arrived at Eastleigh before the game I just asked speculatively whether it was possible to pay an excess to travel on the train after the one I'd booked and if so, how much it would be. If he'd said £30 or something I'd have risked it or left a bit early if there'd been a lot of stoppage time, but he did it for about a tenner. And it wasn't a change to a different train as I'd asked, either, it was an excess to a flexible off-peak (or possibly a super off-peak) ticket.

Not saying he should have done it, necessarily, but I'm pretty sure I didn't dream it!

 

[Hadders]

Excess from Off Peak Return to Anytime Return is the full difference between the fares, not half the difference as it is with a change of route excess. Ot used to be half the difference but it was changed about 10 years ago.

As for what happens when ticket offices close remember the proposal is that staff will be visible on the concourse and they should be able to issue an excess, or at least allow you through the ticket barriers so that you can obtain it at the first opportunity. We do need to realise that the current set up is far from perfect when it comes to excesses - while the majority of ticket office staff are fanstatic there is a significant minority who aren't and you often have to 'shop around' to obtain excesses as many staff either haven't been trained, or are unwilling to sell them.

We are also likely to see the a further rollout of single leg ticketing at some point which will reduce the need for excess tickets.

 

[Watershed]

I seem to recall seeing expert advice on here to the effect that if (for example) you have an off-peak return and your plans change so that you have to travel back in the evening peak, you need only pay the excess to convert the return portion of your ticket to anytime (rather than buy an entirely new ticket) and, furthermore, while you have to pay the excess fare at the earliest opportunity, you can start your journey if there's no facility to pay the excess fare at the station where you start your return leg? I'm sure I'll be corrected swiftly if that's not right!

At the moment most gated stations' ticket offices will be open during the evening peak. I'm sure there are exceptions, but as a general rule most stations are either ungated or have a ticket office with reasonable opening hours (or, at least, revenue inspectors with hand-held ticket machines who could excess a ticket for you). Which is fortunate because I'm not sure an off-peak ticket is going to get you through the barriers at peak time, will it?

If it becomes the norm for stations to have ticket barriers but no ticket office, how do people see this panning out? Will staff at the barriers have to adopt a policy of letting people through on an off-peak ticket if they say they intend to pay the excess on board?

Is there any sensible reason why online ticket retailers shouldn't be compelled to offer the option to excess an e-ticket after you've bought it? Simple off-peak to anytime or advance to off-peak or advance to anytime excesses seem like a reasonable thing that should be offered. But what about changes of route?

What practical advice would you give to a passenger who arrives at the station to start the return leg of their journey with the return portion of an off-peak ticket that they wish to excess to anytime if there is no ticket office, their ticket doesn't open the barrier and staff won't let them through?

Also, I presume the idea is that any station that loses its ticket office would also lose its excess fares window, if it has one?

There is no penalty for obtaining an Off-Peak to Anytime excess onboard the train, even if there were ticketing facilities at the origin station. However, there is no entitlement to be let through a barrier line without paying the excess prior to travel. Generally speaking barrier staff would have a way of selling tickets (otherwise, what do they do with ticketless arrivals?) and so that same method would usually suffice to sell you the excess. However, there are certainly exceptions to this rule.

It wouldn't necessarily be a straightforward process for an online retailer to issue an excess, in part due to various industry-imposed "red tape". Most who offer a self-serve functionality to change tickets do so by processing a refund and selling a new ticket, which is often easier - although it incurs higher costs to the retailer.

If there's no ticket office, the ticket doesn't open the barrier, staff won't let you through and you can't obtain the "excess" through your retailer, I'd advise buying a new ticket (or whatever else the barrier staff claim you have to do) and then claiming back the difference between this and what the excess should have cost.

You raise some good query points, but as regards that particular point, I can't see it ever being possible to excess an advance to either an off-peak or anytime ticket.

It's always been possible, albeit usually through the process known as Change of Journey rather than as an excess. Unlike excessing an Off-Peak to an Anytime ticket, it does have to be done before boarding the train if there are ticketing facilities.

 

[redreni]

Thanks for these responses. Very interesting.

Presumably, then, concourse staff aren't willingly going to sell tickets to people if they could buy them from the ticket vending machines, as that would defeat the object of closing the ticket office, but we can expect they should sell excesses? Presumably also any other ticket the ticket machine won't sell, such as PlusBus add-ons (where the train ticket is already held), tickets to London zones or zone boundaries etc? And of course you'd expect them to sell tickets to passengers who may struggle to use the ticket machines such as blind or partially sighted passengers.

I can't imagine, however, it will be anything other than significantly more difficult to get these tickets if ticket offices close?

If the obstacle to making e-tickets as easy to excess as paper tickets is industry-imposed red tape, it strikes me it's a perfectly reasonable argument (even if not a winning argument) to say ticket office closures should only go ahead when that red tape has been removed and online e-ticket retailing brought up to the same standard as ticket-office-based ticket retailing?

 

[Paul Kelly]

Excess from Off Peak Return to Anytime Return is the full difference between the fares, not half the difference as it is with a change of route excess. Ot used to be half the difference but it was changed about 10 years ago.

Wasn't the change in rules for overdistance excesses? To me it doesn't make sense that you could ever have paid half the difference to change off-peak to anytime; it seems like a big and obvious loophole.

 

[redreni]

Wasn't the change in rules for overdistance excesses? To me it doesn't make sense that you could ever have paid half the difference to change off-peak to anytime; it seems like a big and obvious loophole.

If you go back to the original purpose of charging different fares at peak and off-peak times then it makes perfect sense that a passenger who travels out and back at peak times should pay more than one who only travels in the peak in one direction (who, in turn, should pay more than a passenger who travels off-peak both ways).

That better meets the objective of encouraging passengers to try to avoid the peaks where they can, since if you make them pay a peak fare on the outbound leg even if they travel off-peak, they're not going to make any special effort to avoid the peak, are they?

The fact the option to buy an off-peak return then excess it was (and remains) essentially a secret as far as the average passenger is concerned undermines that argument, of course! And means the potential benefit of the system in terms of relieving overcrowding at peak times was never realised to any significant degree, since people won't be nudged by a concession they don't know about.

 

[Hadders]

Wasn't the change in rules for overdistance excesses? To me it doesn't make sense that you could ever have paid half the difference to change off-peak to anytime; it seems like a big and obvious loophole.

ISTR it changed back in 2010. Mentioned as half the difference in this very old post.

Excess Tickets

Excess tickets are probably one of the least understood elements of railway ticketing but however in my opinion a great benefit to the travelling public in as much as they take into consideration what the passenger has already paid and can also facilitate "circular" journeys where the passenger...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Haywain]

ISTR it changed back in 2010. Mentioned as half the difference in this very old post.

The post you quote states, correctly, that for change of ticket type the full difference is payable. And I am not aware that it was ever anything different.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The post you quote states, correctly, that for change of ticket type the full difference is payable. And I am not aware that it was ever anything different.

Indeed. So, half the difference for a (more expensive) one-way change of route excess, but the full difference for a change of ticket type? Any other excess types?

 

[trainJam]

For the removal of doubt, I have some questions about using the NRCOT to support the topics in this thread regarding time-restricted excess fares (but I believe this equally applies to the route or break of journey sub conditions).

For instance, suppose you were forced to defend yourself against staff who insist on enacting NRCOT 9.2 (e.g. 9.2.2 PF, see thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-fare-by-northern-for-off-peak-ticket.249216/ - Thankfully, the appeal was successful, but, any of the 9.2 outcomes are unfavourable) which begins "If you are unable to present a valid Ticket". Assume that an off-peak ticket is not valid in this scenario.

There is no penalty for obtaining an Off-Peak to Anytime excess onboard the train, even if there were ticketing facilities at the origin station.

9.5:

9.5
Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak”
Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are
travelling; or
9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or
9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and
the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

Does 9.5 ("you will be charged the difference") override 9.2 ("If you are unable to present a valid Ticket")?

 

[Watershed]

For the removal of doubt, I have some questions about using the NRCOT to support the topics in this thread regarding time-restricted excess fares (but I believe this equally applies to the route or break of journey sub conditions).

For instance, suppose you were forced to defend yourself against staff who insist on enacting NRCOT 9.2 (e.g. 9.2.2 PF, see thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-fare-by-northern-for-off-peak-ticket.249216/ - Thankfully, the appeal was successful, but, any of the 9.2 outcomes are unfavourable) which begins "If you are unable to present a valid Ticket". Assume that an off-peak ticket is not valid in this scenario.



9.5:

Does 9.5 ("you will be charged the difference") override 9.2 ("If you are unable to present a valid Ticket")?

Yes; firstly, the general maxim applies that specific terms override more general terms. 9.5 deals specifically with travelling with an Off-Peak ticket at a restricted time, where 9.2 is a more general term that applies just as much to someone without a ticket at all.

Furthermore, 9.5 would lack purpose if its application was subject to the sole discretion of the TOC; there is nothing that suggests this is the case. Courts try to interpret contracts such as to reflect the parties' intentions - why would the rail industry include a term that they intended not to have apply in the exact circumstances it describes?

Finally, an Off-Peak ticket isn't fundamentally invalid at the restricted times, it merely requires payment of the excess fare. So long as that fare is paid, 9.2 is not triggered.

I'm sure that the resident solicitors on the forum may wish to chime in with other reasons or explanations, but suffice it to say, it isn't down to TOCs' discretion as to whether 9.5 is applied.

 

[trainJam]

Thanks for the explanation!

I find it annoying how National Rail Enquires still suggests that you may be penalised:

If you travel outside of the permitted times or routes you will have to pay the difference between the price of your ticket and the Anytime ticket. You may also be liable for a Penalty Fare.

Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak Tickets | National Rail

Buy your train ticket at any time and travel in off-peak hours with an Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak ticket

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Accessed 14th December 2023

 

[island]

Yes, this can be a practical problem. When a Penalty Fare is improperly issued the passenger is caused the annoyance of having to appeal it, and the law as written states if someone is issued a PF they must still pay the single fare for their journey even if the appeal succeeds!